The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old November 23, 2001, 11:06 AM   #1
LASur5r+P
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2001
Location: soCal,Republic of
Posts: 111
Unexpected guests

Next door, the folks had an open party and they got some unexpected guests who walked in with guns drawn. They essentially robbed all the guests at gun point. (Three home robbers)
You're in the house with your cellphone and handgun. You are in hte kitchen/living room/family room with a plate of food in your lap and your house sits in a gated community with high walls and a security code that you have to punch to get in.
Obviously, the three BG's have breached the first two forms of security. They are now walking into your house with guns drawn.

What do you do?
__________________
proud to be an American.
LASur5r+P is offline  
Old November 23, 2001, 12:09 PM   #2
boris_01
Member
 
Join Date: November 14, 2001
Location: N.C.
Posts: 61
Obviously, vote out these liberal, panty waist, soft on criminals, elected officals we have and vote in ones who will enforce stricter punishments on those who commit crimes.

Proud to be an CONSERVATIVE AMERICAN REPUBLICAN.
boris_01 is offline  
Old November 23, 2001, 02:29 PM   #3
Mahakorin
Member
 
Join Date: October 10, 2001
Location: Fort Campbell, KY
Posts: 37
LASur5r+P, did the neighbors really get robbed like that? The way I remember it you lived in a very quiet neighborhood. Were the neighbors cased for a while? What happened there?

As for the situation ...

Speed dial 911. Pop OC Grenade and lob it into the hallway. If they got past the first two they're probably in cahoots with the rentacops who should be running the perimiter. Lock, load, and shoot. Pray later.
Mahakorin is offline  
Old November 24, 2001, 05:59 AM   #4
nbk2000
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 13, 2000
Posts: 216
Jesus, I hate the "bust out your arsenal and let lead fly" replies.

Firstly, who the hell brings OC grenades to a neighbors house party?

(The following parable isn't aimed at anyone in particular, rather at everyone who thinks that a gun is the solution to every problem that ever faced mankind....from homeless people to the ozone hole.)

Let's logically assess the situation:

You = 1

Them = 3

Guests and homeowner = ? (5 at least?)

You're outnumber 3 to 1, you're not going to be able to kill all three instantly before they can flinch and pull the trigger at least once, probably killing whoever they're pointing the gun at since BGs don't point guns at floors and ceilings when there are victims to point them at instead.

So you DO manage to kill one, one of the others flinches and kills one guest.

Score: You 1, Them 1

You then duck and cover while exchanging gunfire with BGs. They're firing wildly in your direction since they're not sure about your exact position behind the couch and could give a f*** less about "know your backstop" and all that other BS that flies out the window when SHTF.

In the meantime, you're buddy Bob, who was sitting next to you talking about the great ass on the neighbors wife before you decide to become John Woo, he gets perforated several times.

Score: You 1, Them 2

Your perfectly aimed shot, aided by years of practice in front of the mirror, misses BG #2 and 3, but makes a perfect 10 center of mass hit on your neighbors wife (Hmmm..she DID (past tense) have a nice ass). OPPS! Sorry about that Mrs. Langley.

Score: You 2 (1 if you don't count the neighbors wife), Them 2

Guess the Steven Seagull videos you've watched didn't portray the probability (NOT possibility) of missing your target during extreme stress situations like...oh say....3 on 1 shootouts.

"HE never missed!" you're thinking.

Wellllll.....it's easy to hit your targets when they're stunt men standing still for you, not robbers intent on killing the SOB who f***ed up their Master Plan, all while scurrying like crazy dodging REAL bullets that are ripping through the sofa with disturbing frequency and nearness.

In the meantime, while you're reloading, BGs boogie out the door taking the homeowners daughter with them as a hostage because they KNOW the other (less neighborly neighbors) have been speed dialing 911 since the bloodbath started. And gated communities have good police response times, unlike the ghettos.

Fast forward through the high speed chase, stand off, shoot out.

One bystander ran over, one BG suicides, other kills kid and goes out shooting, gets killed, one cop killed in the process of capturing last surviving wounded (friendly fire) BG.

Total body count (sounds like Vietnam ):

3 dead BGs

6 dead (5 bystanders, one cop)

But hey, you got to prove your manhood and use your gun.

And while you're in prison, bent over a 5 gallon bucket washing your "husbands" shorts as he fondles YOUR nice ass in anticipation of lights out and the long night of man loving he has in store for you, you can think back to the murder trial you lost because you were a "gun toting whacko who instigated a gunfight that resulted in 9 peoples deaths, one of whom was a child", when all you had to do was hand over your genuine imitation leather wallet with your maxed out credit cards, $30 cash, and expired drivers license.

Moral of the story?

Don't play hero when you've got nothing to gain, and a HOLE (lot) to lose.

LASur5r+P, I didn't see any mention of anyone getting raped or murdered. I take it that the robbers didn't go on a wild blood lust orgy of rape and murder?

Everyone, seriously, ask yourselves "Would introducing gunplay have de-esculated the violence of the situation, or instigated a shootout with probable death and injuries to follow?".

If they start lining people up facing the wall while they stand behind them cocking their guns, then you've got nothing to lose and might even be saving lives.

But, excepting the "mass execution" scenario (very rare anyways), your best bet would be to speed dial 911 and drop the phone under the sofa so the cops can hear what's going on. You may also want to ditch the gun because if BGs are searching people and find it on you, they might shoot you on the GP that you might be a cop or wanna-be hero.

I'm not against guns (despite the above rant), very much the opposite.

But I AM against people who think with their guns instead of their brains. Those kind of people scare me a hell of a lot more than any number of junkies and weirdos I've had the displeasure to deal with. A quick trigger finger is not a substitute for thinking.

Anyways, I'm sure this is going to stir up some peoples rancor. Bring it on if you want, because, as I read in someones signature line somewhere once:

Arguing on the internet is like being in the Special Olympics....even if you win, you're still retarded.

nbk2000 is offline  
Old November 24, 2001, 08:41 AM   #5
STEVE M
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 7, 1999
Location: TN. USA
Posts: 607
NBK, I agree. You are welcome to parties at my house anytime!
__________________
MOLON LABE!
I've joined the 300.
STEVE M is offline  
Old November 24, 2001, 08:51 AM   #6
LASur5r+P
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2001
Location: soCal,Republic of
Posts: 111
Worth a chance?

NBK 2000,
Thanks for the thought provoking ideas....nice breakdown of possible results of starting up the action.

You know, many of the people on this board, practice and train all their lives and pray that they don't have to use their guns in a real life and death situation. Most have never been in a gunfight.

Sounds like you've been there or are aware of that kind of reaction to your action and also are cognizant of some of the "bad" results of shootings.

That's reality and all of us should take heed and be responsible for our actions because when TSHTF you being the CCW holder are ultimately responsible for what happens next...whether you resist or not.

I,too, have seen the elephant...more times than I would like and by the grace of God and the fact that He protects idiots like me and little children, I have survived each encounter. You learn that all plans goes out the window after the first shot is fired.

...but NBK, after we take a brief moment to assess the situation as we see it, a few of us will still shoot the dice and go...let's roll!
__________________
proud to be an American.
LASur5r+P is offline  
Old November 24, 2001, 08:57 AM   #7
LASur5r+P
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2001
Location: soCal,Republic of
Posts: 111
Bad neighborhood?

Mahakorin,
I do live in a good neighborhood...I was actually at my sister-in-laws house...they live in a gated community with four foot high fences. Their little community of 15 houses is totally surrounded by some "bad" folks.( I just used my house to make the story go easier)
I quit arguing with my in-laws a long while ago.

NBK 2000, the saying in my office is "Arguing with an Inspector is like wrestling with a pig in the mud. Sooner or later you find out that the more you argue, the more he likes it."

Hope you all had a Happy Thanksgiving.
__________________
proud to be an American.
LASur5r+P is offline  
Old November 24, 2001, 11:30 AM   #8
Samurai
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 20, 2001
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 901
Well put. No amount of money is worth dieing over. Provided the robbers just take the wallets, the flatware, and a few pieces of jewelry and leave, let them go. If you just have to flex the trigger finger, take a shot after they get out the door, when they're in the yard, trying to hide their weapons and make a getaway. If you can get in a nice gut shot on one person, the other two will run, and you can get the names from the one down.

Now, if they attempt to kidnap, rape, or assault any member of the party, all bets are off. Shoot with full knowledge of the fact that you probably won't survive the encounter, but at least you'll take them with you. Some things are worth dieing over. Who knows? They might choke.
Samurai is offline  
Old November 24, 2001, 01:06 PM   #9
coz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 3, 2001
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 261
I have weapons stashed in four rooms.

With three guys, unless I can get "the drop", i'd probably wait unti lthey were leaving.

If I see them coming in, and can get to the 9 mm or the .45 as they come in, I'm shooting.

Biggest problem is the pass thru bullets, lots of worrys there.


Cheers
__________________
Coz
"Yes officer it's loaded, wouldn't be very useful as a throwing weapon now would it?"
coz is offline  
Old November 24, 2001, 01:55 PM   #10
Hellequin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 13, 2001
Location: Caracas
Posts: 137
Mr. Samurai:

I don´t know about where you live or the laws of your state.

When the BG´s turn around and run, the threat is over. Your live is longer in danger, so you have no reason to use your gun!!!!

Where I live, if you shoot a BG in the back after he turns around and runs out of your party, and he dies, you will be on trial for homicide. (As if you just shot an honest pregnant woman [same penalty])


Keep that in mind.
__________________
- Stay safe -
Hellequin is offline  
Old November 24, 2001, 03:29 PM   #11
Mahakorin
Member
 
Join Date: October 10, 2001
Location: Fort Campbell, KY
Posts: 37
Holy shoot lol

"Firstly, who the hell brings OC grenades to a neighbors house party?"

Good point there nbk ... I tend to think way more on the lines of "let it rip" ... too much room-clearing exercises in my free time lol ... I tend to assume I'll always have at least one M67 on me, or something equivalent nowadays ... mea culpa, mea culpa ...



I'm tryin to remember that old Spanish proverb ... "Arguing with idiots is like wrestling with pigs; you may win, but you will get dirty" ... I think?
Mahakorin is offline  
Old November 24, 2001, 03:31 PM   #12
tobeat1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 15, 1999
Location: Memphis, TN USA
Posts: 144
NBK2000 said "But, excepting the "mass execution" scenario (very rare anyways)"- It is the "very rare anyways" part that gets me. That means it only happens every once in a while right? I guess that means that you are betting that it is not gonna happen to you. I mean if that is your mindset why carry a gun at all? Oh, he MIGHT not kill me after taking all my stuff. You have to decide if you things are worth dying over. My wallet, no. My credit cards, no. The keys to MY house with MY wife and MY daughter in it and the drivers license with my address on it, YES. True enough there is a proper response to any given situation sometimes,but most of the time there is no proper repsonse, only what is the least bad of the choices presented to you.
__________________
"peace, love, joy, and happiness..."

tobeat1 is offline  
Old November 24, 2001, 04:22 PM   #13
STEVE M
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 7, 1999
Location: TN. USA
Posts: 607
coz, are you going to leave the guns out in the 4 rooms during a party? What if one of your guests who didn't understand firearms and who came to the party drunk or stoned found them? I realy think that if you have more than a couple of guests over then all guns should be secured, either locked up or on your person.
tobeat1, I don't think I would start shooting on the off chance that it will be a mass murder. If I went by that logic I could shoot all 20-30 year old white males who look normal, talk nice, and are a little bit shy because they may be a mass murderer ala Ted Bundy. Until they actualy start to do something to make it seem to be more than a robbery then you have no justification in shooting them. Once they do cross over that line THEN all bets are off and you will have to shoot them.
__________________
MOLON LABE!
I've joined the 300.
STEVE M is offline  
Old November 24, 2001, 09:45 PM   #14
nbk2000
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 13, 2000
Posts: 216
Tobeat1:

If your home address is on your drivers license than you've already lost, even before the party.

You must NEVER have anything with your name connected to your home address. NEVER!

All my paperwork goes through a PO Box that, if they backtrace to where I put down where I "live" will turn out to be a mailbox on a post in front of a vacant field in the middle of nowhere.

So let them have my ID and house keys, they'll never find where I live.

And the "mass execution" is EXCEDDINGLY rare. How many non-gang war, non-bank surrounded by the cops, situations have you heard of everyone being executed. I can only think of 2 in the last few years, and those were both robberies where someone tried to play hero. I'm sure there's more, but that fact is that for the 40,000 or so people murdered every year with guns, how many of those are "mass executions"? Less than a dozen or two.

You were many times more likely to be killed driving to the party, or murdered by your wife after you got home because she thought you were staring at the neighbors wifes ass, than you are to be executed by a criminal.

Believe it or not, most criminals aren't out to rape and kill everyone they see. They're criminals because they're too lazy to work. Killing everyone is more work and draws more heat then they want. They just want your ****, and once they have it, they'll leave.

LASur5r+P:

I've seen circumstances leading up to, and the aftermath of, gunfights, but never the "during" (thank God). I've always made it a point of removing myself from the area when I see the "up to" phase starting. Once I missed the "during" only by a few seconds. But then again I don't carry a gun 99.99% of the time so I'm not tempted to John Woo.

To me, a gun is a "mission specific" tool. If I don't already have a plan for using it before I head out the door, I'm not taking it with. Too much temptation with all the idiots out there that nature didn't cull first.

Also, what you described doesn't fit my "minds eye" picture of a gated community.

The gated communities I've seen being built in my area had 10' high walls, private security patrols, many hundreds of $250,000+ homes, all waaayyyyy out in the middle of nowhere, many dozens of miles away from the nearest ghetto, all surrounded by similar such communities.

What you described sounds like an apartment complex, only with houses. And in the middle of "ghetto-land" to start with. 4' walls aren't walls, those are tall skinny benches.

Not to sound mean, since I'm just going on the limited info you posted, but perhaps your neighbors were wearing "rose colored glasses", thinking that somehow they were invulnerable to the scummy predations that they live in the middle of, simply by dint that they live in a "gated" community and only see people like them around them most of the time?

BTW, I was a happy, bloated tick on thanksgiving.

Steve M:

Thanks for the invite. I think you're also saying that you don't believe the gun is the cure for cancer too? More people need to think first, definitly.

Mahakorin:

To each his own. Carry whatever makes you feel safe. That's all anyone can do in life.

The very few times that I've had a party, I knew my guests were carrying, and they knew the same of me. Anyone coming uninvited would have met with a very "warm" reception.

And if I was at someone elses party, I'd mind my own damn business, regardless of what happening to the others, that's their look out. I know that's selfish, but "I" will only get to live once, and I want that to be as long as possible, as healthy as possible. That does NOT include catching bullets for the neighbors wife or brat.

Since I have no family to worry about that's easy for me to say. If it was my family, it might be different, I don't know.

Besides, for all I know, the neighbors brought it on themselves. Maybe hubby was holding drugs for the "BG"s and decided to skim a little of the top. You may THINK you know your neighbors, but that's what a lot of people who found out their neighbor was a cannibal serial killer, drug kingpin, or career bank robber thought too.

In reality, you (and I) don't know jack **** about anyone besides ourselves. Not even about your spouse or children.

My personal defense philoshopy (SP?) is prevention. Too much to go into detail here, but if you don't set yourself up in situations where you need a gun, then you don't need a gun.

The simplist things greatly reduce your risk, like staying out of scummy areas, doing your business during the daylight hours, traveling with others, etc. Common sense lifestyle changes that cost nothing.

Nothing major that'd get a write up in a "I Was There" magazine article, but hey, who want's to write about the great tactics they used in the gunfight they "won", if you have to write it from your wheelchair.

In my opinion, having to use a gun is like having to use a fire extinguisher, because if you have to use it, you've already f***ed up by not preventing the situation that requires it.

Prevention beats cure anytime.

End Rant.
nbk2000 is offline  
Old November 25, 2001, 12:42 AM   #15
LoneStranger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 5, 2000
Location: Lawrence, KS
Posts: 576
nbk2000; I have always stated that Rule#1 of a Survivalist is, "Always try to be where the action isn't!"
Sounds like you have similiar thoughts.
LoneStranger is offline  
Old November 25, 2001, 04:46 AM   #16
LASur5r+P
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2001
Location: soCal,Republic of
Posts: 111
Mahakorin?

Mahakorin?
When time permits please e-mail the +P addy? Have a new DSL hookup at home.

Steve M.,
Phew, glad you explained yourself...thought you'd be shooting my guests at the party.

NBK 2000 and L.S.,
Be careful in L.A. and surrounding cities, then, because you can get all the tales that you want by attending parties here. Look at the Halloween party last year?
If you don't live in a crummy area and you attend an adult Halloween party, the police can bring the shootings to you.. Of course, the dolt shouldn't have been playing with a replica or pointing it at anyone, but he paid the price for it.
In some of the "neighborhoods" the house where the party was at? It is a $250,000 house. Yes, they are fools to believe that they live in a secure area, but that's the best they can afford in L.A./soCal..
It is my wife's family and I pack everytime I have to go over there. My nephew who lives there, is a Sheriff.
Don't worry fellows, I have tried to stay out of trouble all my life, but I must be born under a dark star because i am one of least aggressive looking guys you have ever met, but boy does trouble find me.
I would much rather have your record than mine, but you play the cards that you're dealt with, right?
Anyway, a few more years in soCal then I'm out of here...daughter will be out of high school and I can retire....yahoo!

Wish me luck, boys.
__________________
proud to be an American.
LASur5r+P is offline  
Old November 25, 2001, 05:21 PM   #17
Mahakorin
Member
 
Join Date: October 10, 2001
Location: Fort Campbell, KY
Posts: 37
Paranoid?

Living in the barracks, I think I've gotten paranoid . . . my roommate has a history of going nuts and has gone through two other roommates (one of whom he threw out the window) and there are so many incidents on average (boys will be boys?) that I've gotten used to carrying several weapons on me at all times.

I have a secondary wallet with $$$ that has no credit cards or ID in case of robbery. They can't do much about my house keys, but even if I drew them they're on the end of a kubotan. I'm thinking of getting one of those OC kubotans that ASP produces. Helps me not to lose my keys, at any rate.

If I could pack (and no one can pack on Fort Campbell save the MPs, since we've had all sorts of killings in the past) I'd have an OC grenade too. If I could get away with a flashbang I'd have that. I've so gotten used to the reflex of "pop, heave, shoot" that if I was faced with contact I'd just pull a reaction drill along those lines. Probably not the right thing to do if I want to keep myself from the affections of "Bubba" in the real world, so I'll work on self-therapy.

Anyways, that's just me ... I don't go clubbing or barhopping anymore. Too many people getting into fights. Used to be that getting into a barfight was a good thing. Now if you're within 50 yards of one you get an Article 15 just for being there.

I don't go out late at night unless it's with friends - and to be honest, Caucasian ones. I've had my share of experiences here. We go out in a big truck, so we don't draw too much attention and we have more protection and power on hand. We drink at restaurants so we don't have large numbers of yobs who can target us. We never get drunk, so everyone can drive if called on.

We just don't put ourselves in situations where we can get screwed, I guess. It's just too much a reflex to think about constantly. The reasons for doing so are depressing anyways.

Besides, every one of us carries at least two weapons. If SHTF we can always call on the MPs (and we know quite a few.) If we really needed to take care of it ourselves, we can goto a buddie's house and get access to a good stash of weapons (not everyone likes to store stuff in the Company Armsroom.)

I think to be honest I think I am probably unable to translate my experiences into some sort of commonality with everyone else. I don't think the danger level here is excessive, at least not in comparison to what I'm used to. Never mind all this unchanneled pent-up aggression that I have.

I think I'll go back home and have a beer and roll a boulder over my cave again.
Mahakorin is offline  
Old November 26, 2001, 02:59 PM   #18
coz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 3, 2001
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 261
Stevem,

Guns are stashed in a way that someone would have to go looking for them to really put their hands on them. If I have guests that are snooping in that manner, I'll ask them not to do that, and then if they persist they'll be asked to leave.

Usually "stood" up against the wall of a cabinet, with something next to them that is not going to be used... and in the case of two of them, to actually see the weapon prior to placing your hand on it, you would have to step up on something. However, my son, my wife, my daughter and I can all access them via "feel".

However, if someone brings a rugrat over, I do take care of the shotgun under the bed....

And, I don't usually carry with guests over, as hugging would inevitably result in: "What is that thing you have on your lower back?" WHAT A GUN? ARE YOU NUTS?!?!?!

ad nauseum.
__________________
Coz
"Yes officer it's loaded, wouldn't be very useful as a throwing weapon now would it?"
coz is offline  
Old November 27, 2001, 12:41 PM   #19
hasher
Member
 
Join Date: February 3, 2001
Posts: 34
NKB,

Execution scenario's never happen in home invasions.

Wichita, Kansas. Just before Christmas 2000, 2 BG's (one just released from prison 2 weeks before), both in thier early twenties targeted a family in a very, very nice section of town. They came to the door in the middle of a heavy snow storm. There were 3 males and 2 females in the house. One of them answers the door. BG at door produces a gun and forces his way in. The BG's robbed them, took them to the ATM to get more money then spent several hours tourtering them as well a raping them. The men (one of whom was studying for the clergy) were forced to sodomize each other. Several of the victim's had parts of them removed while they were still alive. The BG's then loaded them up in a vechicle and took them to a deserted field outside of town. There they were srtipped naked and marched into the field. They were forced to kneel and then all 5 of them were shot excecution style.

One of the female victims took only a grazing would to the head she lay there for 20 minutes among the bodies to ensure that they were gone. She then ran, naked and shot in the head over a mile to a house. While waiting for the cops to get there she told the family alll the details. While waiting for the ambulance to get there she gave the cops alll the details in case she died. (This would have amounted to a "dying declaration"). While in the ambulance she did it again on the ride to the hospital.

So it never happens? Well that was in Wichita, Kansas, a town of about 400,000 people. CCW is prohibited in Kansas, but after that day I was never without a gun except for where alchaol was involved. I now live in a sate where I have a permit and I am never without one except at the office where it is 10 feet away outside the door ( I work in a secured building that is hard to get into). So it can happen.

How do I know all this? I was a manager for an alarm company in Wichita at the time this happened. I had a lot of friends on the PD and SD. that is how I got soem of the details that never made the papers.

If you want to check this out look it up. The local paper is the Wichita Eagle.

Now should we discus sthe home invasion murdr that happened this year in Rifle, Colorado? That is a town of about 6,000.

BTW , I agree with the others. If all they wan tis th4e wallets and they aleady have the drop on me. Fine. If things go south, I can always engage at that time.

Hasher
hasher is offline  
Old November 28, 2001, 04:07 AM   #20
nbk2000
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 13, 2000
Posts: 216
Hasher (and anyone else), if you're going to reply to statements I make, I ask just two things:

1. Get my name right. It's NBK2000 (Ned B. K*****, went online 2000), not NKB.

AND

2. Quote me correctly. NOWHERE did I say (or imply) that mass executions NEVER happen. What I did say is that they are very rare, which is true.

Of all the home-invasion robberies that happen every year, how many result in mass executions?
Enough to count on one hand?

Total fatalities?
A couple dozen.

Again, you're much more likely to die from an allergic reaction to your medication or from a driving accident than a mass-execution.

And personally, I can think of worse ways to die than instant death via bullet to brain.

Although I do think the whole sodomized :barf: and "bits cut off" thing was a little extreme. I mean there's a difference between disposing of witnesses and sick, twisted, pervert games.
nbk2000 is offline  
Old November 28, 2001, 10:49 AM   #21
Tim Burke
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 17, 1999
Posts: 551
Speaking of very rare, nbk2000, your initial scenario is pretty rare. Do you have any reports of any scenarios that are remotely similar to what you've outlined?

American Rifleman has an article called "Armed Citizen" which appears every month. It's full of reports of relatively untrained people using guns to successfully defend themselves. Does HCI have an analogous collection of self defense attempts gone awry?

As for relative risk, your risk of dying from a criminal execution goes up dramatically when multiple armed robbers invade your home. I believe your risk of dying from an allergic reaction remains unchanged. When the invaders start engaging in acts of violence, your risk of dying from a criminal execution goes up dramatically, again. I suspect that your risk of dying in car accident remains stable. Statistics are dynamic... you can't take much comfort in your low risk of dying in a car crash when you've just driven off of a 200 foot cliff.
__________________
TB., NC
Tim Burke is offline  
Old November 28, 2001, 05:25 PM   #22
guncoach
Junior Member
 
Join Date: October 11, 2000
Posts: 9
Wannabes and fiction writers

i have been reading this site for about a year and this thread today. am an ex-mp from late fifties early sixties & N&V det. til early 70's,and all the responses except a few sound like someones dream of being a hero, it dont work that way, sounds like most responses are from little 13 year old boys playing cowboys and indians, like the obligatory holding the gun over your head turning it sidways and pointing at the victim as you always see in the movies now, get a life and go back your skateboard
guncoach is offline  
Old November 28, 2001, 08:27 PM   #23
LASur5r
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 20, 2000
Location: pasadena,california,America
Posts: 542
Sorry, Guncoach,

90% of my scenarios are written from real incidents with minor changes.
Your experiences as an LEO are your experiences and is the reality that you have lived. Each person has different experiences. Some are a lot worse, some are no life and death experiences.

We would like to hear stories from your experiences....I was asked by a well respected member of TFL over a year ago to write stories so that we could all learn from all your responses

It's funny, when I throw in a real story or two that happened to me, I usually get criticized or ostracized as being a wannabee or it was too preposterous. All I can say, is they did happen the way I put them down, except the ones that I say that I was killed.
And yes, I did stupid things, but that's reality.

We would greatly appreciate any stories that you have that we can all learn from. Thank you in advance.
LASur5r is offline  
Old November 28, 2001, 08:43 PM   #24
nbk2000
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 13, 2000
Posts: 216
From the dictionary:

Parable/noun/ A short story intended to illustrate a point of morality or behavior.

I also called it "the story" and "rant", nowhere did I say it was a literal event.

But I also know that all the various major parts of it (shootout, kidnap, suicide, cop-killing, bystanders run over, etc) HAS happened in real life. Anyone who watches COPS, America Most Wanted, Real TV, ad nausem has seen these events taking place. So I don't need to go out and find any ONE particular event to quote.

And I'm also sure that if I did spend enough time looking for it, I could find an almost identical event having happened somewhere at some point in human history. So that's irrelevant too.

In most of the cases where I've heard of a mass execution happening, it was because the BGs had already decided to this before they even went to the scene, in which case nothing you did (or didn't do) would have made much difference.

OR, they got ****** because someone tried to play hero and they retaliated by killing everyone for the foolish actions of one.

Hasher, I noticed you quoted just two events. Both of which happened in different years. Now I know that others have happened, but the fact that you only quoted two in the last two years shows (to me anyways) just how rare such events are.

American Rifleman has an article called "Armed Citizen" which appears every month. It's full of reports of relatively untrained people using guns to successfully defend themselves.

You're not telling me anything I don't already know. To quote myself:

Nothing major that'd get a write up in a "I Was There" magazine article, but hey, who want's to write about the great tactics they used in the gunfight they "won", if you have to write it from your wheelchair.

Also, being a gun magazine, I don't think it'd be good for their sales to publish all the stories about how guns DIDN'T solve the problem, made it worse in fact, and got the person maimed or killed.

As a matter of fact, when's the last time YOU'VE seen a story in ANY gun magazine that told about how someone (other than the storys BG or "innocent victim") got killed? I've NEVER seen one and I've been reading various rags for almost 20 years. And I'll probably read them for another 40 years and not see it then either.

I also don't recall any stories about successfully driving off 3 armed intruders who have the drop on you at a party.

Most of the stories I see are "Punks pulled a knife, I showed my gun, they ran away" or "I caught burglar in house, held him at gunpoint till cops came".

NOT "I got the drop on three armed robbers at my neighbors house party, killed all three, party resumed."

And let's say for a (very) brief moment that you DID somehow manage to get the drop on them? Now what?

Well, assuming you killed them, you've probably just "tramatized" (I hate using that word) every person there with images of brains and blood splattering all over the place. If there's any children present, you've just given years of nightmares and therapy.

You'll also (perversly) have probably turned everyone present into rabid anti-gunners because they won't really remember the robbers so much as the "nut" who killed three people and splattered the robbers brains over their friends faces, having turned a peaceful party into a wild orgy of death.

I'd also think it safe to say that you will NOT be getting anymore invitations to anyones parties who's heard about what you did. EVER.

A gun is not a magic talismen who's possesors are now immortal and invulnerable, and by mere presence prevents all evil within line of sight from happening.

A gun is a tool, who's proper use depends on both training, skill, experience, and the wisdom of knowing when it's NOT the proper tool to use for the task at hand.

The ability to recognize ones limitations is a sign of a truly wise person in any endeavor.

And since you mention statistics being dynamic....you're chances of being involved in a violent shootout increases dramatically if you're carrying a gun, much more so if you pull it, and exponentially so if you lack the sense of when NOT to pull it.

Your statistically less likely to be involved in a violent shootout if you live in high-income neighborhoods, are white, don't associate with criminals or irresponsible gun owners, and don't make careless lifestyle choices like making yourself a target by flaunting your wealth by living in the middle of a ghetto area.
nbk2000 is offline  
Old November 29, 2001, 12:48 AM   #25
LoneStranger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 5, 2000
Location: Lawrence, KS
Posts: 576
And since you mention statistics being dynamic....you're chances of being involved in a violent shootout increases dramatically if you're carrying a gun, much more so if you pull it, and exponentially so if you lack the sense of when NOT to pull it.

I really like this statement! There I am without a firearm on my person. BG decides to get involved in a violent shootout with me. Since I assume that the term shootout means an exchange of gunfire I guess I'll just reach down and pull out my gun.

At this point in time the absolute best that I can hope for is that the BG will fall down laughing and possibly hurt himself.

I don't make any claims to advanced schooling but that statement about CCW and violent shootouts should be subject to some kind of analysis which would show that it is very, very rinky dink
LoneStranger is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:47 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.15550 seconds with 7 queries