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Old November 30, 2001, 10:45 AM   #1
Howling Moose
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AK47...? M16....? AR15...? Urban tactical

So, you've been asked before - if there's a long thread on this question, steer me there. Best urban assault protection piece ?(value counts...of course LesBaer makes great stuph...but who's got $1,900+ in the spare change account?)

I'm looking to offer 1 or 2 urban assault rifles with tactical blades (fixed and folders) and semi-autos when we open The Blayde'N Barrel after January 1st. Blade lines are set...semi-auto's are set.

For your close in (150 yards or less) skirmish, the AK47 being the weapon of choice? Taking it to 300-500 yards, an AR15?

If there's the "unknown super manufacturer" or source nobody seems to know about, list 'em here (ie. Rock River Arms)

THANKS!!!
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Old November 30, 2001, 11:56 AM   #2
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The picture speaks for itself as to what I would choose any day of the week!

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Old November 30, 2001, 12:24 PM   #3
M1911
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What is a "tactical blade?" A bayonet?

M1911
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Old November 30, 2001, 12:32 PM   #4
USMCsilver
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For those who might be curious:

Up top:
Pre-ban Oly Arms lower
FN Receiver
Wilson HBAR
Bushmaster retract. stock
Leepers sight rail
M3 Tactical Illuminator
Laser sight
Tasco PDP3 red dot scope
Magazine clamp
Colt bayonet

On bottom:
Bushmaster Y2K Limited lower
DPMS Complete A3 flattop upper HBAR freefloated
Bushness 6x18 50mm scope
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Old November 30, 2001, 12:49 PM   #5
Howling Moose
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What IS a tactical blade...take a peek!

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/Album...a=13913206&f=0

Mad Dog Blades were used by the SEALs for years...still the blade of choice for CQC (close quarters combat).

When you're inside the magic 20 ft. arena...a good blade can be a lifesaver.

Last edited by Howling Moose; November 30, 2001 at 01:55 PM.
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Old November 30, 2001, 12:58 PM   #6
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Bad link. It takes me back to this thread...
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Old November 30, 2001, 01:57 PM   #7
Howling Moose
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Retry web address...

If only computers were as simple as "point...fire!"
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Old November 30, 2001, 04:11 PM   #8
Keith J
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ugly mall ninja stuff...
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Old November 30, 2001, 04:53 PM   #9
USMCsilver
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To each his own...
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Old November 30, 2001, 08:02 PM   #10
M1911
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I'm with Keith. With all that tactical, black nylon stuff, all I need now is a my Mall Ninja boots so I can walk up walls

(There are few things that get me more than the overuse of the word "tactical." Paint it black, call it tactical, and then mark up the price 25 %)

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Old November 30, 2001, 09:00 PM   #11
Howling Moose
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http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bi...i?action=intro

Well, well - you guys have it together. Dang, I thought the SEAL's and Rangers knew their business when it came to TACTICAL blades?

OK,...when your weapon jams...or you're only 6 feet from the guy who's gonna decapitate you with a clever... and trying to pull your 1911 or AR15 just don't get it - what'cha gonna do??? Pull out your johnson and impress'em to death?
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Old November 30, 2001, 09:07 PM   #12
Art Eatman
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My problem with all this is the fundamental question of, "What's the point?" What's all this stuff needed for?

Don't misunderstand: I'm happy for folks to buy this stuff, if they want black toys. I just can't see any point to spending the money on it.

As far as any PROBABLE urban defense needs, knowing how to quickly reload a single-shot shotgun will serve as well as any of these critters. That's been proven over and over, for well beyond a century.

I have yet to read of an instance in the last half-century or so where anything more than some handgun or most any kind of shotgun didn't prove sufficient for a homeowner to deal with Urban Bad Guys.

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Old November 30, 2001, 09:16 PM   #13
Bob Locke
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If you're talking about really urban, then I'll take a good pump shotgun.

I guess from among the choices you're wanting us to make, I'd probably take the AK-47 based solely on ammo and magazine cost.
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Old November 30, 2001, 09:25 PM   #14
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Art....

Howling Moose.....you might be suprised at the level of experience of some here. Some even currantly active.

Sam
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Old November 30, 2001, 09:52 PM   #15
krept
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Hahaha... funny replies.


(waitta minute... am I confused? This is a fellow member looking to open up a new store, asking for advice as to which merchandise he is going to stock. Could be way off base and googly eyed from the reverend Beam, but I'm taking a shot...)

#1. I'm an AK guy. I bought it when I lived in an urban area (downtown Phoenix), so that would be my pick for the question at hand.

#2. That said. NICE collection USMCsilver! If I had that I too would be proud indeed. NICE.

#3. If I were a dealer, my choice would be the AR for several reasons. (and a reputable manufacturer with a good warranty). The debate will go on and on and on. If you get the AK, are you going to stock the 7.62x39 round (can't find these at many local gun stores in phoenix, believe it or not...)? Are you going to go with the Romanian NIB ones, the more expensive but used parts Bulgarian ones? The VEPRs?

If you go with the Bushmaster AR, seems like you have a pretty damn solid start. American made, with a warranty. Just don't recommend crappy mags.


#4. I don't know where things went awry but I'll take a blade over my right elbow or left jab any day of the week. Side story - I was messing around in a martial arts place out here in phoenix looking for some good focus mits... met a guy that teaches philipino martial arts there from cali. He was very skilled with a knife and even though I'm a big fella and know my way around Muay thai, some stickfighting and brazilian jiujuitsu, this smaller dude would have sliced 3 of me up had he had one of those blades. A good blade like those with some solid skills will take some animal meat out of someone. I could ramble on, but it suffices to say that layered defense is the best bet and I won't leave home without my spyderco endura.

#5. Personally, although I prefer the AK as my platform for the dusty desert, I truly believe that you can get more out of the AR platform, provided you have equal skills, use good magazines and maintain your weapon.

Friday Night Fights coming on... cheers! I'll always support the local guys first.
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Old November 30, 2001, 10:12 PM   #16
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Hey USMCsilver,

There actually IS a rifle somewhere under all that hardware, right? Or are you just pulling our leg?
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Old November 30, 2001, 10:12 PM   #17
Jack Carson
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Art, Shssssh! Of course, you're right but don't tell my wife!

Dang it! I have enough trouble justifying my "black guns" without you blabbing about what will suffice. You are absolutely correct and I will take issue with anyone who disagrees with your point. A simple shotgun will suffice for almost anyone or any event that takes place.

However, I really love carrying my little Bushy 14.5" while walking the dogs or checking livestock, etc. I can whack a coyote or feral dog a lot farther out with it than my old cheapo 870. A few months ago I whacked my first truly rabid animal with it.

In that instance, my shotgun would have probably been a better choice--But I was carrying the Bushmaster because I LIKE to carry it.

A single shot shotgun would have served as well IF I were carrying it. I know me well enough to know I would not have been.

Take care of yourself, jack
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Old November 30, 2001, 10:15 PM   #18
Howling Moose
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...ahhh, to the point!

Thanks...well said and to the original point.

We've been selling blades for years...when 9/11 broke, Special Op's calls for MD knives flooded the maker - thanks to the former Commander in Chief (gag) seems the military issue recently is real "mall-foder"...
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Old November 30, 2001, 10:31 PM   #19
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Quote:
dsk -- Hey USMCsilver, There actually IS a rifle somewhere under all that hardware, right? Or are you just pulling our leg?
LOL, that's a good one!
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Old November 30, 2001, 11:46 PM   #20
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I guess most folks here like the jam-o-matic I read an artical somewhere on the web about thunder ranch and that it was a school where you tested your self and your rifles, according to it the ARs could not keep up. THey only like that rifle because it looks mean. But for urban the AK wins agianst anything hands down not the 74 but the 47. The 74 and AR15 shoot a bullet that is not good at penetrating thin plates of metal, the little 5.56 and 5.45 lose 35% of thier bullet mass and deflect going through windshields. The suck agianst brick. The main reason for knowing this is reading stories in Chechnya where Russian troops traded in thier 74 for the older 47. I heard some stories from U.S SF guys saying the penetration of the 5.56 sucked agianst brick walls ect... Don't worry though about urban tactical I doubt any of us will ever be in such a situation. Remember this is the biggest anti-AK board you mianly have bolt action and lever guys here who's idea of a SHTF weapon is an out dated 45-70 you can't hardley get ammo for. I am sure some one here will say shotgun is the best for urban. This is a false statement wieght of ammo,limited ammo,slow rate of fire, and slow reload time. You also gotta love those pimped out AR15 just like the pimped out SKS, worthless more parts makes moving quick harder. If you are going to use all that crap on an AR for the wieght you might as well be carrying an HK91 or FN-FAL or M1A. They are .308 which is not perfered because of the wieght and movement restrictions. Pimped out AR15, SKS, make great pictures and movies but thats about it. Even the AK with the scopes is not feasible. Bi-pods are useless once you learn to shoot with out one, with a 7.62x39mm, 5.56x45mm rifles ( though ok and feasible with .308 guns.) Anyway this is once agian fantasy talk for I hope and don't think anyone here will be in a urban situation.

Last edited by Conformer; December 1, 2001 at 12:15 AM.
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Old December 1, 2001, 11:34 AM   #21
Art Eatman
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Conformer, you have some good points, and some errors. For instance, yes, I'm predominantly a hunter and a bolt-action guy.

My grump about the SKS/AK stuff is not the guns, themselves. Most anything that shoots can be fun, and can be useful for hunting or self-defense. HEck, I've had an M1A Match Target, an HK 91, several AR-15s--and now have a Bushmaster Match Target. Garands. GI Carbines. Lotsa suchlike stuff. I've played with Mac10s and Mac9s and most every kind of pistol known to mankind. Turned a fair amount of money into fully-automatic noise.

My real gripe is with those who seem to believe deep down in their heart of hearts that ONLY a black gun is NECESSARY for "urban defense" and nothing else would work. Further, there is an attitude of absolute certainty that "when the SHTF" WILL occur.

I've read the NRA's "Armed Citizen" since it first started. I've been reading newspapers since WW II. I watched the TV coverage of the Watts riots and the LA riots. I've lived through the era of "Survivalism" and done a lot of reading; like all of us, I gave thought to Y2K. And that's why I made my shotgun comment--it has been true since before I was born in 1934.

So it's less the "black guns" bit than it is the mindset of some of their advocates.

, Art
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Old December 1, 2001, 01:22 PM   #22
USMCsilver
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Conformer, I'll agree. You get some mud in it, and caughs as to where a AK will keep running.

Who cares.

I am not slopping through the mud with my AR-15's. I just like to shoot and I have one decked out for those SHTF reasons. And even then, mud will most likely not be too involved.

As if those of you cannot tell by my member name, I have had extensive training as an infantry Marine and I know what the AR15/M15 can handle. Been there, done that.

Those of you who don't like 'em, then don't shoot 'em. Those of you who do like them -- good, they are great rifles for practical use. I mean, who out there takes their AR-15 or AK47 out to battle every weekend? Exacly -- NOBODY!
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Old December 1, 2001, 01:23 PM   #23
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It's racism on the part of law makers. They want to oppress the "blacks". Hmm, wooden stock, oh, must be a "hunting gun". But you make it "black" and it's a "mall ninja" EVVVVIIILLL we must ban it, type of gun. It's pure racism on the part of our law makers. We all know it!

All kidding aside, I don't see the point either of all the accessories which weigh the gun down, and actually probably detracts it from it's primary goal, delivery of a bullet to the mo-fo down range.

My very very very stock M1A does it's job, does it well, and while I can make it mall ninja black, I think those who saw my gun would agree, it's beautiful and shouldn't be changed.

But of course, as a libertarian, if you want to put $3000 worth of accessories on you Ninja Gun, then not only shouldn't there be a law against it, if it makes you happy, I HIGHLY encourage you to do it. We are about, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happieness aren't we?

So do whatever you want to your gun that makes you happy.

Truth be told, I'm not a fan of scopes on a tactical rifle, I think scopes are meant for bolt actions. If you go iron sights, you only have about 300 yards range (unless you are some eagle eye) then you might have 500 yards, which I seriously doubt. So anything from AK to SKS, to mini-14, to AR15 will do just fine. Don't fall into the "7.62x39 vs .223" debate, because the range you will cover, it becomes very insignificant. And if you don't feel this is true, ask yourself this, "which would you rather be shot by, 7.62x39 or a .223"? Of course the correct answer is, neither. Both will ruin your day. I think the 308 is still a better round, and would recommend that, but I can tell you this, my SKS with 100 rounds on 10 stripper clips, I can carry without problems, i can carry all 100 rounds in 1 pocket. I don't feel I am under equipted if that is all I've got in hand when the sh*t hits the fan.

So before you dump $1600 on a gun, THINK first. If you still want to, then by all means do it. But $1600 will buy you 10 SKS's. Or 1 SKS and about 24000 rounds of ammo.

Albert
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Old December 1, 2001, 02:49 PM   #24
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Quote:
I have yet to read of an instance in the last half-century or so where anything more than some handgun or most any kind of shotgun didn't prove sufficient for a homeowner to deal with Urban Bad Guys.
Korean shopkeepers during the LA riots? (Ok, they're not homeowners in that context, but still)
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Old December 1, 2001, 06:20 PM   #25
Jake 98c/11b
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Art, Foxy made the point before I could but I know two people who will certainly disagree with you. One little Korean lady and her husband I know who owned a shop in south central LA, they kept theirs during the riots when their neighbors lost theirs because they had "assault" rifles at hand when their neighbors didn't. The second case I have direct knowledge was an Air Force couple down in Homestead Florida during hurricane Andrew. Their AR kept her safe during the rioting when he couldn't make it home for a week. I think either of those would scoff at your idea of a singleshot shotgun being equally suitable. The light carbine can do a lot the shotgun (even a repeater) can't.

As for my PROBABLE needs, I probably will never have need of the fire extingusher I keep in the kitchen but I don't figure I will get rid of that either. I will likely spend more on insurance I will never use than my thousands of dollars of guns I will never use, but I will enjoy the guns far more.
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