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Old November 25, 2001, 12:35 PM   #1
Snowdog
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Jerry Peterson's SCAR-HCS

I've received bunches of literature from this fellow's institute, but never heard of him.
I perhaps may have seen his advertisement in a gun rag once or twice.

HCS- Hostile Control System. I have no idea what it's all about.

My question is, has anyone ever heard of him (he claims to have created the Navy SEAL's fighting system), and if so, is his program/fighting system any good?

Thanks.
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Old November 25, 2001, 11:26 PM   #2
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http://home.att.net/~erik.mann/hcs1.htm

http://home.att.net/~erik.mann/hcs2.htm

http://home.att.net/~erik.mann/scars1.htm

http://home.att.net/~erik.mann/scars2.htm

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Last edited by LawDog; November 26, 2001 at 12:04 AM.
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Old November 26, 2001, 06:43 PM   #3
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It has been pointed out that Jerry Petersen had a couple of SEALs as students (and turned it into the "official SEAL fighting system").

The funny thing is that one of the original students had a squabble with Petersen, broke away and "created" his own system called SAFTA and now advertises it as "The Real Official SEAL H2H Fighting System."

Soon enough, there will be someone breaking away from SAFTA and saying "no, really, MY system is the real SEAL system."

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Old November 26, 2001, 08:09 PM   #4
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Kinda reminds me of "the SEAL Knife of the Week."

J.B.
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Old November 27, 2001, 08:30 AM   #5
Joe Demko
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I have viewed an early set of SCARS training tapes, and it isn't completely useless. It is a system that you can learn quickly. Like Krav Maga, it is something for people who aren't wiling or able to spend years studying a martial art.
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Old November 30, 2001, 12:55 AM   #6
madgrad
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SCARS

From what I've heard in other forums is that SCARS is pretty bad to sickly amuseing from most people that viewed the SCARS tape.

The only time I've ever heard good reviews about SCARS is from some one who buys the tape trains at home from them with his SCARS partner, or pays the SCARS institute alot of money for a Seminar.

As for Krav Maga I've been practicing it for 2 years and heard great comments from the off duty Law Enforcment that try a class, Black belts in other arts, who love the simplicity of Krav Maga, and the conditioning it gives.

The only real negative feed back that I've heard Krav Maga get is from the SCARS forum at Yahoo,a couple people who have no clue what it is, another competitor, and other martial artists/ people who want flash (i.e. Matrix/ Jackie Chan) Katas, point-sparring, or are looking for some ancient mystical secret. That's about it.

I hope this helps.
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Old December 1, 2001, 03:40 PM   #7
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nothing is going to make u a good fighter in a few hours

it takes MONTHS to develope an adequate sense of balance, focus, "reach" to properly shape your weapons, learn to kick, block, etc. Grappling is a VERY dangerous thing to indulge in when there may be more than one attacker, when he may have a table leg already in hand, or may draw a knife as you flop around. Grappling is for when you are blinded, or when you are trying to be NICE to someone. I greatly prefer to throw some change in his face and break his LEG, thanks very much. TRY sitting on my chest, and SEE what my teeth do to your inner thigh. LET me have the option of yanking on or striking your testicles and SEE how long you are then able to hang on to me. Ditto if I can get a finger or thumb into your eye socket.
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Old December 2, 2001, 10:07 AM   #8
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Too many of you approach this from the mindset of people who have spent a significant amount of time training in a fighting style. The main thing SCARS is good for is that it teaches people to fight back in some fashion. Remember what happened on 9/11/01? Two whole planeloads of people died without a struggle because ome dirtsacks had boxcutters. The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of people don't have the desire to commit to studying and practicing for months/years. The first thing I learned about fighting was that getting punched in the face won't kill you. It may hurt, but you don't collapse and give in. Most people don't even know that much. The majority of people in the US have never been in a fight outside of a middle school scuffle!
Whatever it may have mutated into since, Krav Maga springs from the same roots as SCARS. Both of them owe something to the hand-to-hand training developed by Fairbairn and Applegate, in concept if not in actual moves. No, you can't take somebody who is completely untrained and turn him into a blackbelt in a few hours or a few classes, but you can turn him into somebody who will fight back. If you don't see the value of that, then you are too lost in your own dojo hype to bother continuing this discussion.
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Old December 2, 2001, 01:03 PM   #9
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I have been studying SCARS for a few years now. I have found I like it. I have even attended a camp. So I understand it beyond the videos. I'll admit, I have never felt like a bad ass after training in SCARS , but I do have a better understanding on how to protect myself. Most people don't look beyond watching the videos once, and then they say they suck. You cant do that. When I first watched the SCARS videos a few years ago, I felt it looked no different then anything else out there. Esp. after reading the ads I thought I was going to see something magical. But I didn't. But I did stick with the system, I researced it, and I started to understand its principles. And I found I liked SCARS the best. Just like others have found they liked other styles more then others.
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Old December 2, 2001, 10:02 PM   #10
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I guess when people spend hundreds of dollars on video tapes and a couple of thousand dollars for seminars from someone who spouts "official SEAL system" nonsense and denigrates other systems, they tend to get emotionally attached.

It seems to me that SCARS does provide some basic techniques, which can be useful for rank beginners. However, the issue at hand is its supposed superiority over others. It clearly is not. In terms of "value" (or "bang for the buck"), it fares badly compared to many other "combative" type systems out there (and from much more legitimate people with actual police and military experience). It's downright highway robbery to charge several thousand dollars per person for "super secret" seminars when other instructors teach arguably much better material at fractions of the cost.

I also see that we have now passed the "grappling" craze and have moved to "combatives" craze. Combatives are great so long as they form a component of overall training (classical Kodokan Judo, for example, contained Kata training, sportive/sparring training AND combatives). I find it distasteful that many combative instructors claim "learn how to fight in 2 days of seminar!" As someone pointed out previously, learning to fight (in any fashion, be it with hands, knives or guns) takes a knowledge of sound and effective techniques, muscle memories of those techniques from constant practice, an ability to apply the techniques against fully resisting opponents AND physical attributes. It is criminal to market to people that they can do this in two days or even two weeks (or even watching videos).

On the other hand, if "fighting mindset" is what some of these guys profess to teach, they really ought to charge less and get rid of mumbo jumbo lingo, because the "fighting mindset" takes an altogether different set of training and experience to develop.

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Old December 2, 2001, 10:38 PM   #11
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The problem that I have with SCARS is the over-hyped advertisements for it.

Combat Handguns magazine, May 1999, page 59:

"Get my free report on lethal fighting -- and I guarantee for the rest of your life you won't lose using my system. And I put it in writing!"

"With SCARS you're undefeatable!"

"This is your once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to become undefeatable (with or without a weapon) with the SCARS Professional Fighting System."

"Look, you'll receive more knowledge in one hour from Jerry Peterson's videos on fighting than two decades of so-called 'Secret' Martial Arts."


That noise you hear in the background is the LawDog BS-O-Meter(tm) burying the needle.

"...in just a few short hours of watching you will easily handle any bad guy that comes your way!!!"

"I can't tell you the 'god-like' power you get from the truth of this system!"


Never taken SCARS, or watched the videos.

Never going to, either. :barf:

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Old December 5, 2001, 03:43 AM   #12
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Krav Maga Roots

FYI Golgol 13:

KRAV MAGA DOES NOT COME FROM THE SAME ROOTS AS SCARS!!!

SCARS was developed by Jerry Peterson sometime in the 80's.

Krav Maga was developed by Imi Liechenfield in the 50's in Isreal.

KM has nothing to do with, or anything even similar with SCARS at all.

Please read about the history of KM at www.kravmaga.com.

As for Fairburn/Sykes the only technique I've seen similar to KM, is a Choke release from a holly wood choke while the attacker is on the ground leaned over and choking his victim. Also Fairburn/Sykes system empthasizes alot more on trapping than KM does.

Sorry about being a little curt, but I don't want people to be confused about KM.
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Old December 5, 2001, 09:22 AM   #13
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Madgrad,
Did you read what I wrote or what you wanted to see? The two are from the same roots i.e. the desire to teach untrained people to be able to defend themselves after a minimum of instruction. Like it or not as you will, that is the truth.
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Old December 5, 2001, 12:07 PM   #14
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Actually, whatever the merits of the respective systems, it appears that Krav Maga was developed to teach Israeli soldiers the rudiments of unarmed fighting while SCARS was developed to enrich Jerry Petersen.

Perhaps someone could correct me, but I never heard that the founder of KM developed his system to market it commercially.

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Old December 6, 2001, 09:57 AM   #15
Joe Demko
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I'm not really going to defend SCARS, here, since I haven't studied it and am basing what I've said on viewing an early set of tapes once and reading about Jerry Petersen in several magazine articles. If I had to depend on a martial art, I would rely on what I learned in several years of studying Tang Soo Do.
That said, how does Petersen making money off this automatically disqualify it as legitimate? I've seen many of you guys sing the praises of 1 day seminars in use of the knife, etc. in other threads. Furthermore, I would venture to say that the vast majority of you learned your various styles at school you paid to attend. Quite likely you paid additional fees when you tested for promotion, too. Does that make your school and style less legitimate?
This thread has a high probability of degenerating into a "my style is best" thread, so let's try to keep to the original topic as much as possible.
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Old December 7, 2001, 06:13 PM   #16
Skorzeny
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Golgo-13:
Quote:
That said, how does Petersen making money off this automatically disqualify it as legitimate?
Tell me where in my previous post I state that the entrepreneurial movitations of Jerry Petersen disqualifies his so-called invincible system?

Matter of fact, I wrote "whatever the merits of the respective systems..." - meaning regardless of the actual efficacy of each system, the motivations for creating the respective systems were such (in my opinion, of course).
Quote:
Quite likely you paid additional fees when you tested for promotion, too. Does that make your school and style less legitimate?
I have trained in a number of "martial arts" systems and many never charged me for promotions. In fact, there was no concept of a promotion per se in several systems (like Muay Thai and Shoot wrestling). I was simply expected to become more skillful as I trained longer. My "bragging rights" came from my increased skills and my ability to become more difficult for my sparring partners, not from the stripes or colors of my belt.

When I trained in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, my instructor simply told me one day that I was good enough for such and such a belt and gave me one (after a tiny bit of pomp). He didn't hold a "test" or charged me a "promotion fee." Later I found out that some of the higher belt holders in our club previously told our instructor that I was getting too difficult to submit and getting a hang of submitting some of the higher belts, and that they felt that I should move up. That's probably atypical of BJJ instruction, but that has been my particular experience.

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Old December 7, 2001, 10:27 PM   #17
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Skorzeny, your training in a "number" of martial arts systems and your "difficulty of submitting and getting a hang of submitting a number of higher belts" tells me all I need to know about you.
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Old December 9, 2001, 12:37 AM   #18
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Newsflash, any and all seminars are a waste of time and money.

Whether it's about buying real estate in Florida, releasing the "inner you", or hand to hand combat, they're all bogus.

Tapes are all pretty suspect as well. At least a tape is cheaper and you have a visual aid that you can rewind over and over.
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Old December 9, 2001, 08:24 PM   #19
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hi guys,

this seems to be degenerating into i hate scars and if you don't practice MA in a specific style for years, it doesn't work.

Used to be in the army, rangers. while in the rangers in benning, i was driving through columbus and lo and behold, a bujinkan dojo had just opened. so out of curiosity i went in and really liked what i saw. studied there for my term in the army.

i have a little bit of money so i can now afford to purchase stuff that peaks my interest. i have the first set of scars tapes. i have the first several tapes of varnis JJ. i have been purchasing sets of tapes for about 10 years now. wanted to see what everyone else was doing. didn't want to be caught by surprise by some crazy move or something. here's my analysis, if you will:

i don't care what style you are doing, there are only so many ways for a human person to punch or kick. a joint lock is a joint lock. this is not to say that i don't see subtleties in the techniques from different styles. i got a high end vcr so i could slow the motion down frame by frame and analyse what the technique was. i see more similarities than differences. what i do see is that certain styles emphasize some things over others.

back to the issue at hand regarding scars. as far as i can tell, he teaches basic techniques that you are more likely to remember to use when TSHTF. there is no 1000 year tradition behind scars but what it has it works. the ads are misleading, you are not going to become superman with this stuff. other than that, the simplicity is good for people who don't want to devote their life to a MA but just want the basics. Of course that is not what the ads imply, which is what i think ****** most of MA's off.

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Old December 9, 2001, 09:03 PM   #20
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Golgo-13:
Quote:
Skorzeny, your training in a "number" of martial arts systems and your "difficulty of submitting and getting a hang of submitting a number of higher belts" tells me all I need to know about you.
Which is what?

I gave you some point-by-point refutation of your opinion. You, in return, give me a dismissive, cryptic and vague statement. Are you trying to be mysterious?

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Old December 10, 2001, 06:24 AM   #21
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No, Mr. Skorzeny, you didn't give a point by point refutation of anything. Mainly, you told me about how great you are. I don't recall the topic of the thread having anything to do with your personal level of experience or expertise. The only statement about yourself that would have been germane to the discussion would have been "I have never had to pay additional fees for testing." Perhaps on another day and thread, one where you have realized that everything isn't about the wonder and glory of you, we can attempt a discussion again. Good day to you.
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Old December 10, 2001, 12:15 PM   #22
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Sigh - Skorzeny & I have had our disagreements, but I agree with him on this one. Please keep the personal attacks personal, not public.

Belts, rank, testing - they're all artificial concepts created for competition. They were all taken from Judo, to divide students by skill level. They really mean nothing, it's what the individual brings that matters.

SCARS, as well as any other seminar or video based course, I believe to be of dubious value at best. You can't learn about fighting from your La-Z-Boy! I've seen a bunch of boxing on TV - DeLaHoya's about my weight - should I challenge him? If you believe that you can become "invincible" as so many of these claim, you need to have your head examined. We're all made of breakable stuff; nobody is invincible.

Like Lawdog said, the hype was enough for me to discount it as so much snake oil. If they made believable claims I'd consider it possible merits. Until then, I'll spend my time elsewhere.
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Old December 10, 2001, 07:07 PM   #23
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Golgo-13:

For the record, I was explaining how "promotion" worked in my particular BJJ club. I did the same for another practitioner. He started to become really difficult to spar with and I recommended that he move up to my belt color.

I also desribed "systems" (i.e. Muay Thai and Shoot wrestling/Shooto) where there is no belt or testing per se.
Quote:
Perhaps on another day and thread, one where you have realized that everything isn't about the wonder and glory of you, we can attempt a discussion again.
Where did this come from? I think you are reading more out of my statements that warranted. Nonetheless, perhaps you could've explained the logic by which you arrived at this conclusion rather than "all I need to know" type crytic, mysterious statement.

Danger Dave:

Excellent points, particularly the Kodokan Judo origin of belts.

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Old December 12, 2001, 10:39 AM   #24
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Skorzeny,
An over-reaction on my part. I had the feeling this thread was about to turn into the "MY kung-fu is most powerful!" thread...one of the micturating contests I most detest (along with threads about the invincible samurai, the unbeatable WWII Germans, and Glock vs 1911). I retract anything that you may have perceived as a personal insult.
Anyway, my experience with SCARS is limited (as I said) to a single viewing of an early set of tapes and several magazine articles written by people who had attended SCARS "camps." Is SCARS unbeatable? No, but no "style" is unbeatable, only a particular practitioner may be unbeatable. Is SCARS a scam? No more or less than anything that might be taught as 1 to 3 day seminars. Is it worthless? No, but that isn't saying it's the greatest thing since gunpowder, either. Do I use it? No.
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Old December 24, 2001, 09:21 PM   #25
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regarding SCARS system:

I own CFC hand-to-hand set of tapes(first set) and completed a Level One (three day) seminar.
My experience in any other martial arts or fighting systems is non-existent (excepting a brief flirtation with Traditional Wing Chun (as sanctioned by William Cheung)).
My experience has left me with mixed feelings.
1)One could learn (and I feel I have learned) some valuable basics from Peterson's system.
2)Anyone looking to become a fearless, invincible, square-jawed, super-hero/ babe-magnet must wait on genetic manipulation.
3)I am of the opinion that SCARS seminars are better left to those who can afford it (not me). The tapes are only worthwhile if you find someone else to REALLY commit to studying and practicing - this is not easy.
4)The advertising plays on feelings we all have from time to time in a society that is often less-than-civilized;it doesn't present the system in a realistic light.

Yet, it must be adressed that unlike similarly advertised programs, SCARS keeps frequently popping up on different forums. The controversy, it seems, IS undefeatable; so, I offer these recommendations:

1)is SCARS the current or former official SEAL fighting system?
ASK THE NAVAL SPEC-WAR COMMANDER BY PHONE OR LETTER
2)is the SCARS system undefeatable?
GET JERRY PETERSON'S WALLET AND YOU ARE QUALIFIED TO ANSWER THIS QUESTION. EVERYTHING else is speculation.

In summary: I believe SCARS can benefit someone's repetiore of fighting basics as long as they get past the hollywood/superhero fantasies and commit to arduous and intelligent study. That said, I am NOT qualified to say that other matial arts can not do the same. Your money, roll the dice.
Further: as I am not a fan of Jerry's advertising methods and my wallet is still healing, I have begun to consider other fighting systems. I recommend anyone with more burning questions on SCARS or others do their own investigating and take ALL opinions with a wee grain of salt.

Lastly, I wish you all a safe and happy holiday season.

gp
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