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Old October 16, 2001, 07:52 AM   #1
Matt Wallis
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Anybody train in any sword arts here?

Just curious and was wondering if anyone trains in any sword arts here? It's something I dabble in myself and I was wondering what people's thoughts on the subject were. Obviously not the most practical MA (in terms of modern use), but I still enjoy it very much.

Regards,
Matt
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Old October 16, 2001, 11:27 AM   #2
MAGon
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Matt: I've trained in Kenjutsu for the past 3 yrs. You're right on both counts: It sure isn't practical but it is fun!
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Old October 16, 2001, 12:00 PM   #3
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Japanese National Police are required to either be proficient in Kendo or Judo, their choice. It makes for some interesting mentoring within the force (and promotion tendencies) but I wouldn't call Kendo 'useless.' It translates into a whole lot of fast reflexes and control, and helps with baton work (though jutte practice does more for that.)

Styles like Espada y Daga are worth noting too ... well I know people can't go around carrying Kwandaos in public, but anyone with a cane or umbrella can benefit from the practice, or no?
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Old October 16, 2001, 12:42 PM   #4
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Kendo, Iaido, Hapkido, Wu Shu.

Swordcraft in Martial Arts is for discipline purposes, although it sure helps me hit somebody with a stick if I had to.
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Old October 16, 2001, 01:08 PM   #5
LASur5r
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Sword arts?

Iaido, Naginatado(Horse Blade?), yarido(spear),Wu Dip Do (Wing Chun Butterfly Swords), Tai Ch'i gim, other types of kung fu bladed weapons, Kali.

Looked at it as learning a part of the whole.

In my young days, I loved the movies and I could project in my head the live art of the katas(imaginary opponents) did well in tournaments with kata contests.
Learned one point focus by doing this a lot. Also did a lot of demonstrations.

In self-defense/street fights...found out very few opponents attacked that way. Maybe i should have had my fights in Japan or China?

Refocussed my efforts...doing okay with self-defense. No more katas.
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Old October 16, 2001, 02:32 PM   #6
MiloMorai
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Still do my katas daily. Helps with technique and concentration. Calms me down
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Old October 16, 2001, 03:50 PM   #7
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Naginata = "long chopper" ... a nata is a machete.
Yarido = ? I've heard of it as So-jutsu (Spear method) but never as a complete art. I learn new things daily from you LASur5r lol

Still do my training. Now that I have more time.
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Old October 16, 2001, 08:15 PM   #8
LASur5r
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Gomen

Mahakorin,
Gomen nasai...
When I was learning the arts, we had a lot of instructors, who did not speak English...neither did we speak Japanese, Okinawaan, or Korean. So it was word by painstaking word and I don't beleive that we got those right. Techniques were taught by the instructor often grabbing our limbs and literally moving our arms, legs, etc. to do the move.
My apologies for using the wrong terminology in the Japanese language....gomen nasai. I did not learn to speak the language or use the words properly. For that I am embarrassed.

You should see how I have mangled the Spanish language. LOL and that's very recently.
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Old October 17, 2001, 06:59 AM   #9
Matt Wallis
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Sword Technique transfering to other items...

In Europe the art of Single Stick is descended from sword arts. Also there is another stick fighting art called "Great Stick" which holds many similarities to Longsword technique.

Also, I'm curious, of those of you who practice sword arts, how many of you incorporate any sparring into your training? For those of us resurrecting Western Arts, sparring plays a big role. How about the rest of you?

Regards,
Matt
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Old October 17, 2001, 04:14 PM   #10
Mahakorin
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OMG

Now I feel bad ... LASur5r it's ok ... all I know is the language compared to you LOL

Naginata as you might have heard is taught primarily to girls. Had an ex-gf who was really good with one. Fortunately did not find out the hard way, but I've heard of chicks with brooms back in high school whacking people left and right.

We fight with mops in the barracks. Not fun!
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Old October 18, 2001, 07:23 AM   #11
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No eastern arts officially, but I do practice modern Olympic style fencing. Getting in to saber. Also Bayonet drills for American Civil War demonstrations (@ 3/4speed). Some general stick fighting as well. Only eastern style martial art I have had was a few sessions of Tai Chi. Would love to continue, but have had other pressing business.

-Wheelgun
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Old October 18, 2001, 02:53 PM   #12
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Kendo, Balintawak, that kind of thing.
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Old October 18, 2001, 06:52 PM   #13
Matt Wallis
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Hey Wheelgun,

Don't worry about the no Eastern Arts thing. The swordsmanship I practice (dabble in, really) is mostly medieval longsword of the German style. In fact, if you're interested I belong to a Classical Fencing list that I lurk on and can recommend several cool websites for Western Martial Arts.

But I still really would like to know how many of you (if any!) incorporate some form of sparring into your sword training (Kendo does of course, but then, how much work with real swords do Kendoka do?).

Thanks,
Matt
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Old October 18, 2001, 10:09 PM   #14
Spectre
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Kukishin ryu kenjutsu...(as well as sojutsu, incidentally).

It has said that, if one could only train in one art for unarmed defense, kenjutsu would be it! The reason being, the superior timing and distancing one can learn, if well practicted.

Side note: Mahakorin, they claimed as of 10-1, all 11series go in initially as 11X. Public announcement will follow as shipout approaches.
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Old October 19, 2001, 08:02 PM   #15
LASur5r
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Point of information

Mahakorin,
Please correct me if I am wrong.

Matt,
It is the art of iaido that is where you practice with a live blade. Kendo is where you use the shinai (bamboo) swords, but make full contact.

Obviously, the difficulty is getting enough opponents to practice with you when you are wielding a live blade.

Once, I had been volunteered to help at a demonstration for some kind of businessmen's club and my instructor said that he would use a live blade, but he was experienced in it. Who am I to question the instructor?

Anyway, it started out slowly, but I could tell the instructor was really "getting into it"...I was using a bo (wooden staff) and I was blocking all of his strikes and he started to strike harder and faster, then he finally stood back in an attacking stance and came down in a vertical strike to my forehead. I had only learned the standard horizontal block to that cut (hold stick on ends and raise up parallel to ground?) Only trouble is, I found out that that blade was razor sharp and he split the bo in half....from my old jiujitsu school I had the heavily padded judo gi and that was just enough to slow the blade down when I turned quickly and in an angle so that he hit my collar bone....I walked off stage with a split bo, and a "scrape" cut along my collar bone.
i was cussing up a storm backstage about idiots and live blades and not knowing when to not do this kind of stuff. About a year later, I left that school in search of a more practical art., more likely a more mature sensei.
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Old October 19, 2001, 10:12 PM   #16
Spectre
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Agreed about your sensei.

The correct block with bo is to slip to one side. "Throw" the bo over your head, with bo angling at perhaps a 45' angle down to one side, with the high end also slightly forward. The high hand will encircle the bo, while the low hand cups the shaft of the staff, taking care to keep the bo in front of the hand. The angle will tend to make even live blades slip down and behind you, instead of cutting through your bo. The receiving posture I mention is similar to the one shown here from http://home.luna.nl/~risu/takamatsu.htm (and in fact, if you have the patience to watch the moving picture at the upper left for a minute, you will see this block displayed)
You want a little more up/down angle than the defender is displaying.

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Old October 20, 2001, 01:13 AM   #17
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...actually, imagine the defender's rear leg was in front, and his bo was reversed (high end forward).
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Old October 20, 2001, 03:44 AM   #18
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For "realistic" stick sparring, check out the Dog Brothers:

http://www.dogbrothers.com/

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Old October 20, 2001, 08:29 AM   #19
Matt Wallis
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live blades...

First off, just for the record, when I hear (read) or say "live steel" I usually assume we're talking about a real sword that is sharp. Is that the definition we're all going with here? I've heard some people refer to fighting with blunted or rebaited (sp?) swords also as "live steel" but that's not usually what I think it means.

"Obviously, the difficulty is getting enough opponents to practice with you when you are wielding a live blade."

Whoo-ee! Under my definition of live steel I have to say I'd never "spar" or demo with it! Solo work (we don't really have kata in Western Arts) and test cutting is all I'd do with true "live steel." Truthfully I've never really even done any training with blunted swords (yet!), but I've heard even that can be dangerous enough.

"Kendo is where you use the shinai (bamboo) swords, but make full contact."

So would you say that Kendo, by itself, is not really a sword art any more and is really just stick fighting now? Or is Kendo always accompanied by other sword practice such as Iaido that gives it a more well rounded technique?

"For "realistic" stick sparring, check out the Dog Brothers."

Heard about them, man. Isn't their motto "higher consciousness through harder contact" or something like that? Heh, heh. I'm not afraid of a little hard contact, but let's just say that's not for me!

Regards,
Matt
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Old October 20, 2001, 05:53 PM   #20
Spectre
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In the Jinenkan, we train with fukaro shinai. These are flexible and well-padded, so we can practice realistically, without all the limitations (and armor!) of kendo.
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Old October 20, 2001, 06:03 PM   #21
Skorzeny
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Matt Wallis:

Check out their picture section and see what kind of injuries result from the "higher consciousness."

BTW, they were pioneers in what is called "stick-grappling."

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Old October 20, 2001, 10:15 PM   #22
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Perhaps in "modern combatatives". Skorzeny, I'm sure you're aware that Kukishin ryu staff work has been around for centuries. Grappling is a part of the curriculum.
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Old October 22, 2001, 05:05 AM   #23
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LABAN TULISAN
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we substitute the bolo(sword) with a rattan stick when training and sparring
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Old October 24, 2001, 11:25 AM   #24
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I teach fencing at the Fencing Academy of Philadelphia, the modern Olympic-style fencing mentioned by Wheelgun. I fenced sabre for a few years and now I'm getting into epee. I teach mostly foil.

In direct application it's not very useful in the real world, but indirectly it is precious training. Fencing is one of the very few modern martial arts that allows full contact all the time in training. This is a very important point.

In any sort of hand-to-hand combat, a sense of timing and distance (the most important factors in a fight) are heavily emphasized in fencing.

I have studied several asian and eastern martial arts and have black belts in Kobujutsu and SHotokan, and I have found that with a good base in an asiian martial art, fencing is the best fight training around.
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Old October 25, 2001, 04:12 PM   #25
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Well i have been Fencing from the age of 6, my Fencing Master is Nick Evangelista,if you know any thing about Fencing books, then you know he made the best selling Fencing book of all time, The Encyclopedia Of The Sword.
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