The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 19, 2001, 06:39 PM   #1
LASur5r
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 20, 2000
Location: pasadena,california,America
Posts: 542
Revisit an old scenario?

I was rereading an old thread the other day...it was on several sites, but there was still a lot of argument about what to do with one of the BG's....this scenario was based on an actual event where the BG got away.

You are coming home and you see a man dressed in a ski mask and various other garb, holding a handgun in his right hand. He is quietly walking down your driveway as you are driving up your driveway. The man is pointedly ignoring you and as you stop your vehicle you hear what sounds like your wife screaming from the house.
She is not visible. He continues walking towards his car across the street.

What do you do? You have your CCW on you.

There seemed to be a big argument as to what was morally right and tactically right.

As it turned out, the BG had pistol whipped the lady in the house after he had tied her up. Somehow, it was rumored that he had some kind of relationship with the couple....but you don't know that as you drove up the driveway.

What would you do?
LASur5r is offline  
Old August 19, 2001, 07:35 PM   #2
PreserveFreedom
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
It's hard to say what emotions took over. Your life isn't in immediate danger, or is it? He could point and shoot pretty fast if he already has pistol in hand. It could go either way really.
 
Old August 19, 2001, 11:49 PM   #3
Seeker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 30, 2001
Location: Lacomb, Oregon
Posts: 1,393
"Gee, Officer, he was wearing dark clothes and I didn't know he was there 'til I heard him bounce off my car. What was he doing in my driveway, anyway?"

Ron Reagan called it Plausible Deniability.
__________________
Molon Labe
Seeker

"The oppressed should rebel, and they will continue to rebel and raise disturbance until their civil rights are fully restored to them and all partial distinctions, exclusions and incapacitations are removed." --Thomas Jefferson
Don't Tread On Me!
"Equal and exact justice to all men, of whatever state or persuasion, religious or political; peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none" -- Thomas Jefferson

In order to rally people, governments need enemies. They want us to be afraid, to hate, so we will rally behind them. And if they do not have a real enemy, they will invent one in order to mobilize us.
-Thich Nhat Hanh
Seeker is offline  
Old August 20, 2001, 12:28 AM   #4
yorec
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 2, 2000
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 2,324
I like that answer, Seeker!

Hmmm. Let's see how I could apply it -

I'm afraid I'll still feel like I need to capture the guy, but I'm going to have to have the upper hand. You say may wife is screaming form inside the house? That means I'm going to be in an awful hurry too. Is it OK if I collect him from underneath the car after I hurry inside to check on her?

Howzat?
yorec is offline  
Old August 22, 2001, 05:30 PM   #5
Cheapo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 19, 1998
Posts: 986
I thought this one played out as being the poster's own son exiting the "stage" during a drama class exercise being conducted after school in the home.

Guy drew down & got the "perp" to surrender.

Me, I'd go with on-sitte gut instincts as to whether he's a possible *returning* threat who needs to be tied up (OH SO RISKY!!!) or a departing threat to be carefully described when I get the 911 operator.

My first priority would be to safely secure the home and render aid to the injured whilst carefully watching my six.

All depends on what's important to you, I guess.
__________________
Let us never forget that the only legitimate source of government power is the citizens. If WE cannot exercise a certain power, we cannot grant it to the state.
Cheapo is offline  
Old August 23, 2001, 11:24 AM   #6
nwgunman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 16, 1999
Location: Olympia, WA
Posts: 312
Let's see here-ski mask, gun in hand, wife screaming. I suggest that any reasonable and prudent person would conclude that a violent crime is being committed. Personally, I would take cover behind my vehicles engine and confront the individual. I would not let the individual leave. Of course, I would have reacted immediately upon seeing an armed indiviudal, in disguise, on my property. Having only the details given in this scenario, and being the person that I am, I am fully justified in taking this action. Some other person, perhaps with extra-legal recreational activities, or diverse interpersonal relationships, may have to act in a different fashion. Remember, a deadly weapon is visible. The individual is disguised. My wife is screaming. All these lead the "reasonable and prudent" person that I am to the obvious conclusion. Stay safe.
nwgunman is offline  
Old August 23, 2001, 11:42 AM   #7
RazorsEdge
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 11, 2001
Location: Dallas
Posts: 207
He has a gun in his hand. He is wearing a ski mask. If it ain't Halloween, shoot him.

To shoot to eliminate the threat.
__________________
Descretion is the better part of WhupAss
RazorsEdge is offline  
Old August 24, 2001, 07:02 PM   #8
LASur5r
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 20, 2000
Location: pasadena,california,America
Posts: 542
bg WITH MASK

Very interesting...you gentlemen have pretty much agreed with stopping a perceived threat on your property.
On the last thread, it was turning into a pretty good debate as to whether or not the good guy was going to a) stop the perceived threat by challenging the BG and shooting if he responded negatively b) stopping did not mean tying the BG up, the majority did not want to stop to disarm the perp and somehow tying the potential threat with your or his shoe laces c) letting the BG go and go to rescue the wife (leaving the threat now at your back).

I thank you for your direct responses...in the real case, the good guy in the car let the guy in the ski mask go and he ran into the house to help his screaming wife.
LASur5r is offline  
Old August 25, 2001, 10:43 PM   #9
nwgunman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 16, 1999
Location: Olympia, WA
Posts: 312
I would not assume that there is only one "bad guy". I would not assume that he is going to his vehicle to effect an escape. Maybe he's just going back for more duct tape. Stay safe.
nwgunman is offline  
Old August 27, 2001, 08:43 AM   #10
FPrice
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 25, 2000
Location: People's Commonwealth of Massachusetts
Posts: 1,456
Perhaps it's time to utilize that highly versatile, less-than-lethal personal defense item called the cell phone to call 911 and report a possible assault and armed man at the following location.....

I can understand everyone's desire to stop someone who MAY be a threat and who MAY have just assaulted someone and MAY be armed. But remember that application of gunfire OR your automobile is a very permanent issue and finding out that what you thought was an assault wasn't after all can leave you very vulnerable to criminal and civil charges. Not to mention your own feelings of regret at finding out that the person lying dead in your driveway, possibly under your car was not a bad guy after all.

This is a very difficult scenario and probably is a great training aid to help think through these issues before being confronted with them. But, unless you know beyond ANY doubt (not just a reasonable doubt) you had better not do anything which cannot be taken back.

I know I would be tempted to confront this individual. I can only hope and pray that I am never confronted with such a situation and do my best to prepare for it if it ever did happen to me.
__________________
Frosty Price

"No matter where you go, there you are." Buckaroo Banzai
FPrice is offline  
Old August 28, 2001, 12:31 PM   #11
Cheapo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 19, 1998
Posts: 986
FPrice:

Seems like you are one of the somewhat lonely voices recognizing the LACK of mission-critical information in the scenario.

Unless prompted otherwise by a higher power , I find the lack of info about *other* hostiles in the area to be a very sound reason to NOT immediately engage and perhaps shoot an apparent retreating, though obviously-armed, probable felon who may or may not be the cause of the woman's screaming inside the house.

You can even make a mistake about the sound of their own wife's screaming voice.

Think this through--how many assume it's just ONE perpetrator? If the screams come from another perp's actions, what chance does your wife have after the first shot is fired and you don't even know what room she and the accomplice are in?

Intelligence, boys, we need more intelligence. Control and neutralize if the visible perp engages you, but I would hesitate to actively engage before I learn more about the screaming woman inside.
__________________
Let us never forget that the only legitimate source of government power is the citizens. If WE cannot exercise a certain power, we cannot grant it to the state.
Cheapo is offline  
Old August 28, 2001, 03:09 PM   #12
FPrice
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 25, 2000
Location: People's Commonwealth of Massachusetts
Posts: 1,456
Cheapo....

Without knowing anything about you I feel that I can safely assume that you have either a law enforcement background, are military....OR have a high degree of common sense!

You have pinpointed the problem with a high degree of accuracy. The scenario outside is such that it would raise my situational awareness level to DEFCON 2, but no higher. Even with all that has been said about the person outside, there is no justification for firing your weapon, and you have no idea what else is going on or who else may be nearby. To show your hand too early could be disasterous, and possibly fatal to you or a potentially innocent person.

I would defintely have my weapon in my hand, most likely hidden at my side, and I would be extremely alert to any and all sounds, motions, etc. (at least as much as I could be).

One of the problems with this discussion may have been that many people seemed to know the scenario and "knew" that this was a bad guy, thereby letting that knowledge color their responses. YOu just can't do that in real life. Hard as it may be, you HAVE to wait for justification to shoot, you can't assume it.
__________________
Frosty Price

"No matter where you go, there you are." Buckaroo Banzai
FPrice is offline  
Old August 30, 2001, 08:44 PM   #13
nwgunman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 16, 1999
Location: Olympia, WA
Posts: 312
Good answers, guys. And jeez, don't I seem like a real "blood and guts, shoot-first-ask-questions later" kind of maniac. Sheesh. I just put myself, and my physical and social situation, into the "role play" and came up with what I thought would be the only really safe way out. Anybody coming down my drive with a ski mask and gun in hand has to come straight towards my vehicle, my wife's not a "screamer", etc, etc. Those sort of "modifiers", if you will. But, still good thoughtful answers. Posts like these are worth their weight in gold! It's somewhat unnerving thinking about how many "armed citizens" are out there right now in a blissful state of ignorance concering the use of dealy force, "real life" tactics, etc. Thanks, and stay safe.
nwgunman is offline  
Old August 31, 2001, 01:03 PM   #14
Cheapo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 19, 1998
Posts: 986
When all is said and done, if a person faced with this scenario drew down, challenged that masked man (howdyaknowthateezaguy?) and fired as the masked man raised his firearm in any human's general direction, there would likely be neither criminal charges nor a civil suit. At least no legal action with any chance of conviction/judgment against our homeowner.

IF IF IF IF the assumptions about it being a lone perpetrator are correct, all would be well...or well enough, at least.

I am just a bit leery of taking such aggressive action without knowing more about why the woman continues to scream when that dude is OUTSIDE the house.

Certain rules regarding escaping armed violent felons would come into play only if you had personal knowledge that the individual had done unjustifed and severe bodily damage to some (even comparatively-) innocent person.
__________________
Let us never forget that the only legitimate source of government power is the citizens. If WE cannot exercise a certain power, we cannot grant it to the state.
Cheapo is offline  
Old August 31, 2001, 02:18 PM   #15
FPrice
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 25, 2000
Location: People's Commonwealth of Massachusetts
Posts: 1,456
nwgunman....

To be perfectly fair to all, the easy questions are easy to answer. (e.g., you see a man beating another man, or a woman on the ground with a big stick or a rock, you can pretty much assume that using force against that man is justified)

But it's when you come upon an ambiguous situation that requires you to think and analyze what you see (that's all you can go by, what you can actually see and verify for yourself) that the answer becomes harder and more thoughtful.

As I said in an earlier post to Cheapo, many people seemed to already be familiar with this scenario and possibly jumped ahead to a conclusion which was ultimately warranted but you were not quite at that point in what was presented.

The other important factor is the location. If I drive up to MY house, and see an armed, masked man coming down MY driveway, and he doesn't have a POLICE vest on, I am FAIRLY certain that something wrong may be going on.

I just hope that the majority of thread readers will use this exercise to think and expand their range of options and ability to think a situation through.
__________________
Frosty Price

"No matter where you go, there you are." Buckaroo Banzai
FPrice is offline  
Old September 4, 2001, 09:40 AM   #16
RazorsEdge
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 11, 2001
Location: Dallas
Posts: 207
My thought is that this guy can turn and fire a round at you in a half second. The scenario can change that fast!

Plus, when you get inside and find your kid dead, the fact that you let the guy go will haunt you the rest of your life.

I might consider getting the drop on him and telling him to drop his gun, but if that gun comes up, I will shoot.
__________________
Descretion is the better part of WhupAss
RazorsEdge is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:49 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.10132 seconds with 9 queries