New CA regulations - Gun Safety Devices

MrJones · January 13, 2002, 08:20 PM

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Recently, I purchased my first handgun here in the state of California. This

transfer occurred Dec, 2001, so I was not subject to the new laws effective

1/1/2002. As posted in another thread, CA now requires a certified safety

device accompanying every gun sold or transferred in the state. One way to

avoid having to purchase a certified safety device with every firearm

purchase is to have an approved gun safe satisfying certain requirements as

stated on the following webpages:

http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/fsdcertlist.htm

http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/gunsafe.htm

I began looking deeper into this new law and how it may affect the future

ownership of guns in CA. As I was reading the Penal Code, I came upon the

following subsection (12088.4 CA PC):

- ----BEGIN QUOTATION----

12088.4. (a) If at any time the Attorney General determines that a

gun safe or firearms safety device subject to the provisions of this

article and sold after January 1, 2002, does not conform with the

standards required by subdivision (a) of Section 12088.1 or Section

12088.2, the Attorney General may order the recall and replacement of

the gun safe or firearms safety device, or order that the gun safe

or firearm safety device be brought into conformity with those

requirements. If the firearms safety device cannot be separated from

the firearm without damaging the firearm, the Attorney General may

order the recall and replacement of the firearm. If the firearms

safety device can be separated and reattached to the firearm without

damaging the firearm, the licensed manufacturer or licensed firearms

dealer shall immediately provide a conforming replacement as

instructed by the Attorney General.

- ----END QUOTATION----

Note the last part of the subsection, "If the firearms safety device cannot

be separated from the firearm without damaging the firearm, the Attorney

General may order the recall and replacement of the firearm." Though it may

not seem like much now, I believe this section is making it even easier for

the state to outlaw all guns. Imagine in a few years where "integrated

locking devices which may not be altered or removed without rendering the

firearm inoperable" is a requirement for guns to be sold or transferred.

Though a hurdle, gun manufacturers will be able to engineer integrated

locking devices such as those found on HK's, Remingtons, and Springfields.

Wait a few more years and external safety devices will be deemed as

insufficient in preventing firearms related crimes and deaths. At the same

time, the "integrated safety devices" will also be deemed insufficient

requiring modification and re-engineering. But wait! The integrated safety

devices cannot be altered or removed without damaging the firearms

permanently as required by previous laws. This means that all those guns

that were previously legal are now illegal. And no more firearms can be

bought or transferred in the state of California.

I realize that many of you will tell me to leave this state and others should

do the same. This is an old response. Those of us who choose to stay are

doing so because of our family, work, or religious beliefs (among other

reasons) and will probably never leave. Those of us who are thinking of

leaving are trying. I just wanted to express my ideas regarding this new

"Aroner-Scott-Hayden Firearms Safety Act of 1999" to promote discussion and

to provide my opinion on the current state of affairs with respect to

firearms in this state.

I am a student and the above is an expression of my ideas and opinions which

may be incorrect as I am not an expert on politics or the law. If I have

mispoken or am incorrect, please let me know so that I may learn from my

mistakes and make the necessary corrections.

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Chaingun · January 15, 2002, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Door hinges shall be protected to prevent the removal of the door. Protective features include, but are not limited to: hinges
not exposed to the outside, interlocking door designs, dead bars, jeweler’s lugs and active or inactive locking bolts.

Gun cabinets are out, and so are safes with exposed hinges. Safe manufacturers have been working on safe designs for 1000's of man years. And now they are told, with a 10 minute statement, these designs are WRONG!!! Exposed hinge designs typically have the internal arms, mounted on the door, which hold the safe door intact, following a hinge compromise.

longeyes · January 15, 2002, 12:30 PM

I think the real intent is for the gun safes to hold the gunowners, not the guns. Just give 'em time.

KimberLady · January 15, 2002, 07:43 PM

Even better, guys, is that the Pro-Lok is out of stock and won't have more until February or so. (Pro-Lok is pretty much the main trigger lock that's "certified" for handguns and some long guns)

So unless you've got the money to buy a floor safe, you are essentially S.O.L until the locks come into stock. Fortunately, hubby got a bonus last year and we have a floor safe. But most people don't. What about apartment dwellers on the 2nd floor? My safe weighs 750 POUNDS! They'd be in deep doo-doo if they tried to put a floor safe in upstairs.

What I find odd is that these laws are supposed to protect the children (yeah right). Two kids were shot in New York City today, which has some of the most stringent gun laws in the country. How'd that happen?

BECAUSE THE FREAKIN' LAWS DON'T WORK, THAT'S WHY!!!

I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but it still burns me.

Mr.Jones, I believe you are correct, and the ultimate goal of these goals in the PRK are to limit gun buying to those who are above the $150k/year salary range and/or those who are connected. Period.

Bowser · January 15, 2002, 11:03 PM

If you sign an affadavit that you have a gun safe, you are exempt from this law.

If I didn't already have a safe, I would still sign the affadavit anyway.

These laws will only affect you if you choose to obey them.

If you choose to obey them, then you get what you deserve.

So much for "my cold dead hands" eh?

Bowser.

MrJones · January 15, 2002, 11:30 PM

I understand it only requires the signing of an affadavit. I also realize it's nearly impossible for them to enforce the law. The only situations where I see application of the mentioned law are when the DA is trying to charge you with one crime, s/he can add on another charge. For example, if I'm involved in a self-defense shooting and the DA learns that I didn't have the safe, I may (or may not) be prosecuted for the shooting (we can't really defend ourselves in this state

). I would definitely be charged for not having a safe and probably perjury.

My point is that the wording of the law allows for them to *easily* ban guns in the next few years.

Rosedog · January 15, 2002, 11:39 PM

Kalifornia residents note: Something to think about very, very carefull! Do you want to wait to get the trigger lock or do you want Kalifornia to know that you have a "approved" safe that is capable of holding a "whole bunch of guns".

Know this; when you bought your handgun in Kalifornia, you are automatically registered with the state as a handgun owner by gun serial number, name, address, SSN and everything else they asked you on your state registration form. If you show evidence of a "State approved" gun-safe, guess what? The State now knows you have a lot more guns than just one recently purchased hadgun. Think about it!!!!

I had three Kalifornia law enforcement officers (close friends) warn me of this. AND THEY ALL DO NOT TRUST THE CALIFORNIA JUSTICE DEPARTMENT!

Rosedog · January 15, 2002, 11:39 PM

Kalifornia residents note: Something to think about very, very carefull! Do you want to wait to get the trigger lock or do you want Kalifornia to know that you have a "approved" safe that is capable of holding a "whole bunch of guns".

Know this; when you bought your handgun in Kalifornia, you are automatically registered with the state as a handgun owner by gun serial number, name, address, SSN and everything else they asked you on your state registration form. If you show evidence of a "State approved" gun-safe, guess what? The State now knows you have a lot more guns than just one recently purchased hadgun. Think about it!!!!

I had three Kalifornia law enforcement officers (close friends) warn me of this. AND THEY ALL DO NOT TRUST THE CALIFORNIA JUSTICE DEPARTMENT!

January 13, 2002, 08:20 PM	#1
MrJones Junior Member Join Date: June 3, 2001 Posts: 12	Making all guns illegal -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Recently, I purchased my first handgun here in the state of California. This transfer occurred Dec, 2001, so I was not subject to the new laws effective 1/1/2002. As posted in another thread, CA now requires a certified safety device accompanying every gun sold or transferred in the state. One way to avoid having to purchase a certified safety device with every firearm purchase is to have an approved gun safe satisfying certain requirements as stated on the following webpages: http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/fsdcertlist.htm http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/gunsafe.htm I began looking deeper into this new law and how it may affect the future ownership of guns in CA. As I was reading the Penal Code, I came upon the following subsection (12088.4 CA PC): - ----BEGIN QUOTATION---- 12088.4. (a) If at any time the Attorney General determines that a gun safe or firearms safety device subject to the provisions of this article and sold after January 1, 2002, does not conform with the standards required by subdivision (a) of Section 12088.1 or Section 12088.2, the Attorney General may order the recall and replacement of the gun safe or firearms safety device, or order that the gun safe or firearm safety device be brought into conformity with those requirements. If the firearms safety device cannot be separated from the firearm without damaging the firearm, the Attorney General may order the recall and replacement of the firearm. If the firearms safety device can be separated and reattached to the firearm without damaging the firearm, the licensed manufacturer or licensed firearms dealer shall immediately provide a conforming replacement as instructed by the Attorney General. - ----END QUOTATION---- Note the last part of the subsection, "If the firearms safety device cannot be separated from the firearm without damaging the firearm, the Attorney General may order the recall and replacement of the firearm." Though it may not seem like much now, I believe this section is making it even easier for the state to outlaw all guns. Imagine in a few years where "integrated locking devices which may not be altered or removed without rendering the firearm inoperable" is a requirement for guns to be sold or transferred. Though a hurdle, gun manufacturers will be able to engineer integrated locking devices such as those found on HK's, Remingtons, and Springfields. Wait a few more years and external safety devices will be deemed as insufficient in preventing firearms related crimes and deaths. At the same time, the "integrated safety devices" will also be deemed insufficient requiring modification and re-engineering. But wait! The integrated safety devices cannot be altered or removed without damaging the firearms permanently as required by previous laws. This means that all those guns that were previously legal are now illegal. And no more firearms can be bought or transferred in the state of California. I realize that many of you will tell me to leave this state and others should do the same. This is an old response. Those of us who choose to stay are doing so because of our family, work, or religious beliefs (among other reasons) and will probably never leave. Those of us who are thinking of leaving are trying. I just wanted to express my ideas regarding this new "Aroner-Scott-Hayden Firearms Safety Act of 1999" to promote discussion and to provide my opinion on the current state of affairs with respect to firearms in this state. I am a student and the above is an expression of my ideas and opinions which may be incorrect as I am not an expert on politics or the law. If I have mispoken or am incorrect, please let me know so that I may learn from my mistakes and make the necessary corrections. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 6.5.8 iQEVAwUBPEIkGNcD3SReI4AjAQHqdwf+J2lhxRgYHlwYKBjOR31ZV6o7sGJawe91 //oqGK95qvvYtWRf/rlsI3WcuDFFwpqX0dTeeWxWh6LB1X4WylOElUCXVpzRxxis Tb+dKgqIqtnOtBBycBE9KqmfWtNmlq+d10hu6LC5haOSG3cF/MKVrzJfzRtCtKqS ZceUkkDBLKGp45sOlMeuJ+YaD0jjGMy/72EjImr6B79zBzKVtSEJ+LIkXP1h6Ez4 pj0Oya7wt5gYuIM9k0oO+iYA+L2GB3xnfoxaMrYhMyvwLgOvkFM4H/ykkHpit/T9 mFnqqG+TJKN6ZeQ1lQL383Ab/eintkSkh33ke0kbdzrgYKUYr4QrYw== =3Ovn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- __________________ Go here for my PGP public key: http://ieng9.ucsd.edu/~avnguyen/pgp.html Last edited by MrJones; January 14, 2002 at 10:24 PM.

January 15, 2002, 12:30 PM	#3
longeyes Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2000 Location: True West Posts: 1,350	I think the real intent is for the gun safes to hold the gunowners, not the guns. Just give 'em time. __________________ "You come far, Pilgrim." "Feels like far." "Were it worth the trouble?" "Ah...what trouble?" ~Jeremiah Johnson

January 15, 2002, 07:43 PM	#4
KimberLady Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2001 Location: Lounging about Posts: 150	Even better, guys, is that the Pro-Lok is out of stock and won't have more until February or so. (Pro-Lok is pretty much the main trigger lock that's "certified" for handguns and some long guns) So unless you've got the money to buy a floor safe, you are essentially S.O.L until the locks come into stock. Fortunately, hubby got a bonus last year and we have a floor safe. But most people don't. What about apartment dwellers on the 2nd floor? My safe weighs 750 POUNDS! They'd be in deep doo-doo if they tried to put a floor safe in upstairs. What I find odd is that these laws are supposed to protect the children (yeah right). Two kids were shot in New York City today, which has some of the most stringent gun laws in the country. How'd that happen? BECAUSE THE FREAKIN' LAWS DON'T WORK, THAT'S WHY!!! I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but it still burns me. Mr.Jones, I believe you are correct, and the ultimate goal of these goals in the PRK are to limit gun buying to those who are above the $150k/year salary range and/or those who are connected. Period. __________________ Aequam memento rebus in arduis servare mentem Remember to keep a clear head in difficult times

January 15, 2002, 11:30 PM	#6
MrJones Junior Member Join Date: June 3, 2001 Posts: 12	Obeying laws I understand it only requires the signing of an affadavit. I also realize it's nearly impossible for them to enforce the law. The only situations where I see application of the mentioned law are when the DA is trying to charge you with one crime, s/he can add on another charge. For example, if I'm involved in a self-defense shooting and the DA learns that I didn't have the safe, I may (or may not) be prosecuted for the shooting (we can't really defend ourselves in this state ). I would definitely be charged for not having a safe and probably perjury. My point is that the wording of the law allows for them to easily ban guns in the next few years. __________________ Go here for my PGP public key: http://ieng9.ucsd.edu/~avnguyen/pgp.html

January 15, 2002, 11:03 PM	#5
Bowser Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2001 Posts: 257	If you sign an affadavit that you have a gun safe, you are exempt from this law. If I didn't already have a safe, I would still sign the affadavit anyway. These laws will only affect you if you choose to obey them. If you choose to obey them, then you get what you deserve. So much for "my cold dead hands" eh? Bowser.

January 15, 2002, 11:39 PM	#7
Rosedog Junior Member Join Date: January 1, 2002 Location: Southern California Posts: 11	Kalifornia residents note: Something to think about very, very carefull! Do you want to wait to get the trigger lock or do you want Kalifornia to know that you have a "approved" safe that is capable of holding a "whole bunch of guns". Know this; when you bought your handgun in Kalifornia, you are automatically registered with the state as a handgun owner by gun serial number, name, address, SSN and everything else they asked you on your state registration form. If you show evidence of a "State approved" gun-safe, guess what? The State now knows you have a lot more guns than just one recently purchased hadgun. Think about it!!!! I had three Kalifornia law enforcement officers (close friends) warn me of this. AND THEY ALL DO NOT TRUST THE CALIFORNIA JUSTICE DEPARTMENT!