Need input on an article on the FOIA/PRA and similar...

Jim March · October 24, 2001, 01:01 AM

Hi all,

On a lark, I've decided to write up a layman's guide to using the Freedom Of Information Act or it's state and local equivelents to advance freedom in creative ways. I've been using the California version, the Public Records Act, in various activities, fr'instance it was PRA requests against SF General that really sank the MMM's boat - everything else was just toppings

.

Basically, I believe these tools can accomplish four things:

1) Actually get valuable data.

2) Prove that a gov't agency doesn't know something that they should; for example, SF General only knew about one org versus the eight or more that were actually infesting the place.

3) Prove that a government agency is lying through their teeth, if you already have another channel for the info in question.

4) Educate the agency - an FOIA or similar is a gov't document they cannot ignore, therefore it's possible to plant info in it in at least limited ways. But be warned - filing an FOIA always sends info of SOME sort back into the agency. See also Neal Stephenson's novel "Cryptonomicon" for a solid feel for accidental two-way info flow. It's a novel that does for freedom of speech and privacy what John Ross did for the RKBA.

Is anybody interested in a fairly long treatise of this sort? It'll be at least as long as either of the KABA articles on the MMM I did.

Second, besides RKBA issues, what OTHER sorts of "freedom issues" would be people here think of using data requests for? I've actually done one on radical environmentalism that I've kept quiet about.

I figure more of "our kind" need to feel comfortable with this stuff...if it was potent enough to kill off the MMM, it needs broader usage

.

labgrade · October 24, 2001, 09:55 AM

Betcha, Jim. Something that we could put to good use.

BTW, do you sleep?

dischord · October 24, 2001, 10:05 AM

Jim,

There's a great on-line guide to FOIA by the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press at http://www.rcfp.org/foiact/index.html

Back when I was a member of the press, I used the paper version of this guide quite frequently. You might want to cite it or recommend it in your guide.

In general, I'd recommend a few points on the federal law:

1) Unless you are a member of the press, FOIA ain't free (and it's not free for the press after the first 100 pages). You get charged for search time and typcially a per-page copying fee. Thus it is in your best financial interest to do some preliminary research so you can describe the document in a way that cuts down on the search time and to be specific enough to narrow the number of documents you get. I've seen document dumps from non-specifc requests -- paper up to my armpits (no exageration) -- that cost money and contained only a few pages of interesting or useful information. Sorting through that is almost as bad as not getting the information at all. You should add a line to each request along the lines of "Contact me if the cost/# docs exceed X."

2) You can't make the government create documents. It is required only to reveal existing documents. In other words, you can't use FOIA to create an analysis of government activity if that analysis does not already exist. Don't waste their time with that -- they consider it harrassing, and you know the delays that bureaucrats can cause if they don't like you. You might sour the milk on future requests.

3) The goverment is required to respond within (IIRC) 10 days. However that does NOT mean you'll get your stuff within 10 days. "Respond" does not mean "fulfill." You'll simply get a letter saying they got it, you're at the back of the line, and they'll get to you when they can. I've seen requests fulfilled in a week. I've seen them take more than three years. FOIA officers go through their request queues looking for requests that they can dispose of quickly while they simultaneously work on the complicated ones. If you make your request easily disposable (see item 1) you are more likely to get your documents quickly.

4) If you do a lot of requests, pay your bills. They will cut off your request rights if you do not. Knowing of your bills may not be as easy as you are used to. When you get your documents, you might get a four or five page letter explaining what FOIA exemptions they used to redact/withhold portions. Somewhere within that letter might be a single line telling you that you owe money. THAT IS THE ONLY "BILL" YOU WILL GET FROM SOME AGENCIES. If you overlook one line in four or five pages, you might become in arrears without even knowing it. Yes, you can get your FOIA-rights back by paying it, but avoid the hassle. Lesson: skim every correspondence from them looking for a money figure.

C.R.Sam · October 25, 2001, 02:46 AM

Jim.....YES.

Dischord.....WOW

Looks like it has started.

Cool

Sam

Pendragon · October 25, 2001, 01:04 PM

I think more information would be helpful.

I served my local Sheriff department with a PRAR request yesterday after Jim helped me - actually, Jim did all the work, all I did was print, sign and deliver.

Thats this could be helpful - if there are fronts where we can fight and gain inteligence, then it is extremely helpful to have some of these things already made to order.

I was pondering in email to Jim - if its so easy to get this CCW info, why has nobody done it? I am afraid that the answer is simply "no one has bothered and no one thinks they can affect change".

Really, would it be THAT hard to gain ALL the CCW data in California? At least at the Sheriff level, I think it would not be that hard. All we need are a few dozen more guys who can walk in to the Sheriff department in their county and say "hi, here is a letter requesting public information - have a nice day".

I am kinda swerving off topic a bit, but this is a powerful tool that we can use.

The political left has been doing this stuff for decades - but most of us are newbies at grabbing the government by the ear and getting something done.

jimpeel · October 25, 2001, 02:43 PM

That guide already exists at: http://www.tcsn.net/doncicci/foia/foia_indx.html

A Citizen's Guide On Using The Freedom Of Information Act And The Privacy Act of 1974 To Request Government Records

Jim March · October 26, 2001, 12:14 AM

I've been busy for the last two days, but as soon as I can I'll read over the existing FOIA article linked above.

What I suspect may be useful is a "strategic addendum" to that article; from what I can see so far, it's pretty "dry".

In other words, rely on that for most of the "nuts and bolts" but write up a guide to what you can really do with it, using case examples.

I doubt the authors of that technical article ever envisioned using it to educate an agency, or deliberately catch them lying, or prove they didn't know something that they *should* have known.

That latter trick was what cracked the MMM.

October 24, 2001, 01:01 AM	#1
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 7,016	Need input on an article on the FOIA/PRA and similar... Hi all, On a lark, I've decided to write up a layman's guide to using the Freedom Of Information Act or it's state and local equivelents to advance freedom in creative ways. I've been using the California version, the Public Records Act, in various activities, fr'instance it was PRA requests against SF General that really sank the MMM's boat - everything else was just toppings . Basically, I believe these tools can accomplish four things: 1) Actually get valuable data. 2) Prove that a gov't agency doesn't know something that they should; for example, SF General only knew about one org versus the eight or more that were actually infesting the place. 3) Prove that a government agency is lying through their teeth, if you already have another channel for the info in question. 4) Educate the agency - an FOIA or similar is a gov't document they cannot ignore, therefore it's possible to plant info in it in at least limited ways. But be warned - filing an FOIA always sends info of SOME sort back into the agency. See also Neal Stephenson's novel "Cryptonomicon" for a solid feel for accidental two-way info flow. It's a novel that does for freedom of speech and privacy what John Ross did for the RKBA. Is anybody interested in a fairly long treatise of this sort? It'll be at least as long as either of the KABA articles on the MMM I did. Second, besides RKBA issues, what OTHER sorts of "freedom issues" would be people here think of using data requests for? I've actually done one on radical environmentalism that I've kept quiet about. I figure more of "our kind" need to feel comfortable with this stuff...if it was potent enough to kill off the MMM, it needs broader usage . __________________ Jim March

October 24, 2001, 10:05 AM	#3
dischord Senior Member Join Date: October 2, 2000 Location: Virginia Posts: 945	Jim, There's a great on-line guide to FOIA by the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press at http://www.rcfp.org/foiact/index.html Back when I was a member of the press, I used the paper version of this guide quite frequently. You might want to cite it or recommend it in your guide. In general, I'd recommend a few points on the federal law: 1) Unless you are a member of the press, FOIA ain't free (and it's not free for the press after the first 100 pages). You get charged for search time and typcially a per-page copying fee. Thus it is in your best financial interest to do some preliminary research so you can describe the document in a way that cuts down on the search time and to be specific enough to narrow the number of documents you get. I've seen document dumps from non-specifc requests -- paper up to my armpits (no exageration) -- that cost money and contained only a few pages of interesting or useful information. Sorting through that is almost as bad as not getting the information at all. You should add a line to each request along the lines of "Contact me if the cost/# docs exceed X." 2) You can't make the government create documents. It is required only to reveal existing documents. In other words, you can't use FOIA to create an analysis of government activity if that analysis does not already exist. Don't waste their time with that -- they consider it harrassing, and you know the delays that bureaucrats can cause if they don't like you. You might sour the milk on future requests. 3) The goverment is required to respond within (IIRC) 10 days. However that does NOT mean you'll get your stuff within 10 days. "Respond" does not mean "fulfill." You'll simply get a letter saying they got it, you're at the back of the line, and they'll get to you when they can. I've seen requests fulfilled in a week. I've seen them take more than three years. FOIA officers go through their request queues looking for requests that they can dispose of quickly while they simultaneously work on the complicated ones. If you make your request easily disposable (see item 1) you are more likely to get your documents quickly. 4) If you do a lot of requests, pay your bills. They will cut off your request rights if you do not. Knowing of your bills may not be as easy as you are used to. When you get your documents, you might get a four or five page letter explaining what FOIA exemptions they used to redact/withhold portions. Somewhere within that letter might be a single line telling you that you owe money. THAT IS THE ONLY "BILL" YOU WILL GET FROM SOME AGENCIES. If you overlook one line in four or five pages, you might become in arrears without even knowing it. Yes, you can get your FOIA-rights back by paying it, but avoid the hassle. Lesson: skim every correspondence from them looking for a money figure. __________________ Another member of the TFL diaspora Last edited by dischord; October 24, 2001 at 10:31 AM.

October 25, 2001, 02:43 PM	#6
jimpeel Senior Member Join Date: October 12, 1999 Location: Longmont, CO, USA Posts: 4,391	Jim That guide already exists at: http://www.tcsn.net/doncicci/foia/foia_indx.html A Citizen's Guide On Using The Freedom Of Information Act And The Privacy Act of 1974 To Request Government Records __________________ Gun Control: The premise that a woman found in an alley, raped and strangled with her own pantyhose, is morally superior to allowing that same woman to defend her life with a firearm. "Science is built up with facts, as a house is with stones. But a collection of facts is no more a science than a heap of stones is a house." - Jules Henri Poincare "Three thousand people died on Sept. 11 because eight pilots were killed" -- former Northwest Airlines pilot Stephen Luckey

October 26, 2001, 12:14 AM	#7
Jim March Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 1999 Location: Pittsburg, CA, USA Posts: 7,016	I've been busy for the last two days, but as soon as I can I'll read over the existing FOIA article linked above. What I suspect may be useful is a "strategic addendum" to that article; from what I can see so far, it's pretty "dry". In other words, rely on that for most of the "nuts and bolts" but write up a guide to what you can really do with it, using case examples. I doubt the authors of that technical article ever envisioned using it to educate an agency, or deliberately catch them lying, or prove they didn't know something that they should have known. That latter trick was what cracked the MMM. __________________ Jim March

October 24, 2001, 09:55 AM	#2
labgrade Member In Memoriam Join Date: November 29, 1999 Location: west of a small town, CO Posts: 4,346	Betcha, Jim. Something that we could put to good use. BTW, do you sleep?

October 25, 2001, 02:46 AM	#4
C.R.Sam Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 1999 Location: Dewey, AZ Posts: 12,864	Jim.....YES. Dischord.....WOW Looks like it has started. Cool Sam

October 25, 2001, 01:04 PM	#5
Pendragon Senior Member Join Date: August 10, 2001 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 1,153	I think more information would be helpful. I served my local Sheriff department with a PRAR request yesterday after Jim helped me - actually, Jim did all the work, all I did was print, sign and deliver. Thats this could be helpful - if there are fronts where we can fight and gain inteligence, then it is extremely helpful to have some of these things already made to order. I was pondering in email to Jim - if its so easy to get this CCW info, why has nobody done it? I am afraid that the answer is simply "no one has bothered and no one thinks they can affect change". Really, would it be THAT hard to gain ALL the CCW data in California? At least at the Sheriff level, I think it would not be that hard. All we need are a few dozen more guys who can walk in to the Sheriff department in their county and say "hi, here is a letter requesting public information - have a nice day". I am kinda swerving off topic a bit, but this is a powerful tool that we can use. The political left has been doing this stuff for decades - but most of us are newbies at grabbing the government by the ear and getting something done.