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Old October 9, 2001, 07:52 PM   #1
M1911
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Handgun Retention Class

I finally took a Hamilton/Insights method handgun retention class. I won't give major details of the methods on an open bulletin board (even if I could properly describe the methods, which I can't -- they really have to be demonstrated). The class was given by a local organization -- http://www.aware.org

The instructors had trained with John Holschen and Greg Hamilton at Insights: http://www.insightstraining.com/ps/c.../unarm/hrd.htm

This was a shortened version of the class, only 1 day long, as opposed to Insight's 2 day class.

I've previously taken the Lindell method, both from Aware and at LFI-2. My concern with the Lindell method is that, for me at least, I think it works well in the dojo at slow speed with a cooperating partner, but I have my doubts about whether it would work on the street if TSHTF without a LOT more practice. The Lindell method has a number of different techniques which must be matched to the attack -- e.g., a strong-side, palm-up attack to a drawn gun is met with technique X, a weak-side attack with technique Y, etc. It would take a lot of practice before I could diagnose an attack quickly enough to counter it.

The Insights method is definitely simpler, with less techniques. The Insights method is also destructive, focusing on elbow strikes and close fighting. The Insights method is really part of their integrated close-quarters combat technique. The good thing is that I think their techniques are effective. The bad thing is that I'm not sure that I can internalize all of their techniques in just a one day class. Like most people, I'm used to fighting at a distance. Their method is to get in close, inside the normal punching range. I think it will take more practice before I can get used to doing that.

Some of the good things in the Aware version of the Insights class is that they use both a tactical dummy (held up by one of the instructors) and a FIST suit, so you can practice some of the techniques at full force. At the end of the course, the instructor was in the FIST suit attacking you. This was a very dynamic attack and you learned pretty quickly whether you could apply the techniques when everything goes to sh*t.

I would definitely like to take the Insights Unarmed Self Defense class and their 2-day Handgun Retention class.

M1911
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Old October 10, 2001, 10:24 AM   #2
Marty Hayes
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Any method that relies on destructive techniques also hinges on physical strength to overpower an opponent. Having said that, if you possess the physical strength to do the techniques properly, no prob. But, as an instructor, I believe I need to teach techniques that people who are not the most physically fit can also do. Hence, I started teaching the LIndell method about 7-8 years ago, and continue to do so today.

As previously stated, it takes practice to master the techniques. I got news for you, mastering ANY skill takes practice. If a person took the time to practice WR as much as they do shooting, they would either be very skilled at WR or lousy at shooting too.

The Lindell method relies on leverage, not strength. Thus, pretty much anyone who has a reasonable level of physical strength and mobility can learn the techiques.
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Old October 11, 2001, 02:07 AM   #3
Brian Killing Tangos
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Hey Marty,

Tony Blauer said it best:

" Show them what they can do, not what you can do! "
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Old October 16, 2001, 06:08 PM   #4
M1911
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Marty:

You (and Ayoob) make valid points about the Lindell system. It does use leverage, not strength. That said, as one of my 5' 0" female instructors who used to teach Lindell mentioned, it seems that some of the Lindell techniques work better for larger people. In particular, some of the long, sweeping arm movements didn't seem to work well for a short person defending against a large attacker. But the fact that it is based upon leverage certainly is an advantage of the Lindell system.

I still think the Lindell system has disadvantages. There are too many techniques to learn quickly. The techniques themselves work fine when done just right with a cooperative partner, but what happens when during a very dynamic attack, when the things all go to sh!t? I'm just not convinced that I could make the Lindell techniques work in such circumstances. I'm sure that you or Ayoob could.

Both methods certainly have advantages and disadvatages. The Insights method has fewer techniques that I think will be easier for me to use in practice. YMMV.

M1911

Last edited by M1911; October 16, 2001 at 07:51 PM.
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Old October 18, 2001, 11:41 AM   #5
Marty Hayes
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As said anything before, any martial arts takes practice to excell. A person should not expect to achieve competence without effort. A one or two day seminar and that's it will not solve the problem.

One of the graduations exercises of our advanced handgun retention class is to blindfold the student, then attack the gun. Student needs to "feel" the attack and execute the counter to complete the task.

One thing not only about Lindell system and other police based defensive tactics is that continued practice seems to result in competence on the street, as in-service training once or twice a year seems to suffice for the average cop, although I would like to see much more practice.
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Old October 18, 2001, 02:31 PM   #6
blades67
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I have found that taking classes like these is better when you go with a friend. After the class or seminar is over you have a partner to practice with. Helps keep the information fresh and builds the skill over time better than trying to practice by yourself.
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Old October 19, 2001, 09:18 AM   #7
M1911
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blades:

I did. Problem is we're both busy...

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