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Old October 27, 2001, 06:16 PM   #1
NMGlocker
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German proof houses

Does anyone have a web address for a photo listing of all the German proof house marks? I have several German pistols with various proof marks, and I was wondering where they came from.
Thanks
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Old October 27, 2001, 09:24 PM   #2
James K
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Maybe this will help. I don't know if all the below are active or what type of guns are proofed where, but here is a description of the marks:

Deer antler - Ulm/Donau (Walther)
Bear rampant - Berlin
Multipoint star - Kiel
Prancing horse - Hannover
Checkerboard in shield - Munich (Munchen)
Three crowns in shield - Cologne (Koln)
Sole of shoe with pick - Suhl (formerly in East Germany)

HTH

Jim
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Old October 27, 2001, 10:04 PM   #3
Ruben Nasser
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Germans are very meticulous about their proof marks and code systems. Take a look at the HK PRO site:
http://www.hkpro.com/symbols.htm
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Old October 27, 2001, 10:06 PM   #4
NMGlocker
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"Multipoint star - Kiel " I have heard this described as an "Oak Leaf"

The Ulm proofhouse (Stag Horn) is the one that H&K uses exclusively. My Walther is also proofed there.

My Sig P228 was proofed in Kiel, Germany.

sources:
http://www.hkpro.com/
http://home.t-online.de/home/cswimm/sig/sigfaq.htm
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Old October 28, 2001, 12:36 AM   #5
Ellery Holt
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For my personal edification, would someone post the nutshell explaination of what purpose Proofing serves?
 
Old October 28, 2001, 01:11 AM   #6
NMGlocker
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Purpose of proofing

from: http://www.hkpro.com/symbols.htm
"The symbol to the right of the date code is a stag horn. It is the symbol of a particular proof house, located in Ulm, Germany. German firearms are sent to proof houses before sale, for inspection and quality control. This is much like a 'UL' listing for American small appliances. There are other proof houses, for example, in Kiel and Hannover, Germany, but HK uses the Ulm proof house exclusively."

Proofing helps assure quality, by mandating that someone other than the manufacturer inspect the item. Thats my guess anyway.
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Old October 28, 2001, 01:25 AM   #7
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I would presume that's where they do "proofing" i.e. firing of "proof loads" which are basically +P++ (each caliber has a specified pressure rating for their proof loads). Usually around double normal pressure or so. The theory being, if the steel is weak (per the Titanic) a high pressure load is gonna crack it. If it doesn't crack, then it's probably safe for use.

-Morgan
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Old October 28, 2001, 02:25 PM   #8
Herr Walther
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Quote:
"Multipoint star - Kiel " I have heard this described as an "Oak Leaf"
It looks more like someone squashed a bug under their heel.

For all you wanted to ever know about proof marks and proof laws of several european countries read "The Standard Directory of Proof Marks" by Gerhard Wirnsberger. Translated by R.A. Steindler.

It also contains an extensive list of WWII ordinance codes.
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Old October 28, 2001, 10:24 PM   #9
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Neat thread!
My EAA Windicator has the "Eagle over the N",the "checkerboard in the shield"(Thanx Jim keenan) and another unknown shield with AA inside.Anybody know that one?
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Old October 29, 2001, 11:50 AM   #10
Herr Walther
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Could be the datecode. AA would be a manufacture date of 2000, but I'm not familiar with EAA practises.
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"...a historian asked what had happened to the German people for them to accept a criminal government. Unfortunately, nothing needed to happen. In nations across the world people accept government crime."
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"In democracies as well as dictatorships, subordinates illegally obey their rulers. Subordinates who remain true to their oaths of office by opposing their rulers are rare."
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Old October 30, 2001, 10:22 PM   #11
James K
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Proof started in England, where the London gunmakers formed a guild, the nicely named "The Master, Wardens and Society of the Misterie of Gunmakers of the City of London", later called "The Worshipful Company of Gunmakers" or just "The Gunmakers Company."

These worthy gentlemen got the right (probably with the help of a handsome bribe to the King), to inspect and test all barrels made in London and surroundings. They also got the right to seize and proof any unproofed barrel and to confiscate any whose owner or maker refused to submit it to proof.

Of course, by no coincidence, most barrels that failed proof were those made by gunmakers who were not members of "the company", whether domestic or foreign, even though those were, in truth, often of much lesser quality than London guns.

Later laws extended the proof requirement throughout the country and established the Birmingham proof house.

In fairness, the proof laws made English guns the safest and most highly rated firearms in the world, and kept out a lot of very bad junk.

Later, as other nations established proof laws, the laws of the continental nations copied to a large extent the English and there were agreements to recognize each other's proof marks. The U.S. has never had a national proof law, American makers usually producing guns that were as safe as guns made under proof laws, and American guns sold in England must be proofed.

One interesting sidelight is that Remington uses a proof equivalent to the English, and the "REP" mark means Remington English Proof. The "REP" is, nonetheless, not recognized in England.

Jim
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