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Old September 13, 2001, 06:18 AM   #51
Dennis
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Well, I tremble to interject anything among all these experts, but two comments come to mind:

1) The only place I can find anything about an eye for an eye in the Holy Bible is a reference made by Christ during the Sermon on the Mount. He advised against it. (Rather than quote the Bible on TFL, your attention is invited to Matthew 5:38.)

2) I have not read my own Bible as much as folks say I should. I'm typically cursed as a heathen when the subject comes up so I obviously can not be ANY kind of authority in others' religions. However, people who profess to be well-versed (no pun intended) in other religious references say virtually every religion advocates, in one verbiage or another, what we call the Golden Rule.

The Golden Rule. Hmmm. You know, it would be rather hypocritical of us to expect others to respect OUR views if we denigrate everything they say they believe in.

Oh, and as for being perfect, there's the rather discomforting concept (John 8:7) that only the person without sin should cast the first stone.....

Let's be a bit gentle with each other, folks.
-----------------

Edit 9/13/01, 0115PM: When I wrote this, I heard a faint "This will not stand." How true, how true.

Further comments at referenced post.

Last edited by Dennis; September 13, 2001 at 12:18 PM.
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Old September 13, 2001, 08:06 AM   #52
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Taliban should be a glass field plain and simple. Their leaders support and protect Bin Laden.



Quote:
His relation with Taliban would best be understood if Taliban themselves are understood properly. First of all Taliban are not simply another Afghan faction supported by Pakistan. Taliban are sincere to their beliefs, a religiously committed group unspoiled by political tactics. They would never bargain with what they see as matters of principle. Bin Laden for them is a saint. He is a symbol of sacrifice for the sake of jihad. They see him as very rich Arab from the Holy Land who gave up his wealth and luxury to fight for the sake of his brother Muslims in Afghanistan. They see themselves performing a double duty here, an Islamic duty of protecting this distinguished person and a tribal duty of protecting a descent refugee. The latter is a big value in Afghanistan. Once, a Taliban leader said to a Saudi envoy that if a goat would seek refuge to my tent I would never hand it over, how on earth do you want us to hand over a holy man like bin Laden?
emphasise mine

If you only wipe out Bin Laden, his followers will retaliate. There are no innocents in these countries that support him!

That said........Don't hate the people that moved here from the middle east to find a better life. We all came from somewhere else.
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Old September 13, 2001, 08:36 AM   #53
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LawDog:

I assure you, I witnessed two stonings while I was in the UAE, as well as the roving thugs riding around in the back of pickup trucks with clubs beating anyone they found (except westerners obviously, we just got the icy stare) outside at prayer during Ramadan. The acts of torture against women in the middle east is pretty well documented, I'll not get into it here.

My point is, that fanaticism is the culprit here. While YOUR copy of the Quaran reads differently than mine, I'd be willing to bet that mine is the one that is being used along with "interpretation" by the current extreamists to justify their jihad against the west.

There are no good religous fanatics, be they Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, etc...
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Old September 13, 2001, 08:43 AM   #54
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The use of hijacked airliners as kamikaze weapons to kill what looks to be tens of thousands of people IMHO constitutes use of a weapon of mass destruction.

All terrorist states that knowingly, emphasis, knowingly harbor terrorists and their organizations have committed an act of war against the USA with a weapon of mass destruction. We know who these terrorist states are - Afghanistan is not alone in this category.

Calls for "measured retaliation" against only specific organizations and insistence that we're "better" than to inflict any casualties on enemy civilians would be akin to Roosevelt insisting our troops in WWII use care to only shoot or bomb uniformed Nazis or Samurai. Even if we could hit - accurately - every single one of the few hundred terrorists directly involved in this particular attack, we will NOT discourage future attacks; the dead will be considered heroic martyrs by a very LARGE portion of the populations of these terrorist nations, and we'll be seen as an impotent paper tiger. Face it: we're facing a determined, implacable enemy. Other terrorist leaders will pop up and rise to prominence. Talk, negotiation, pinprick cruise missle strikes, posturing, - we've been doing these for years, with the end result that was brought home on September 11.

Once before we faced a determined enemy willing to indulge in suicide attacks, an enemy which trained it's young to indulge in suicide attacks, an enemy to whom suicide attacks were a way to honor their God - hence my deliberate use of the term kamikaze at the beginning of my post.

We need to remember what it took to win that war.
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Old September 13, 2001, 08:51 AM   #55
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Did the women and children in Germany and Japan make war on us?

No, of course not. But they were targets. No one worried over them. In fact it was hoped that the massive civilian casualties would help break their national will.

Now I'm not advocating that we level Kabul, Bagdad or any other Middle Eastern city. But we need to recognize that we are engaged in a war for the very existance of our way of life. It makes no difference what God they believe in. They have made war on us and we should respond in kind. While I appreciate all the discussion on Islam, it's immaterial. These people have attacked us in order to achieve political and economic goals. If anyone here on TFL actually believes that Usma Bin Laden can operate worldwide without at least the tacit approval of several governments, I'd like to talk to them about a deal on a surplus bridge I have.

We need to open our eyes and recognize some basic facts here. Our economy and very way of life runs on Mideast oil. We have vital interests in the area. For years we have tried to stay out of their internal conflicts. Oh we've done things behind the scenes, but we've always told ourselves that we weren't interfereing. So now we are paying the price for that inattention. I see this as more of a civil war among the Islamic people over there. On one side there are the moderates who like the money that the West pours into their economies and on the other side there are the extremists who would like everyone to live as they did in the third century. We have backed the moderates, even to the point of leaving Saddam in power to act as a physical buffer between the extremist states in the East and the more moderate states in the West. The extremist states would like to see us out of the region and not propping up the moderate states so that they can spread their revolution throughout the region. This is one thing that the West cannot allow. Too much is at stake.

We must go in to the Middle East now and soundly defeat these extremists. This is going to involve not only finding and wiping out the terrorist cells that are responsible for Tuesday's actions, but defeating the nations that harbor and aid them. We must totally defeat them..to the same extent we defeated Germany and Japan. Then we must rebuild them and their economies into states based on individual rights and economic freedom. While we are doing this, we will have to defend our own soil. Bin Laden has no army or air force. He has plenty of operatives like he used on Tuesday. I'm sure they will not hesitate to carry the war to us in an attempt to break our resolve and get us out of the area. This is going to require a total mobilization. Just as in WWII our lives are going to change for a long time. Maybe things will never be the same.

I am convinced that anything less will only result in more of what we received Tuesday. If we just go in and destroy the terrorists we are just creating martyrs and we will have to fight their children and grandchildren. We must eliminate the conditions that allow this to happen.

Lets not kid ourselves it's about the oil our economy runs on. If this was anyplace else in the world we wouldn't be involved.

Lawdog, Gary, would you have issued arrest warrants for Hitler and Hirohito? This is war plain and simple and we should prosecute it as such.

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Old September 13, 2001, 09:08 AM   #56
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Quote:
I've got a quote from Sheikh Zayed which is particularly appropriate
And particularly atypical of Muslims. It's pretty unreasonable to suggest that such thinking is characteristic of those who are running the Muslim world today. You might as well suggest that a love of liberty is characteristic of communists. Yes, you can find some that talk that way, but they are the 'flyers' in the group.




TFL'r Alex Szabo posted a good summation of the issues before America on

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...5&pagenumber=2

The price of panseyhood, indeed.
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Old September 13, 2001, 09:58 AM   #57
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Do you people believe you will go to heaven espousing these views? Kill them all before they kill us.

There are some 817 million people of Islam in the world. Do you think they all should be killed. Do you even think that is possible.

Do you think an entire nation, race, religious creed ought to be condemned because of the actions of some? If so then you better start asking what religion McVeigh was, or how about white supremesists.

I'm all for an appropriate response to this threat. Hunt down the terrorists and eliminate them. If need be destroy the military, and air defenses of countries harboring them so safer military action is possible. Do to them what they have done to us, hamper their military and economy. I'm sure the US military and allies are much more capable of doing it then the terrorists and countries harboring them.

Sure there will be collateral damage, and innocent lives lost, that's to be expected. But to purposly target civilians, that just makes us terrorists. This may be war, but it isn't war as we've known it in the past.

We also must get used to the fact that once we engage in this war, we all become targets to the enemy. Get used to the fact that more attacks will occur on US soil and around the world.
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Old September 13, 2001, 10:00 AM   #58
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wise words Kam

thank you
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Old September 13, 2001, 10:26 AM   #59
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It's all a matter of how you look at it. I look at those nations that harbor the terrorists as terrorists. They will not get my sympathy!
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Old September 13, 2001, 11:00 AM   #60
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I AM SICK JUST SICK AND YES I AM INTENTIONALY TYPING THIS IN CAPS BECAUSE THAT IS EXACTLY HOW MAD I AM AT THE MOMENT. AND THIS ISN'T BECAUSE OF THE WTC OR THE PNTG. IT IS BECAUSE OF SOME OF THE THINGS SAID ON THIS THREAD.

Lawdog: Your damn idea of getting those "directly" responsible for this act is exactly the kind of pussyfooting around the problem that got us into this stinking mess in the first place. What is it with America today. Call me a warmonger or anything else you like but at what point do you start thinking realistically about what the solution to this problem is. As long as there are radical religeous govenments in power there will always be terrorist cells in existance. PERIOD. WAKE UP As I posted in another thread stick your head in the sand if you want. I choose not to. Now before you start flamming me about well when I was in the ME this and that well I have been there too. Didn't spend 15 years there but I have worked with the Israelis and the Egytians and a couple of other Arabic/Islamic states and you know I never felt real comfortable when dealing with the Arabs. Always had that feeling that someone was watching me sort of feeling. It wasn't until after I was done with that deployment that I started researching the ME. It kind of was like a lite bulb experience that I realized why I had that feeling. Go back and reread CaptainHoek's post at 7:53 and Bam Bam's at 9:41. That has been my experience as well.

Now: another thread on this board got closed down because the moderators didn't like hearing people advocating the use of TNW well just because you don't like what people are saying doesn't mean you should shut the thread down. I didn't think anybody was getting too personal. The other thing is that, that somebody also made a comment about sending in the SEALs, Delta etc etc well let me tell you something, I have heard about all of that kind of BS talk that I can stand. Let me tell you something, there was a SEAL somewhere who just went home for the first time in a couple of years on Tuesday morning who on Tuesday afternoon said to himself sh** why now, and then there was another retired one across the country who after reading your analagy of the "war on drugs" would have been ****** as hell because he has been in the position of trying to fight a war three tours in country none the less where the political leaders expected him to fight with one hand tied behind his back, and then there are others who have left the teams and still have friends in teams on both coast who left because of this misconception of limited response you advocate and who are hopping and praying that the people who died in the WTC and the PNTG didn't die in vain. My point to this rant? These guys no matter how much you think of them as gods these are men just like you with families, moms, dads, wives, and children who love them and worry about them the idea of sending these guys into a situation where some of them might not and most likely will not come out of unscathed to accomplish some limited response makes some people sick. From now on think about what you say please.

Rant mode off for a little while.
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Old September 13, 2001, 11:01 AM   #61
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So we should attack California next and exterminate everyone who lives there, since they obviously do not share our beliefs in the 2nd Amendment.

Where does it stop?

This is a war between GOOD and EVIL. We must route out evil where it hides and destroy it. We must do this, but not to the extent that we loose our goodness.

Condemning entire nations, all of Islam, because of the actions of the minority. That just makes me sick, and fighting made.

What does this say about our beliefs? That we will so quickly turn to savagery to protect ourselves.

I hope that most of this rhetoric is just heat of the moment.

To those that would do us harm, cry havoc and let loose the dogs of war. But all of Islam is not to blame for this, and all of Afghanistan is not to blame for this. Take action against those who are responsible, pray that not to many innocent lives will be lost, and hope that after this is over, we can all live in peace.
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Old September 13, 2001, 11:28 AM   #62
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KAM said:
Quote:
Condemning entire nations, all of Islam, because of the actions of the minority. That just makes me sick, and fighting made.
I understand what you're saying, that if a arab does something don't condemn the whole nation.

But you're dead wrong on THIS one. Afghanistan has helped hide Bin Laden after several terrorists attacks on Americans. Therefore, they ARE responsible for the 20,000+ deaths on Tuesday. They are not innocent bystanders.
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Old September 13, 2001, 11:37 AM   #63
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can you say that about every single friggin' Afghani?

Do they all deserve to die?


Do you realize how much other countries hate us? Due to exploitation by international business and the "world police" mentality, we have created so many enemies in other nations.

Does that justify their attacks on us?

you can't have it both ways.


Kill those who are responsible. Leave the innocent villagers out of it.


If you kill them, the terrorists have won. They want to create terror and it looks like some of you have submitted to the fear.
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Old September 13, 2001, 12:06 PM   #64
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Quote:
If you kill them, the terrorists have won.
Fine....I'll let them win this one!

If innocent civilians die this will sadden me. But there are casualties of war. This is an act of war.
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Old September 13, 2001, 12:15 PM   #65
Dennis
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With just cause I wrote, "Well, I tremble to interject anything among all these experts..."

Thank you for those who contacted me by e-mail rather than prove me an idiot in public. However, I seem to have done a rather good job of it myself.

Better researchers than I have found references to "an eye for an eye..." in Exodus 21, Leviticu 24, Deuteronomy 19 and elsewhere in Matthew 5.

The good news is that in most cases, the eye for an eye concept was meant to limit punishment to something less than death.

(For example: If you put out the eye of my son, I could demand your son lose an eye.)

However, there are many references to taking a life because a life was taken; and many references can be used to support and to refute the death penalty.

No wonder the devout argue about religion even among themselves.

No wonder I've made it a policy NOT to discuss religion on TFL. It's simply to distracting (at best) and divisive (at worst) to our RKBA movement.

I hereby make two apologies: 1) for discussing religion and 2) for deviating from the matters at hand.

( Dennis slaps his own head for the vear.... )

(( Thanks, Tulsa. ))
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Old September 13, 2001, 12:38 PM   #66
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http://www.dallasnews.com/attack_on_...enton_13e.html

http://www.dallasnews.com/attack_on_...ms_13rel..html

Some of y'all, no doubt, will be dancing in the streets over these.

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Old September 13, 2001, 01:22 PM   #67
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Wherein Who Did What to Who is discussed

Afghanistan did nothing to anyone. Afghanistan is a place, or, if you will, a nation of people.

It is a the government of Afghanistan and its officers and agents whose actions must be paid for.
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Old September 13, 2001, 01:27 PM   #68
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No dancing here, Lawdog. The Muslims in this country aren't at fault (with the exception of a few handfull of terrorists in our midsts). Their religion isn't at fault. The fault is with the terrorist groups that planned this and other attacks, and those who aided them.

It's a shame that this discussion has devolved into condemnations of religions, when the real discussion should be over what should constitute an appropriate level of retaliation.
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Old September 13, 2001, 01:31 PM   #69
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thank you

Ledbetter and monkeyleg
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Old September 13, 2001, 01:40 PM   #70
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Firebombing Cities, killing tens or hundreds of thousands of innocents (even children).

Using nuclear weapons against other cities killing hundreds of thousands of innocents (women, children & elderly people).


I don't relish war. I don't want war. I wasn't given much of a choice though. There is a time for peace, and now is not the time.

From this moment on, until the deaths of the thousands of fathers, mothers and children killed on Tuesday are avenged, I will be at war with those who reside within the borders of any nation that gives aid and comfort to my enemy. I encourage my countrymen to do the same. I encourage you to join the armed services, or to give blood regularly for those of us who may be sent to places where there will be doubtless millions of gallons of blood spilled. It is reality. One that we are partly responsible for through our inept foriegn policy, but one that we find ourselves in regardless.

If you cannot stomach the bloodshed that we are all about to take part in (either directly or indirectly as citizens of a nation at war), then I suggest you carefully monitor what your schools are teaching your kids. I suggest you give more than a damn about who gets elected, and I suggest that you may want to keep track of our own government more.

There is a reason these people did this. There is also only one reason they will stop. We must punish this act on a wholesale biblical proportion. We must look to past examples of what has worked against rougue nations, and we must emulate those acts. What Rome did to Carthage comes to mind here (salted the fields, wiping out the entire civilization of Carthaginians). We must decide that our *****-footing around with pinpoint strikes at night janitors in asperine factories has only made us the laughing stock of the middle east. They must laugh no more. They should (those countries determined to be my and my country's enemies), should look on Tuesday as the darkest day in the history of mankind since humans took to bipedal motion. Our task is to take them back to that evolutionary stage of formation, and insure that those left alive in the ______ country are left with sticks, stones, and maybe even fire with which to rebuild their lives.

This is NOT a war against Arabs. This is not a war against Moslems. I love and respect both. This is a war against those who have stepped outside the bounds of civilized society and have opted to act in a barbarous manner. It may turn out that they are moslems. So be it. My war isn't against the guy who works at the stop and go to feed and educate his kids. It isn't the guy in the street who came here to escape the fanatics in the _____countries in the first place. I welcome them.

I want only blood of my tormenters. I feel that if the Government doesn't hurry up and declare that a state of war exists, and commence executing such war, then the people themselves might just declare it themselves. War might destroy these folks, but war is their friends compared to what we might do if war isn't declared.
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Old September 13, 2001, 01:44 PM   #71
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Americans... All race, creed and color, deserve protection. This Bravo Sierra about a$$holes running about defacing mosques is not acceptable. The lowlifes that did that (and worse in some areas) need to be behind bars.

I work at a major Airframer. To say I work in a multi-cultural work environment is a gross understatement. If someone hazards my friends of foreign blood, you'll have me to answer to as well as them. That's America. That's the way it should be.

Striking a nation that supports attacks on our country is a totally different ballgame. They are not our countrymen. They are our ENEMIES. No quarter has been offered, none should be given. I don't care what color or religion they are. And yes... "Civilians" will get hurt. That's the rub about war. It's messy. There is no way to fight the fight without it getting grim. We didn't start it, but we DAMN WELL better finish it. This is no time for a Clinton-esque "Measured Response".

Call me a barbaric warmonger… My hope is that in twenty years, our response will make all who wish us ill, shiver with awesome fear and dreadful memory.
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Old September 13, 2001, 01:47 PM   #72
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Oh, and one more thought:

Those despicable people who are throwing molotov coctails at U.S. Mosques, and beating Arabs in the streets should be tried as terrorists themselves and dealt with appropriately.

I have a friend who is Indian and has even suffered due to the anti-Arab hatred, and if some of these morons bothered to watch the news, they would know that India has become a nuclear power precisely to protect themselves against extremist Islamic regimes.

Shame on those of you who will [b]eat your own countrymen because you are too cowardly to fight the real war.

"B" added for clarification by 4V50 Gary.
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Old September 13, 2001, 01:50 PM   #73
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You [b]eat people?

No, he doesn't eat people. But you knew that, didn't you?

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Old September 13, 2001, 02:01 PM   #74
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I will protect my innocent fellow Americans whenever possible, in every way possible, for as long as possible- until the threat goes away, or my "lights go out".

The exception I will make is for those who openly cheer the deaths of my countrymen. Those cheers may be protected by the Constitution of our great land, but I will not offer those individuals my personal protection.

For my other friends of Arabic descent- or, heaven forbid, who happen to be guilty of having darker skin- you'll have to go through me to get them.
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Old September 13, 2001, 02:16 PM   #75
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When did this discussion turn into hating american citizens??? I don't recall anyone saying we should attack someone because of their nationality. People said NATIONS that harbor these terroists should be attacked.

Lawdog,
Why do you think some people posting on this thread will be "dancing in the street". I don't think anyone said that law-abiding american citizens should be attacked.
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