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Old September 12, 2001, 08:46 PM   #26
LawDog
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All right, I can see this discussion needs to wait for clearer days. So, I'll leave one last post on the 'war' idea. It's going to be a prediction for the pundits to ponder.

My prediction:

In the areas of
  • police militarization
  • civil liberties destruction, and
  • un-win-ability

The 'War Against Terrorism' is going to make the 'War on Drugs' into a Fond Memory of The Good Old Days.

My last post on the 'war' thing until things calm down.

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Old September 12, 2001, 08:51 PM   #27
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I generally agree with Lawdog, but I think that we DO know who the enemy is. It is an enemy that we share with Israel and the rest of the first world- THE RADICAL MUSLIM. He is also the enemy of the Islam. We did not choose this enemy, he chose us. He has attacked us all over the world, and will not be satisfied until the west, and Israel, are destroyed. He will never stop, so don't even think that.

ANY and EVERY country that harbours this enemy should know that we, like Israel, will not hesitate to strike it, militarily, politically or financially. The citizens/subjects of that county should be aware that it is extremely dangerous to have these people hiding in their midst.

Unfortunately, these terrorists know that we Americans are moral and just, like Lawdog. We are reluctant to kill innocents, so that is where they will hide. This is Vietnam on a global scale.

Their attacks will never stop - and neither should ours. Whether it is a training camp in the desert of northern Africa, a mountainside in Afghanistan, or a street corner in Nirobi, our retaliation should be, devastating and relentless. The price for attacking us should be unbearable.
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Old September 12, 2001, 09:18 PM   #28
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That's Why We Must Win

Lawdog,
If we fight the war against terrorism the way we fight the war on drugs you're most likely right.

I've given this a lot of thought and I think we must not only defeat the terrorists in the field, but do something about the conditions that allow them to exist and prosper. This will entail a complete WWII type victory in the Middle East. Unconditional surrender and then rebuild their destroyed nations like we did Germany and Japan. This will require joint action by the West.

If we don't solve the underlying problem, we'll just have to deal with the next Bin Laden and a generation that REALLY has reason to hate us. I don't think anything less then total victory should be acceptable. If we don't do this right we can kiss the life we knew before yesterday goodbye forever.

Make no mistake about it, it won't be easy and I fear we haven't seen the last act of terror on our soil. But the oil in the Mideast fuels our economy, so we're not going to pull out. And we can't let the likes of Bin Laden control it so we have to solve it now. And it's a problem for the entire Western world. No more band-aids. Total mobilization, total war to unconditional surrender, then rebuild. If we don't, they will get weapons of mass destruction (if they don't have them already) and they will use them to set up their theocracies around the world.

I don't like it that it's come to this but I don't see another alternative for our way of life. This isn't jingoism cause I will undoubtedly be deployed.

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Old September 12, 2001, 09:24 PM   #29
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for the capitalist position

For the Laissez-faire capitalist position, please see the following articles:

http://www.capitalismmagazine.com/20...s_real_war.htm

and

http://www.aynrand.org/medialink/blacktuesday.shtml
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Old September 12, 2001, 09:41 PM   #30
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Lawdog, please excuse me for pointing out the difference between the real and ideal. But it must be done. Your quotation from the koran is selective. Moslems say one thing but do another. It is this well-practiced self-deception and lying to outsiders that allow them to continually victimise non-moslems while thinking of themselves as God's Chosen holy people.

Previously on this board I have spoken out, rather mildly, about the islamic menace. Let me be more explicit about my personal history, diagnosis, and prognosis, of the situation.

About a decade ago I became interested in mysticism. After much reading and thinking I focused on Sufism, islamic mysticism. To pursue this interest I moved to New York City and attended a mosque and tariqa (Dervish meeting place). I took Shahada at the Medina Masjid at First Avenue and 11th Street in Manhattan and went to the Thursday night meetings of the Al-Helveti Al-Jarahi (sp) Order of Dervishes at Masjid-al-Farah on West Broadway. Not that far from the WTC... During this time I met many fine brothers. However, during my time as an orthodox moslem who bowed and prayed towards Mecca 5 times a day, I also learned of the INSTITUTIONALIZED HATRED that moslems have towards the KUFR. Moslems believe that they have an Allah-given RIGHT and DUTY to lord-it-over and victimise the KUFR non-believers. That means killing Hindus mushriks), enslaving Jews (Yahoodi) and Christians (Nazrini), raping kufr women and kidnapping children; and feeling that they are earning Allah's blessings by doing so. None of these accusations are false. Real life modern day examples can be found in Pakistan, Sudan, Kashmir, and Indonesia. Check it out at www.hraic.org.au
I personally prayed with persons who believed that they had the right to exploit the kufr. When I realized what was happening I quit going to the masjids and renounced islam.

Moslems hate America and Americans because we have escaped their domination and prospered. They hate America because we drink beer, listen to rock and roll, and let our women run loose in the streets. They hate America because our laws are founded on the just-consent-of-the-governed and not on the Sharia as administered by the ulemma. They hate America because it is run by the Jews. They hate America because we worship Jesus as the Son of God and reject mohammed. They hate America because we are free, proud, affluent, progressive, and the strongest nation ever to grace the face of the Earth. Many Americans take this as proof that our nation is blessed by God and a blessing to His creation. Moslems take it as proof that Allah set us up to do all the work so they can take over and get the rewards.

At one time moslems were the scourge of Europe, India, Africa, and lived at the center of the Earth. They had achieved a position of relative dominance by attacking the unwary and assimilating their accomplishments. Now they are poor, overpopulated, backward, confused, and sustained only by the accident of having not yet been killed for their oil. Although islamic countries have the most under-educated populations on the Earth they accuse us, America, of living in jahiliya (ignorance or barbarism). And believe they have the right to take our lives and goods from us.

In summation, orthodox moslems dedicated to their deen and strong in their iman will never accept their inferior position nor will they ever undertake realistic reformation of the fiqh, sharia, and social organisation of their faith to improve their lot on this Earth. They will become retrenched in their bad habits and exorcise their frustation by attacking the outsiders, US. The so-called moderate moslems are actually human beings who have correctly arrived at a certain amount of scepticism about their faith and who consequently refuse to live it to the limit. God bless them for their reasonableness.

There will never be peaceful co-existence between moslems and West, including America, because the moslem religion itself does not allow peace with the Kufr. Peace will only be achieved by an imposed Pax Americana. Peace can be achieved only be domination. Russia, China, India, and the USA should carve up the islamic world into spheres of influence and eradicate the islamic "religion" through a process of suppression and education.
Hundredes of millions of human beings are being mislead and abused by the ulemma. They must be liberated!

The true perpatrators of this crime are not just the terrorists but also the men who are the emotional sparkplugs, the ulemma. As long as the ulemma are allowed to perpetuate their incendiary speech there will never be peace. The NATO nations should target psychotics such as Sheik Zawahiri, Omar Ab-dul Rahman, Shiek Yassin, the government of Iran, Sheik Omar Bakri Mohammed and many, many more, including OBL. However high the cost to the enemy that it takes to erase the INSTITUTIONALIZED HATRED and dismantle the Sharia it must be done to liberate those imprisoned in delusionary beliefs.

Finally, what I have said tonight, besides my status as an apostate (RIDA) would get me killed in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Banglidesh, and like countries. But belief in God impels me to speak the truth as I have lived it. God demands nothing less than a full commitment to seeking the truth and speaking from the heart.

That is more than enough, God Bless America!
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Old September 12, 2001, 09:41 PM   #31
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Lawdog, I doubt you are much more of an expert on Islam than I am. I was not trying to quote their scripture.

But I do believe that in the hearts of MILLIONS of muslims there is hatred of jews and christians.

If we are going to stop them, we need to do to the them what they have done to us, but ten times worse.

That means kill the terrorists. Plus their wives, mothers, children, friends, associates.

Thats what they did to us yesterday, and will undoubtedly do again.

I realize my statements are extreme. What they did was extreme.

I do not believe we have the luxury of civility.

Until the last one of these people is killed this will continue, whether you want to accept that fact or not.

I am not trying to war-monger here. I would meet them though as cruelly as they would meet us.
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Old September 12, 2001, 09:53 PM   #32
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Quote:
Lawdog, I doubt you are much more of an expert on Islam than I am. I was not trying to quote their scripture.
Expert? No. I did, though, spend 16 years living, eating, debating, loving and learning as a Christian among the Moslems in Libya, Abu Dhabi, Iran and Saudi Arabia, which (I hope) tends to give me a wee bit of an insight into Islam.

Bam Bam, your training among the Sufi in New York leaves me in awe.

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Old September 12, 2001, 09:59 PM   #33
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LawDog:

The only insight I need is the fact that 10,000 or so innocent jews, christians, atheists, bhuddists, mormons, muslims, etc died yesterday.

I am glad you had a good experience with muslims, but I am not sure how many of the family and friends of those who died yesterday could say the same.
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Old September 12, 2001, 10:12 PM   #34
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Quote:
The only insight I need is the fact that 10,000 or so innocent jews, christians, atheists, bhuddists, mormons, muslims, etc died yesterday.
So, you paint an entire religion -- millions of people -- over the actions of a handful of people.

A few Moslems are mass murderers, so you condemn the entire religion as 'hatred'.

*sigh*

Just out of morbid curiosity, do you do this same thing -- basing your opinions of large groups on the actions of a few of the members -- with other groups?

To the point: would you condemn all gun owners because a small number of gun owners have massacred people in the past?

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Old September 12, 2001, 10:20 PM   #35
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Law Dog, I guess its time to just drop this, we obviously disagree, and I dont think either of us will budge.

If you think a "handful" of people are all that is involved, I think you are badly mistaken.

As for the gun owner comment, I dont understand how you would compare gun ownership with a fanatical group of people in any meaningful way.

My comments certainly havent been politically correct, but then neither am I.
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Old September 12, 2001, 10:34 PM   #36
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I hear your anger and agree. I too am angered at what happened. Just remember, its the military that will deliver the vengence that is being felt through all of you at this time. Please dont take it upon yourself to promote pain to those who do not deserve it. We will take care of it.

I ask you to stand by us when the time comes to bring these cowards to their knees. It makes our job easier knowing that all Americans are behind us 100%. Trust me when I say, We all feel the pain that America is going through now and are more than ready and willing to deliver the hammer when the time comes.

Sleep well America cause the U.S. military is on the job 24-7!
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Old September 12, 2001, 10:49 PM   #37
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Quote:
He is also the enemy of the Islam.
He IS Islam.


The 'nice' Muslim who doesn't want infidel blood is as much Islam as the Unity Church is Christianity.

Check their history and their writings. It is a religion born, bred, and bathed in blood.

It's true that there are peasant Muslims who do not thirst for blood, but that is not the heart of Islam.

Lawdog, you quoted the Quran and got what it said 180 degrees backwards, so pardon me if your 16 years among them doesn't leave me with much confidence in your understanding of them.
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Old September 12, 2001, 10:50 PM   #38
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philosophical flaw

Guys, this is a fundamental philosophical problem. The muslim people have accepted the altruistic crap fed to them by their government (that the oil belongs to all the people) and their religion (that they live soley to serve their god). They have no concept of an individuals "right to life" and "right to property". These are the very concepts that form the basis of a capitalist society, and what America was based on. They are fundamentally opposed to our basic values. Values that can trace their roots to the rational, objective philosophy of Aristotle over 2000 years ago. It is no accident that the "dark ages" began with the rejection of rational thought and ended with the rediscovery of Aristotle and logic.
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Old September 12, 2001, 10:50 PM   #39
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Perhaps LawDog can explain the stonings (for religous reasons) and roving bands of thugs who beat down in the street those who did not go to pray during Ramadan in Abu Dhabi, Saudi, Bahrain and Dubai that I witnessed in between 1990 and 1993. Or the torture of females who do not meet their Islamic males expectations of "correctness". Great religon

since you are quoting the Quaran:

[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

[3.28] Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.

[3.169] And reckon not those who are killed in Allah's way as dead; nay, they are alive (and) are provided sustenance from their Lord;

[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

Last edited by Brian Busch; September 12, 2001 at 11:13 PM.
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Old September 12, 2001, 11:31 PM   #40
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looks like the cavalry got here just in time to keep this one going... I was taking arrows like crazy here.
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Old September 12, 2001, 11:36 PM   #41
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[2:191] You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them at the Sacred Masjid, unless they attack you therein. If they attack you, you may kill them. This is the just retribution for those disbelievers.

Mine reads a bit differently than your version.

[3:28] The believers never ally themselves with the disbelievers, instead of the believers. Whoever does this is exiled from GOD. Exempted are those who are forced to do this to avoid persecution. GOD alerts you that you shall reverence Him alone. To GOD is the ultimate destiny.

No violence here.

[3:169] Do not think that those who are killed in the cause of GOD are dead; they are alive at their Lord, enjoying His provisions.

Okay, sounds like the Christian version.

[4:89] They wish that you disbelieve as they have disbelieved, then you become equal. Do not consider them friends, unless they mobilize along with you in the cause of GOD. If they turn against you, you shall fight them, and you may kill them when you encounter them in war. You shall not accept them as friends, or allies.

You missed the next verse. You know, the one with the exemptions?

[4:90] Exempted are those who join people with whom you have signed a peace treaty, and those who come to you wishing not to fight you, nor fight their relatives. Had GOD willed, He could have permitted them to fight against you. Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them.

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Old September 12, 2001, 11:41 PM   #42
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Quote:
Check their history and their writings. It is a religion born, bred, and bathed in blood.
Umm.. kinda like the Old Testament. You know, God killing the firstborn in Egypt, then "here, take this land and kill the folks there, it's okay I said you could have it..." And lest we forget.. "hey, this guy says he's our Saviour.... let's nail him to a cross!"

Glass Houses folks.

Pardon the flippancy, but our Judeo-Christian heritage ain't too much purtier on paper.

Paraphrased:
"Those who worship God, by whatever name, are doing God's work. Those who do evil, even in God's name, are doing evil's work."

The a**wipes who did this are no more followers of Allah than Christian Identity are followers of Christ.

-K
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Old September 12, 2001, 11:49 PM   #43
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Funny you ignored the other stuff...you know, the stonings, beatings, torture, etc...

BTW, my translation is straight from the University of Michigan's Humanities Text Initiative; translated by M.H. Shakir and published by Tahrike Tarsile Qur'an, Inc., in 1983.

I don't believe I said I was posting peices that espouse violence specificaly. These are atypical verses from the Quaran, perhaps those in the East have my version, not yours...as that certainly seems to be the case, given recent events.
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Old September 12, 2001, 11:59 PM   #44
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Ignored them? All I can say is that I never saw anything like that -- not even during the height of the Iranian Crisis -- but we left the Mid East in the early 80's.

I would hate to think that things would have deteriorated so much during Sheikh Zayed's rule, especially in Abu Dhabi. And I have extreme difficulty believing that any member of the Zayed family would countenance torture in Abu Dhabi or Dubai.

Since you brought up the old UAE, I've got a quote from Sheikh Zayed which is particularly appropriate:
Quote:
In these times, we see around us violent men who claim to talk on behalf of Islam. Islam is far removed from their pronouncements. If such people really wish for recognition from Muslims and the world, they should themselves first heed the words of God and His Prophet. Regrettably, however, these people have nothing whatsoever that connects them to Islam. They are apostates and criminals. We see them slaughtering children and the innocent. They kill people, spill their blood and destroy their property, and then claim to be Muslims. We would like you to know Islam in its true meaning, a Muslim is he who does not inflict evil upon others. Islam is the religion of tolerance and forgiveness, of advice and not of war, of dialogue and understanding.
A Muslim should be familiar with the true teachings of Christianity, and a Christian with the true teachings of Islam. Sincere people from both sides should enter into dialogue, and should not leave the floor to the extremists who are there amongst both Christians and Muslims. A true dialogue between religions is the real deterrent and a strong defence against fundamentalism and extremism.
Interesting words from a man who's religion was born in, and calls for, blood, wouldn't you say?

My translation of the Qu'ran is the authorized English translation by Dr. Rashad Khalifa. The on-line version is here:
http://www.submission.org/Q-T.html

LawDog
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Old September 13, 2001, 12:03 AM   #45
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As LawDog said, the OT ain't too purty, sometimes.

I know it pretty well.

We don't really want to get into a debate about religion here, but any who want to PM me, I'll be happy to give you some examples of our supposedly "shared Judeo-Christian values" that I highly doubt you'll agree with.

(And if you do, I don't agree with YOU.)
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Old September 13, 2001, 12:12 AM   #46
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I personally don't give a darn what book they read or to what degree their beliefs infuence their actions. Any people or country that give refuge to any "terrorist" needs to be brought to its knees. I cant see how arresting this guy and giving him the death penalty will prevent future attrocities. Thats in effect giving him a reward!!!(aint Afganistan giving people the death penalty for teaching Christianity??). Theres only one way to fight a war, and war it is my friends. Inocents will suffer and die till one side says 'uncle'. Its a shame it has come to that but better them than us.
Perhaps the next attack will be chemical or bio stuff. Do we have to wait for that!! How many of our people have to die before its time to make an example of the 'host nation'? This is the ONLY thing that they will respect...fear, pain, and death in massive proportions. I dont see this as simply killing or persecuting a people because of cultural differences. This is SELF DEFENSE folks..plain and simple. I want my wife and children safe, and yours too.
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Old September 13, 2001, 12:18 AM   #47
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What the hell is there to debate?

A foreign country provided aid and shelter to a group that attacked the Continental United States. They killed our soldiers and our women and our children and destroyed our property.

I don't care if they are Muslim or charter members of the Antioch Baptist Church in Pigeon Forge, Tennessee.

We have got to wack 'em.

ALL of 'em.

We didn't issue a warrant for Hirohito, now did we?
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Old September 13, 2001, 12:36 AM   #48
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Recently saw a member go nuts about the "noble savage" BS. I'm kind of like that on "good wars."

Were we a terrorist nation when we bombed Dresden? Tokyo? What about when we bombed SWITZERLAND?!?! How about when we fought at Samar? If yes, then what have we got to lose? If no, then how would adding Kabul to the list change things?

Were the British a terrorist nation when they bombed Hamburg? How about when they invented concentration camps?

How about the Israelis in the Beka'a valley?

The truth is that the Germans goofed at Guernica, but, to avoid the obvious, Frederick the Great had some stern ideas for counter-insurgency.

Pick a country, and you'll find that everybody either tries and fails to make war cleanly, lies about how they're trying to do it cleanly, or just openly murders.

We don't have to like it, but things are GOING to get messier somewhere, and the corollary to Paine's social contract is that if the Afghans REALLY had a problem with their government, they'd REALLY have changed it by now.

Steve
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Old September 13, 2001, 12:41 AM   #49
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We bombed Switzerland? Damn.

I don't care what anybody SAYS they believe, but when they're ready to kill my countryment just 'cause...I'm ready to hasten their departure from this plane.

I want to put forward the 1,000 to 1 theory of retribution again. Kill one of ours...
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Old September 13, 2001, 04:14 AM   #50
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forget the koran or however ya want to spell it , look at the REAL BOOK, you know the one that says "an eye for an eye". seems to me that an awful lot of "eyes' were lost on 9/11
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