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Old November 9, 2001, 03:36 PM   #1
LASur5r
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Outside in your yard defense?

You are out in your garage quietly working on some project when you hear soft voices in the side yard, furthest from your garage.

You move quietly to a vantage point of cover and see two guys; one halfway in a side window, the other supporting the first BG's weight as he climbed into the window.
You have your cellphone and your CCW...First, does your state allow you to shoot the BG from this position? It is dusk, and they appear to be doing a breaking and enterring.

You called the cavalry and you wait?

You challenge them before they can get into your house?

What do you do?
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Old November 9, 2001, 03:51 PM   #2
coz
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Don't challenge unless you're in the ready position? Call first, leave the 911 op on the phone listening (witness).

Inform them that if they move toward you that you will be in fear of your life, and must respond with deadly force....

Don't respond with deadly force unless you see Intent, Ability and Opportunity for them to do so.....

In Texas you can, sort of, shoot someone to protect property, but, you better not, unless they are armed.

"Go for a low bleeding shot and drag em inside!"

I guess it's a dilemma..

Hopefully, they are stupid enough to pull knives and advance and you can practice a bit........
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Old November 9, 2001, 07:22 PM   #3
LASur5r
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wHAT ABOUT?

Coz,
What about if you are close enough to the rear door, zip over to that door without being seen and head them off at the pass inside the house?

Course, what if you have family members in the house and you hear a scream?

Guess it's head off to the shortest point to get them both under the gun and get them to reach for the sky?

Like to hear your opinion.
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Old November 9, 2001, 07:35 PM   #4
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You have family in the house?!? It's no brainer - shoot the bastards! Call 911 and tell them to bring garbage bags.
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Old November 9, 2001, 09:14 PM   #5
C.R.Sam
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Draggin a body inside is high risk. Too many things to go wrong and good investigator/s will pick up on the deed.

Sam
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Old November 9, 2001, 11:26 PM   #6
hedgehognh3
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Thats a great scenario.

In Michigan, only the state has the "right to kill" anyone.

If you were going to obey the law, where would be the best spot to place a round or two, or more that would have the best chance to stop the BG without killing him or leaving the opportunity for him to do you in??

I still think that one story is better than two in the end..
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Old November 10, 2001, 06:33 AM   #7
yankytrash
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The rule is survival -

If you don't have family in the house, and they didn't see you, get to a neighbor's house and call 911. Stay in the neighbor's house - if they're armed they might be willing to kill someone over your cheap stereo. You don't want a gunfight over a Sony.

If there's family in the house, you have no way of knowing whether they're armed or not, and you have to shoot. It'd be nice to think you'd take the time to plan out a non-mortal shot, but in reality a chest shot is what's going to happen. Shoot the top guy first so maybe his lifeless body will pin down his buddy long enough for you to throw a knee into his chin while family calls 911.

I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a judge that would convict you in the latter scenario, as long you're within the law in other respects. The officers that come on the scene will probably try to help you out in that case, as they don't have the same liberties we, as home defenders, do, in respects to shooting someone.
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Old November 10, 2001, 10:43 AM   #8
WilderBill
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I have heard more than once that the important part is that the BGs be found inside your house.
I have also heard that if you happen to choose that particular time to wash your sidewalk that it is coincidental as long as they are found IN your house and appear to have been intending you harm.
If they weren't armed you might want to have one of your steak knives found at least near them with their fingerprints.
Of course if you can hold them without ventilating them that would be better, but if their are two of them and one of you and they MIGHT be armed and intending to do you harm I wouldn't want to take a lot for granted.
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Old November 10, 2001, 12:22 PM   #9
coz
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If you have family in the house, like someone said...no brainer...double tap em both.

If you can get in the house and wait for em? Hmmm?

I think to be prudent, if there is no family in the house, then you should just call 911 and wait.....

But where's the fun in that?

I imagine, I would yell 'Hey, *******! You picked the wrong house today!" while standing with the sight focused on center mass.

If they ran, let em and call the cops. but, you might want to do the call 911, tell the operator you're gonna try to hold em.

If they throw down, you better be ready!
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Old November 10, 2001, 03:18 PM   #10
sinecure
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you SEE two guys...

... are you certain that there isn't already a 3rd cretin inside?

I go along with phoning 911 from a neighbor's house. If that is impossible, or other considerations make a confrontation imperative, here's my opinion:

Best to dial 911 [and hope you don't get a busy signal] draw weapon, take available cover, yell at the two dummies at the window that you are about to perforate them unless they lay down, one across the top of the other [makes for a LARGE target, plus provides a degree of immobility], then attend to the 911 operator [who, hopefully, has been listening to you since you dialed] and make sure the bluesuits are on the way.

Also, turn yourself into a camera and memorize as complete description of the suspects as you can. If they decide to make a run for it, let them as long as you are in no further danger. Stay behind cover until the good guys arrive and then have THEM clear your house, after informing them of any family, dogs, etc. inside.

Some of these cowboy responses are both scary and laughable. The old "Shoot 'em and drag 'em inside. [wink-wink]" attitude is an almost certain ticket to the legal ride of your life. Forget it. The consequences of shooting somebody aren't what you see on TV and movies.

As always,
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Old November 10, 2001, 09:57 PM   #11
slick slidestop
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In Texas, one of the Many justified reasons for using force is "to prevent theft at nighttime"

Not saying I would kill some kid for stealing my hubcaps, hubcaps are not worth someones life, but you could use deadly force. And yes probably be sued in a civil suit.

COZ,

Where did you take your class ? (assuming you took one)

"Go for a low bleeding shot and drag them inside" ? DO NOT Drag them anywhere, and why aim low? Do you want them to suffer???

"If you advance I will be in fear of my life and use deadly force...." I am NOT going to give the BG's a speach on what I might do
I may draw down and tell them to freeze, maybe that's all it would take to stop their B and E.

You say...... "Hopefully, they are stupid enough to pull knives and advance and you can practice a bit........"
I would NEVER hope someone pulls knives so that I can "practice a bit" Have you lost it??

If your post was in jest (I hope it was ) Please use Smilies so we don't think you are some kind of wacko or something
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Old November 11, 2001, 08:30 AM   #12
STEVE M
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Agree with what Slick said. If you think you have to change

evidence to make a shooting look legit, then even in your own

mind you have just commited attemted MURDER and are worse

than some 2 bit thief.
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Old November 11, 2001, 10:27 AM   #13
coz
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Definitely in jest....

Especially those you pointed out.....

Sorry about not using smilies......

If you think my responses were a bit crazy, start this thread on AR15 forum........

Cheers
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Old November 11, 2001, 10:30 AM   #14
coz
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BTW Slick slidestop....

You must have missed my 2nd post.........

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Old November 11, 2001, 04:43 PM   #15
slick slidestop
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I saw your 2nd post, I hoped you were kidding in your first, but even whackos have the occasional moment of clarity so I felt like I had to comment anyway

I don't have an AR yet, but I can imagine, and have heard, what some of those guys post......I know a lot of it is in jest. Since everyone is basically anonymous sometimes I think people just post really crazy stuff to see what kind of responses they will get.

I'm glad you are indeed a member of the human race as we know it
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Old November 12, 2001, 10:46 AM   #16
coz
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Slide stop?

Human? Me?

Well, there have been times I've been mistaken for other hairy things......LOL...need to shave my back again...

The AR15.com site is fun though....many many different forums..and threads.....some good folks there too.


Cheers
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Old November 13, 2001, 08:22 PM   #17
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As an example:
Some years back, I was home from work early, changing clothes for a cousin's funeral. I heard a slap sound, like a clipboard hitting a countertop. Walking dowstairs to check the noise, I saw a young lad shooting a .22 rifle through my back kitchen window.

He thought no one was home, and by shooting out the window, he could climb in without raising the window and setting off the alarm.

I reached into the closet, and pulled out a Model 19, and grabbed the phone on the wall. I called 911, and explained the situation and told them if they got there quick, I would not have to shoot the kid. Within three min, the cops were there, sirens blasting. Of course he ran off, and was not caught.

The Sheriff's Lt. said since he was shooting into my home, I would have been justified in killing him.

My thoughts were that I could have, at any time, just walked out the front door, and I never felt my life was in danger. His was, but not mine. So......I did not shoot. Was I right? Wrong? It is a moot point now. Bottom line is, in my humble opinion, shooting the little perp would have been unjustified.
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Old November 14, 2001, 02:57 PM   #18
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Mannlicher,

If he was 6'1", carrying a large caliber pistol or shotgun and in his 30's, would you have been as patient? What if he was an older guy, looked like a career criminal, but still only had a .22?

Just curious. I think that determining the three things that make it justifiable : Intent, opportunity and Ability to do you harm always come into play.

In your case, his age and weaponry choice made it seem that intent was missing?

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Old November 14, 2001, 09:25 PM   #19
boris_01
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New here. But wanted to add a reply. I believe that here in N.C. that if someone is actively breaking into an occupied dwelling that you can shoot them. Since you do not their intentions. If the dwelling is unoccupied, then not. And once inside even if it is occupied, if there is no immediate threat of death, serious injury or sexual assault then you cannot shoot. Too much to think about in the heat of the moment.
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Old November 16, 2001, 01:06 PM   #20
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I'm also coming into this late, but up here in AK we have a "duty to retreat" clause. so if your in your garage and see someone breaking into your house, by law you have to leave your property and call LE. Unless you have a family member in the house, then the gloves come off. Even if your the only one in your house and someone is breaking your supposed get out.

Our laws for CCW are mostly in the grey areas. Most of our LEO's think on there own not by the rule book. They know that a very big number in the state has a gun of some sort and that most people will not leave there house so some punk can rob you blind.

The cop that talked to us in my CCW class told us as long as there isnt any bullet holes (entrance holes) in the perps back you probably wont be tried for any crime.

In this situation I would just wait outside with a smile on my face. If the perps make it past our dog, they will be coming out real quick because my wife has an attitude and loves to shoot. Both of us will not be forced out of our house because some slug wants our TV.
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Old November 16, 2001, 05:41 PM   #21
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Coz: What do career criminals lookk like? I have worked with (ie supervised) habitual criminals. Also dealt with them when working security and as manager of various places. Still haven't found any way to tell by the look of someone if they are a goblin or not.

Mannlicher: I think your actions were correct. You made what you believed to be best decision at the time. And you survived with no injuries, don't see how you could improve on that.
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Old November 19, 2001, 12:21 PM   #22
coz
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Glam,

Well, I dunno what they, but according to Texas law, you can use deadly force if someone is in the process of breaking into your domicile.

Just passed my CHL Saturday, and thought of this post when I asked and double checked on that one.

Houstonians my recall that a few yrs ago a foreign visitor was shot and killed in West University area of Houston by a homeowner.

Guy was drunk. Knocked on the front door, then climbed the fence and was banging on the back door. Homeowner shot him through the door. No billed.

Like several have said, and the instructor said. Look at the circumstances, and the person/perp. If you are 70 yrs old, 5'6" and a 21 yr old 6'3" is breaking in, you'll probably, in your mind, be in fear for your life. If you're 6/3 and he's a small guy and not armed, you might want to just let him know you're there and ****** off....

career criminals look like O.J. Simpson or Gary Gilmore or John Wayne Gacy right?
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Old November 19, 2001, 12:50 PM   #23
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How did anyone make it through the razor wire, attack dogs, mote, and claymores. If they made it this far Im dead.


Actually if I am in my garage I would pull my Mosseberg 590 out of the trunk of my car and probably yell to my neighbor who is always on his back porch with a gun in reach and go ask the men to leave.
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Old November 20, 2001, 03:11 PM   #24
CMichael
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What is most important to me is protecting the life of my wife and myself. I would rather deal with the intruder the way I had to and sort out the legal ramifications later.

What is important is to never underestimate your opponent.
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