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Old September 19, 2001, 09:29 PM   #51
GSB
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I've seen martial artists break cinder blocks with rolled up magazines. Lots of things can be improvised weapons.
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Old September 20, 2001, 12:38 AM   #52
eyeball
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yeah but out in the public if somebody is armed, there could be another person out there thats armed that would level of the first armed person.

the difference with an armed guard in an airplane and an armed policeman on the streets is that the armed guard in the airplane is the only armed person in the world around him... and that is extremely dangerous.
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Old September 22, 2001, 01:00 AM   #53
parabellum9x19
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eyeball, ask yourself this question: What would you do if you were on that doomed plane that is headed for a suicide mission? You bet your ass you would wish their was an armed sheriff on board if you were aboard a run away plane.
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Old September 22, 2001, 01:01 PM   #54
TEXAS LAWMAN
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A couple of observations

1. Several authorities have indicated that a bullet hole in the skin of a jet will not cause depressurization to the extent that someone would be "sucked" out of the jet. A much larger opening is required. Apparently, we've all been watching too much TV.

2. CHEAPO--the Texas City disaster in 1947 was actually an explosion of ammonium nitrate, not propane (a French ship was carring the fertilizer--prilled ammonium nitrate--they attempted to extinguish a fire by flooding the cargo area with steam and then closed the hatch / ammonium nitrate is an oxidizer--it provides oxygen to fires even when air is excluded).
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Old September 22, 2001, 01:38 PM   #55
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parabellum: but thats not what im talking about though. im saying that many more accidents like what happened on september 11 could happen in the future because of the presense of an armed person aboard the aircraft.

and then the question would be like: "how would you feel if you were on board that plane that crashed when that armed guard took everyone hostage and crashed the plane into that one building?"
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Old September 22, 2001, 04:37 PM   #56
parabellum9x19
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Several authorities have stated that a bullet size hole will depressurize the cabin. But there are special bullets now which with less penetration.

Eyeball you are clueless. Since you are so paranoid that law enforcement will go nuts and shoot everyone, you should stay at home forever. According to your insane logic, all police officers should be disarmed. Maybe you should move to England where no one is allowed guns.
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Old September 23, 2001, 08:29 AM   #57
Byron Quick
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eyeball, El Al flies thousands of flights every year. All of them have armed security. They have for decades. Have you ever heard of a problem such as you envisage on a single El Al flight? No, you have not. Do you know why you have never heard of such? Because it has never happened. When is the last time you have heard of a federal agent going berserk and killing people at random? The policies and procedures of these agencies may be subject to criticism. Some of the agents may be willing to follow very questionable orders. But the agencies are very good at weeding out madmen.

With all of the very real dangers facing all of us today, I believe we need to focus on real dangers rather than playing what ifs with a ten million to one scenario.

Personally, I rarely fly and see no need to change my habits. If I am on a plane being hijacked I will attack the closest while screaming,"Get them!" while whaling away with a cane or a small oxygen tank and I will do it at the moment of the first announcement. Being a nurse, I will have no problem getting a doctor to write me a prescription for either.

I do not believe that most Americans will sit there waiting to become a guided missle after the events of September 11. I know I will not.

Oh, the terrorists on Flight 93 did not attain their objective of turning the flight into another guided missle. The deaths of the passengers was incidental to them. They lost completely. The passengers who resisted were aware of the hijackers objective. From cell phone calls they placed, it is apparent their primary objective had become to prevent the hijackers' from destroying more innocent Americans. They obtained their objective. When the stakes are high enough, "winning" does not necessarily include personal survival. If that were so, many of the holders of the Congressional Medal of Honor would be considered losers. I don't think so. If you do, please go to one of the websites that has the citations for the Congressional Medal of Honor holders, read the citations issued posthumously, and then come back and tell me they lost. I dare you.

We are in a war, people. All of us, not just our government, and not just our military. Read the fatwa issued by Osama bin Laden and supported by thousands of others of his ilk. It does not list just the American government or the American military. It lists all Americans-the elderly, men, women, children, even babes in arms. All of us are targets and all of us must be ready. We must be ready at a moment's notice to answer the call as did Jeremy Glick, Tom Burnett, and Mark Bingham.
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Old September 23, 2001, 11:54 AM   #58
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Eyeball, you are right. I can see what you are saying.

I worry about my local sherrif at the county fair jumping up with is 15 shot pistol and killing a whole bunch of people. It give me the willies to think of how the LEOs can hijack the local gas trucks, and just run one into a football game and kill us all! Just takes one LEO nut job. Or one CCW/CHL nut job. Forget all the real nut job terrorist who WANT to do this, lets look at all the people around us that theoreticly can be a nut job. Yes, lets crack down on them!

Gads, just think of the ramfications! Any armed LEO, MILITARY, or CCW/CHL carrier can just walk into a refinery and start shooting inceneraries at the fuel tanks, what a thought. Has it ever happend? Well, no. but it can! It might! Someday!

Hey, any person who can make a bomb, can just blow up a AMTRACK, or get on board with a AK. Holy Toledo.... we have to restrain all passengers by handcuffs for the duration of the journey.

Eyeball, you are right on the nose. Lets get them to ban all people from owning guns, learning martial arts, thinking for themselves. Just tell them to dump them in the river and get to work like good slaves.

We must make the country safe for terrorist. Good guys don't need guns, we have Chuck Norris, Steven Segal, Jackie Chan, and all those action heros to save us. Don't you see them defeating all those bad guys with just brains and karate.

Eyeball, you have got to learn to trust someone, least no one has the power to stop a evil attack. For every chance of a LEO, or CCW carrier doing an evil deed, there are 1000 times more chance of a evil BG doing one and needing one good man to stop them. Get a grip.

Deaf
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Old September 23, 2001, 01:54 PM   #59
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Quote:
When the stakes are high enough, "winning" does not necessarily include personal survival.
Exactly. The first passenger just throws his arms around the BGs neck and brings him to the ground, making sure to land on top. He (the passenger) may even survive this, but the BG is in a position to be stomped. No MA training required, just mindset...
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Old September 25, 2001, 12:25 AM   #60
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Totally agree with just grabbing them. I'm sure that as they walk down the isle they will have their back to you as they pass.

In high school, we did a stunt where you grab someone from behind and squeeze hard. Within 20-30 seconds, they pass out. Not much they can do about it.

I've gotta put this one here in re being a real man:

No matter the time or place, I will "save the day" or die trying. But, I won't whimper or cry before or after. My brother is 5'2" tall. He was in a convenience store when a guy robbed it and was slapping the girl around. The guy was 6'2" tall and armed with a large knife. My brother jumped on him and beat the crap out of him. My brother suffered a huge slash across his abdomen and all his guts were showing. When the cops showed up, my brother was still on top of him smashing his face in. I'm so proud of my brother...
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Old September 26, 2001, 12:09 PM   #61
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well, I have an idea here...


those were razor blade case cutters, NOT knives... ANYONE who has ever used one, knows that those blades break easier than any other substance known to man (except silence)

I think I (knowing that) WOULD have confronted them, using my lft arm (weak side) as a shield... and the instant I felt that blade cut intomy arm, I'd have reefed sideways, while twisting that arm, leaving the blade broken, and the tip in my arm...

that leaves them with no weapon... and me with a good right cross...

next item... peppergas canisters they held... GREAT... fire that stuff off... as they push the button, I take a deep breath, and hold it... I MAY be blinded, but I have stored air... THEY do not, and figuring they're safe, keep breathing.

In that confined space, they're done, with their first inhale... then all I have to do is get my foot on their neck BEFORE I inhale, and keep it there, and I don't HAVE to see..

keep the foot there until thry don't move, wait another 3 minutes, and problem solved, no terrorist...

it REALLY is that easy... you aren't gonna kill me with a box cutter if I am prepared... and peppergas is just gonna get us both, and **** me off... and a ****** off me, is a BAD thing for those who ****** me off...
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Old September 26, 2001, 07:00 PM   #62
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Another tactical/alt force element....

I'm really, really embarassed that I never thought about the throw a blanket over the BG's head trick.

Far, far less risky with an edged-weapon opponent than for one with a firearm.

Talked with my dad Sunday, and he's having nighmares because of past anti-terrorist training. He's always known the possibilities (including CBR), but this reminder has rattled him.

He says hijackings will *ALWAYS* be possible, because all the weapons he needs are ALREADY on the airplane. Think creatively, my friends!
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Old September 27, 2001, 11:03 PM   #63
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Hey, if you take the BG's out and there is noone flying the plane... get to the controls and man the plane.
It's simple.
Landing it may be bumpy, but anyone can do it....
Most controllers will walk you thru it, but anyone with common sense can snag the basics:
find something to land on, even if its a highway... cars will get out of the way. Lower your speed, and FLAPS DOWN, so you won't stall. Then if you're lined up enough..... put the big bird down. then let the plane stop, and pray you don't hit an overpass.
Geesh, I've seen to many movies.
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Old September 28, 2001, 12:55 AM   #64
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Reaction/reaction time

When your plane gets hijacked, you will be sitting in a window seat eating your smoked almonds and sipping your half can of cola. Some loonie is going to be running down the aisle toward the cockpit - probably a 10 - 20 second journey - bashing and slashing aisle seat people with whatever and screaming about his bomb when he gets up front.

As you climb over Rosie O'Donnell and Congresscritter Natter to end this miscreant's pain you will be stopped by good minded passengers responding to the stewardess' screams as the terrorist applies lethal levels of distortion or slashing to her neck as he warns you to get back. At least for the first few moments most are going to be surprised, confused and demoralized. This is all that is needed at first.

Cockpit doors are designed to yield at 40# of force so cockpit can be an escape route, just in case. If that door doesn't yield and the pilot has the stones he can make life marginal for anyone not strapped in.

Give the engineer a video monitor on the cargo and the aircrew a panic button. FAA can work out approved barrel rolls and whoop de doos. "Attention passengers, please put on your seatbelts, you have a hijacker standing in 1st class and I am about to start evasive maneuvers". If the perp straps in, have the air crew halt the drill and beat the perp to mush a la the panicky woman in "Airport".

As for air marshals, 10,000 flights /day. El Al, 1-2000 flights/year.
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Old September 28, 2001, 02:04 AM   #65
parabellum9x19
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Bush has authorized 2 generals to give the o.k. to shoot down airlines that are hijacked. Before the 11th only the president had this authority. This has been announced nationwide on t.v. today.

If your plane is hijacked and an airforce jet is coming for the plane your best bet will be to fight the terrorists otherwise you will be shoot down by a jet.
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Old September 28, 2001, 04:16 AM   #66
Byron Quick
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Well, I for one, if on a hijacked plane will try to overpower the hijackers or die trying. If they say they've a bomb then they will have to damn well prove it. And if we fail to overpower the hijackers, I will be praying for the Air Force to shoot us down and blessing the fighter pilots with my last thought. I refuse to be part and parcel of a weapon aimed at my fellow citizens. If someone holds me hostage...hold a funeral service for me and kill the bastards.

"Is life so sweet or peace so dear..."
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Old September 28, 2001, 06:43 AM   #67
Tim Burke
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Quote:
Hey, if you take the BG's out and there is noone flying the plane... get to the controls and man the plane.
If you take the BG's out, there will be some one flying the plane. If you do it early, it should still be the pilot. Please return your seat backs and tray tables to the upright position because you will be landing shortly. And, if you do it late, it may be one of the hijackers. When you try to get him out of the pilot's seat he'll put the plane into a negative g dive, you'll hit the ceiling, and the plane will hit the ground. That's still a success, but it's not a complete success.
The fight will be on as soon as the first passenger resists. Your best chance at survival is to have the first passenger resist as soon as possible. Since the only passenger you have any control over is yourself, you need to plan to be the first passenger. Hurry! I'm not waiting for you.
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Old September 29, 2001, 08:40 PM   #68
parabellum9x19
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Good News. National Guard will be patrolling the nations airports next week.
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Old September 29, 2001, 11:18 PM   #69
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The solution is the 2nd Amendment.

How hard is this to figure out? Why in the Sam Hill do you people swear to support the Constitution, and then think it is okay that I be prevented from carrying a pistol on an airplane?

Are you PRO-RKBA, or not?

There is a line in the sand here, which side do you choose?

If you support the 2nd Amendment, then I have the right to carry my .45 on board an aircraft...and the topic of this thread becomes moot.

If you deny the 2nd Amendment, then get back to your discussion about towels and blankets...and include me the hell out.
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Old October 3, 2001, 12:38 PM   #70
Cheapo
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Look at the FORUM!

Come on, Cap'n, this is the ALTERNATIVE FORCE/CLOSE QUARTERS COMBAT forum. Blankets belong in the discussion. guns still fit in the CQB portion of the mix.

Even if you carry 24/7, the historical record has shown that circumstances can arise where you absolutely cannot deploy your firearm.

If a hammer is the ONLY tool you have, what'chagonnado if the problem facing you is NOT a nail?

Since your brain and your will (combined) are your greatest weapons, I surely hope that you can think creatively. Then you can contribute to the discussion.

Sheesh!
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Old October 3, 2001, 02:04 PM   #71
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Capnrik;

I agree with you 100%. I believe it's my right to carry a firearm all the time, anywhere I want.

However, if you or I try to get a firearm on a plane, we're going to get an
extended vacation at the federal gov'ts expense.

I know which battles to pick and that ain't one of 'em!

So, God forbid this situation should happen to anyone of us, we'll
be working with what we've got, not our trusty .45s.

Consequently, this discussion is not moot, and is in fact extremely
pertinent to what's going on.

To restate someone else post, there are any number of things on a plane
that can be used as weapons.

If you ever end up in this situation, observe, think and then act decisively!!!

My two pence.

Steve.
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Old October 3, 2001, 06:16 PM   #72
capnrik
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Well.....you're both right

And I stand corrected. For whatever reason, I responded to this topic completely out of context..."Look at the forum!"

Also got a bit mouthy while I was at it.

Cheapo said it best, Your brains and your will are your greatest weapons.

Guess I was partially unarmed at the time.
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Old October 3, 2001, 06:21 PM   #73
armedbutnotdangerous
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Forgiven!

Takes guts to admit you made a mistake.

Steve.
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Old October 4, 2001, 12:25 PM   #74
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Testiness Mode OFF. All is forgiven. Peace, Man!
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