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Old September 30, 2001, 01:13 PM   #1
Master Blaster
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Important Government Officials all have biosuits and gas masks, how about you and I?

I'm so glad to hear that the government and the police and the national guard have their vaccines and biosuits and gas masks!!
The Government is ready for a chemical or biological attack assure the talking heads on the Boob Tube!!

So How many plain pesants here know where their bio suit and mask is? This pesant/ subject is unaware where the protection is for my family, seems to me we are unprepared.

How about the rest of the TFLers, anyone form the Givernment contacted you to let you know what to do in case of attack?


Just dont panic
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Old September 30, 2001, 01:43 PM   #2
Jeff Thomas
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It is more than a little irritating, isn't it? "Don't worry, don't panic ..., and, by the way, your government 'servants' are better protected than you are ..."
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Old September 30, 2001, 03:36 PM   #3
Brett Bellmore
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Yup, "Don't worry, we've got the gas masks, we'll distribute them as soon after the attack as it's safe to do so. And we'll have those vaccines out there as soon as the epidemic dies down." Morons. Vaccines don't do a thing if they're not in your bloodstream, gas masks are useless if you have to walk through poison gas to reach them. Their whole response to terrorism is predicated on the notion that the government will do EVERYTHING, and the average person will be done for or to, but will contribute nothing but taxes to pay for it.

I was listening to somebody from the government describe their response plan in the event of a bio-warfare attack, and it was a JOKE. Contain the infection, vacinate the surroundings, and accept that everybody who got attacked was going to die. But nobody was supposed to do anything but the government.

Frankly, I live in a rural area, and seldom venture into the city. If I need a gas mask out here, this country is toast! But there are things I can do to prepare, that the government has nothing to do with, except for discouraging them if anybody brings them up.

Stockpiling. A month's supply of food and water, toilet paper and the like. If there's a biological warfare attack, there's no better defense than holing up in your home, and waiting until the people who got hit aren't contagious anymore.
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Old September 30, 2001, 05:13 PM   #4
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And you can bet their families are protected also.
We on the other hand are expendable, we are the goyim (cattle/sheeple).

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Old September 30, 2001, 05:36 PM   #5
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You mean...

...my ABC Family preparedness Kit isn't in the mail?

The media types have been telling us that a gas mask won't be of any value anyway because by the time that you find uot you need it it is too late, that most bios/chems can be absorbed through the skin so a mask will be of little use.

I live in rural Willamette Valley so I am noty to conrened out here, however (Hopefully!) I will become employed soon at a company in Beaverton (70 miles NNW from home) and I think a mask would be helpful, if I need to bug out of the city, am I wrong? Also will Clean Room suits protect against asorbtion of Bios/Chems via the skin?
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Old September 30, 2001, 10:19 PM   #6
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Any non-breathable suit with few or no ways for air to get in or out will improve your chances. There are not gaurantees. For the poor man, you can use plastic grocery bags to create a bio/chem suit, it's easy to work with, melts easily, and it can be easily cut and layered over a cloth suit. Best part is that you can wash it off afterward, which is critical if you ever wanna get out of it... The other thing you can use are some wet suits, which will not be perfect, but certainly an improvement over bare skin contact...
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Old September 30, 2001, 11:34 PM   #7
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Really, in the event of a mass chemical attack, all the Army's NBC gear isn't going to do much but allow you to complete the mission. A clean room suit isn't going to do anything for you (tyvek right?), most chemicals that would be used are also corrosive, anything you whip up isn't going to do jack. If the government did sell protective masks, would you be willing to shell out for new canisters for your family of 6 twice a year?
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Old October 1, 2001, 08:50 AM   #8
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I wonder...

who the government will govern afterwards - themselves??? Incredible thought, eh?
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Old October 1, 2001, 09:37 AM   #9
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Quote:
I'm so glad to hear that the government and the police and the national guard have their vaccines and biosuits and gas masks!!
We have? Wow...I musta missed something.

Here's the only problem with having gas masks and biosuits and stuff like that- you have to know when to put them on. In the case of bio agents, the first indication that soemthing is amiss will be when people start getting sick. Thats several days (or more) after exposure. The mask/suit ain't gonna help you. In the case of chemical agents it can make a difference, but you gotta have the mask or suit right there and ready to go, which no one does.

Vaccines are a no-brainer, but 1. remember all the hoo-haw about 'forcing' troops to have their shots prior to the Gulf War? And about how some people supposedly became sick from them? You wanna do that on a nationwide scale with every liberal hand-wringer bleating for all its worth? 2. We have drawn down our bio-warfare materiel so much that its doubtful that we can innoculate large swaths of the country in a timely fashion anymore.

I'll agree that our responses to this *SUCK* and that individuals (as always) need to step up to the plate...its just that, much as I hate to say it, the old strength in numbers argument ('it probably won't happen to you') remains the best defense.

Mike
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Old October 1, 2001, 10:28 AM   #10
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i keep a towel with me

do not panic

The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy has a few things to say on
the subject of towels.

A towel, it says, is about the most massively useful thing an
interstellar hitch hiker can have. Partly it has great practical
value - you can wrap it around you for warmth as you bound across
the cold moons of Jaglan Beta; you can lie on it on the brilliant
marble-sanded beaches of Santraginus V, inhaling the heady sea
vapours; you can sleep under it beneath the stars which shine so
redly on the desert world of Kakrafoon; use it to sail a mini
raft down the slow heavy river Moth; wet it for use in hand-to-
hand-combat; wrap it round your head to ward off noxious fumes or
to avoid the gaze of the Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal (a
mindboggingly stupid animal, it assumes that if you can't see it,
it can't see you - daft as a bush, but very ravenous); you can
wave your towel in emergencies as a distress signal, and of
course dry yourself off with it if it still seems to be clean
enough.

More importantly, a towel has immense psychological value. For
some reason, if a strag (strag: non-hitch hiker) discovers that a
hitch hiker has his towel with him, he will automatically assume
that he is also in possession of a toothbrush, face flannel,
soap, tin of biscuits, flask, compass, map, ball of string, gnat
spray, wet weather gear, space suit etc., etc. Furthermore, the
strag will then happily lend the hitch hiker any of these or a
dozen other items that the hitch hiker might accidentally have
"lost". What the strag will think is that any man who can hitch
the length and breadth of the galaxy, rough it, slum it, struggle
against terrible odds, win through, and still knows where his
towel is is clearly a man to be reckoned with.
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Old October 1, 2001, 01:27 PM   #11
Seeker
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Well, I do carry a large bath towel in my car and find it quite handy.

Aside from a towel and the old strength in numbers argument ('it probably won't happen to you'), are ther asny other feasible ways to protect against Bio\Chems?

My home is rural (South East of Salem OR about 35 miles, as the crow flies, in the foothills of the Cascades) but work will be in a population center. How much or far will Bios/Chems disperse and still be dangerous?
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Old October 1, 2001, 01:51 PM   #12
dZ
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heresw a good bio hazard web site
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl.../synopsis.html
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Old October 1, 2001, 03:46 PM   #13
Jeff White
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Where did you hear this?

The government is as woefully unprepared for chemical/biological warfare as the civilian population. A large part of the reserve components are still issued the previous generation of protective mask (M17A2). Many of the chemical protective overgarments in contingency stocks for the entire military are suspect (large fines and even jail sentences were levied to the contractors responsible not too long ago). Other chemical defense equipment
such as M8 chemical agent alarms is also in short supply, many Guard and reserve units share the few pieces of eqipment for training purposes. The anthrax vaccine is a scandal in itself. The one company that produces it has had serious problems and the military recently slowed the vaccination program because of the short supply. Plus it has such bad side effects that many in the military opted to end their career, even facing court martial then to take it.

My police dept. has 5 old M17 masks with filters that are only good for riot control agents. We have no biosuits or other protective equipment.

The truth is that nobedy in this country is really prepared for a chemical/biological attack.

Jeff
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Old October 1, 2001, 06:13 PM   #14
glockguy45
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I haven't been here in a long long time, if you dont remember I'm military, so that might explain a few things

dont know if you can promote business, if you cant I apologize in advance moderators and anyone else that might take offence.
my dad sells all the goodies you might want to buy so consider yourself warned

www.readymaderesources.com

happy hunting

and as far as gubmint havin enough to go around, they made me turn my stuff in back around, oh, when the prez was getting swore in and it went right back out that day, hhhmmm, wondering if they were expecting something...
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Old October 3, 2001, 04:22 PM   #15
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From all the information the experts have been putting out in the news media, it appears that effectively dispensing and dispersing chemical and biologic agents that affects a large number of people is quite difficult. Takes a great deal of expertise to do this.

The kind of expertise needed is probably only found by some state entity dedicated to NBC development. Iraq would be an example.
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Old October 3, 2001, 05:14 PM   #16
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The production and packaging might be difficult. Distribution and delivery, considering the rather "perfect" team effort we've learned of since 911, would be less difficult (IMHO).

Consider the water supply systems of lakes, rivers, et al; miles and miles of shoreline.

Consider city high-rises and wind - or hot air and weather balloons or a balcony in the atria of a mall.

Consider pin-pricks in a crowded walkway or subway.

Patrols? Guards? Manpower intensive!!

Whether there'll be one concentrated incident with a million casualties or a thousand wide-spread incidents of ten thousand casualties - lot's of places to do one's thing, particularly if you're a BG expecting to join your targets.

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Old October 3, 2001, 06:27 PM   #17
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OK, so let's say there's going to be some kind of chemical or biological attack. Without going to extremes and buying a full NBC suit, what gear would anyone recommend as a prudent form of self-protection? An Israeli gas mask? An Air Force mask and hood?

When the Y2K hoopla was going on, I bought a 4" 1911 for carry, but that was mostly an excuse to buy another gun. Is getting a mask irrational?
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Old October 3, 2001, 06:56 PM   #18
Jeff White
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Without detection capability you'd never know when to put your mask on...

Dick,
Yes I think getting a gas mask would be a little much. How would you know when to put it on? By the time people around you started dying, it'd be too late. The best defense is to get out of high population areas.

I'm all for being as self sufficient as possible, but NBC defense is something that needs to be government function. Even if you could by M8 chemical agent alarms, FOX NBC vehicles etc. You wouldn't be able to put the sensors out and maintain them and give yourself enough warnng to don your MOPP gear. Biological agents can't be detected by these sensors, so you'd have to wait until people around you started getting sick.

I rather doubt that our fatherly government would even tell us of a biological attack for fear of starting a panic.

Regardless of what Tommie Thompson told congress today, we are NOT prepared for a chemical or biological attack!! We have no civil defense to speak of in this country. Here in the Peoples Republic of Illinois they wouldn't even do the monthly tornado siren test yesterday for fear of startling the sheeple into a stampede.

Don't believe the BS about chemical weapons being hard to produe either. Sure good nerve agents are tricky and require a certain technical sophistication, but basic chemical weapons (like those used in WWI) can be produced in any country with a basic chemical industry.

An attack by chemical agents produced here wouldn't be hard either...just derailing the right train in a metropolitan area could cause mass casualties.

Jeff
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Old October 3, 2001, 09:48 PM   #19
Brett Bellmore
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Getting around during an attack requires special gear. They really recommend that you hole up for the duration. Some plastic sheeting and duct tape can turn a small room into a chemical and biological warfare shelter. Add some trail mix, a jug of water, zip lock bags and wet ones for sanitation, and a small vacuum cleaner with a hepa filter to provide safe fresh air, and you can last for an amazingly long time surrounded by deadly conditions.

Also, there's a prescription antibiotic, ciprofloxacin, which is highly effective against a number of biological warfare agents, as long as you start on it before the symptoms set in. You might ask your doctor to prescribe a couple weeks supply of it for you to stick in your closet.

Here's a remarkably constructive article for a liberal site: http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/20...ons/index.html
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Old October 3, 2001, 10:24 PM   #20
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Thanks.

What's a "hepa" filter?
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Old October 3, 2001, 11:00 PM   #21
Dangus
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A clean ROOM is of course a better idea than a suit....

I must argue that the protective gear will never help you argument is idiocy. In Israel, whenever there is any sort of bombing or attack from something like scuds or artillery, many people automatically start donning bio/chem gear, just in case. Israelis know what they are doing.
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Old October 4, 2001, 04:42 AM   #22
Brett Bellmore
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Ironbar: High Efficency Particulate Somethingorother.

You know, those vacuums that advertise they take care of mould spores and pollen? They also take care of Anthrax spores and Sarin. 'cept you gotta be real careful afterwards when you change the filter!
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Old October 4, 2001, 09:00 AM   #23
Coronach
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Quote:
I must argue that the protective gear will never help you argument is idiocy.
I don't think anyone (here, at least- the media is another story) is saying that NBC gear can *never* help you. I think the point is that its not nearly as useful as one might think, and having it in a position to be of use is probably more of a hassle than *most* people are willing to endure.

Quote:
In Israel, whenever there is any sort of bombing or attack from something like scuds or artillery, many people automatically start donning bio/chem gear, just in case.
Good point. If a scud hits near you, or you are near the point of an arty strike, don your mask.

However, its more likely that you would be exposed to a bio agent without even being aware of its presence (thats kinda the whole point, actually). As far as chem agents go, yeah, you'll see the cloud...but what is it? And will you have time to suit up? Which filter do you use? All of these are important questions.

I agree having it is better than not having it.

Quote:
Israelis know what they are doing.
No disagreement there.
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The axe bites into the door, ripping a hole in one panel. The maniac puts his face into the hole, cackling gleefully, "Here's Johnny...erk."
"And here's Smith and Wesson," murmurs Coronach, Mozambiquing six rounds of .357 into the critter at a range of three feet. -Lawdog

"True pacifism is the finest form of manliness. But if a man comes up to you and cuts your hand off, you don't just offer him the other one. Not if you want to go on playing the piano, you don't." -Sam Peckinpah

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein
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Old October 4, 2001, 11:16 AM   #24
Jeff White
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What kind of life style changes are you willing to make?

Dangus,
Just because the Israelis don protective masks when an explosion goes off doesn't mean that they are any safer. Maybe they feel that they are, but then again they have never been attacked with a chemical agent. No modern society has, not on any scale since WWI. NBC equipment requires maintenance just like anything else. How many people over there store and maintain their masks properly? We don't know, 'cause they've never been attacked. Protective masks must be carried and stored properly, otherwise they will lose their shape and not seal correctly.

Here are the options you have to defend yourself, based on posts to this thread:

1. You can secure your own chemical protective overgarments and mask. This is relatively easy, although expensive now. Your choices are a butyl rubber suit (very hot, but you can wear it forever without worrying about it losing it's effectiveness) or a military charcoal lined suit (buy several, because they lose their effectiveness once they are out of their sealed packages). You then need a mask and extra filters. If you get an older M17 type mask, you have to have two of them, because you can't change the filters without taking one off. Now that you have this stuff put it on. Adjust the mask so that it fits and practice donning it. 9 seconds is the standard...another 6 seconds to secure the hood. Tomorrow morning, instead of your normal attire go to MOPP (Mission Oriented Protective Posture, runs from zero to four and is set by the commander based on the threat and likelyhood of a chemical attack, most operations where there is ANY chance of NBC attack are conducted in MOPP level II) level II. This consists of your chemical protective overgarment and boots. Strap your mask carrier in either the hip or underarm carry and leave the house and go about your daily routine. At the end of the day, instead of undressing for bed, increase your MOPP level to IV. Put your mask and hood and gloves on. Now lay down to sleep. Of course you have to divide the night into shifts, so that your spouse or room mate is awake to watch you to make certain you don't roll over and break the seal on your mask while you're sleeping. Then it's their turn to sleep and your turn to watch. Get up the next morning and repeat the procedure. Don't forget to mask everytime you hear a loud noise. Remember a chemical shell may not make as big a bang as an HE shell, so you'll have to balance looking very stupid to those around you if a car backfires, with the knowledge that you are safe, in case it wasn't a backfire. Be prepared to live this way for the duration. It's the only way to be safe with the chemical protective equipment you can buy.

Or you can construct a sealed room as described above and not leave it for the duration. Since you still will need to leave the room from time to time you should build a rudimentary decontamination facility and use it before you re-enter your sealed room. Hoses, water, supertropical bleach and unless you have a butyl rubber MOPP suit a new charcoal suit for everytime you leave the room will all be necessary. Don't forget to construct a special sewer system to dispose of the waste from decontamination and think up a way to dispose of your used MOPP suits and mask filters.

My friends this is how you will have to live to protect yourself 24-7 from a chemical attack. These measures are pretty much useless against a biological agent. This is why NBC defense should be a government function. It truly is one of those things we can't effectively do for ourselves. I'm not convinced that the government could effectively do it on a large scale either. They could train firefighters and emergency management personnel in decontamination procedures. They could develop and field better alarms and monitors for early warning. They could build shelters in the cities and have plans to move the population into them. We used to have civil defense efforts like this in the '50s and early '60s but we have none in place now. The best defense is to move away from a potential target. Either that or live like I described above.

Jeff
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Old October 4, 2001, 12:51 PM   #25
moa
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Offense is usually the best defense. Might be easier and cheaper to exterminate the swine who can and will use those agents, and not worry about it so much.
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