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Old September 1, 2001, 11:14 PM   #26
Justin Moore
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Quote:
Fifth: So what if he was an ex-felon. There were no restrictions on ex-felons on firearm ownership prior to the GCA68. That piece of fiat legislation circumvented the Second Amendment and the Bill of Rights. In the ninteenth century the bad guys, upon exiting prison, were issued their property; which included their rig that they wore when they were apprehended. Of course, that was back in the days when the Second Amendment meant something.
Well spoken Jim

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Democracy: A government of the masses, authority derived through mass meetings or any other form of direct expression; results in mobocracy; attitude toward property is communistic negating property rights; attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate whether it is based upon deliberation or governed by passion, prejudice, and impulse, without restraint or regard to consequences; its result is dem-o-gogism, license, agitation, discontent and anarchy.

Republic: Authority is derived through the election by the people of public officials best suited to represent them. Attitude toward property is respect for laws and individual rights and a sensible economic procedure. Attitude toward law is the administration of justice in accord with fixed principles that establish evidence with a strict regard for consequences. A greater number of citizens and extent of territory may be brought within its compass, it avoids the dangerous extremes of either tyranny or mobocracy. Results in statesmanship, liberty, reason, justice contentment and progress, is a standard for government around the world.
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Old September 2, 2001, 12:42 AM   #27
LawDog
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Vitiaz,

Quote:
Those are the facts.

>>>

Can anyone corroborate or refute this?
The corrobaration depends on the source of the information you posted; ie., who posted it and what makes you think the poster is credible?

One can learn many unusual things on the Internet -- I have just recently learned that the Earth is actually flat. Although, I think this tends to contradict those who can prove that the Earth is actually hollow -- a fact discovered by the man who helped recover the spear that pierced the side of Christ during His crucifixion.

Somewhere about here I have a URL which unconditionally proves that the Gor series of books are actually documentaries, instead of poorly written misogynist fiction.

*sigh*

There is a saying, which I believe is probably as old as the World Wide Web: "On the Internet, no one knows that you're a dog."

Except for me: everyone knows I'm a dog.

Somebody posts that the critter was a DEA agent. Fine. Until I see some sort of verification in the story, I file it under "Misc. Internet Codswallop" in the old mental harddrive.

Did the poster even use a real name, or is he/she/it hiding behind a creative Internet handle? Or using the always-popular 'Anonymous'?

LawDog
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Old September 2, 2001, 01:27 AM   #28
Justin Moore
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Quote:
Somewhere about here I have a URL which unconditionally proves that the Gor series of books are actually documentaries, instead of poorly written misogynist fiction.
LOL
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Democracy: A government of the masses, authority derived through mass meetings or any other form of direct expression; results in mobocracy; attitude toward property is communistic negating property rights; attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate whether it is based upon deliberation or governed by passion, prejudice, and impulse, without restraint or regard to consequences; its result is dem-o-gogism, license, agitation, discontent and anarchy.

Republic: Authority is derived through the election by the people of public officials best suited to represent them. Attitude toward property is respect for laws and individual rights and a sensible economic procedure. Attitude toward law is the administration of justice in accord with fixed principles that establish evidence with a strict regard for consequences. A greater number of citizens and extent of territory may be brought within its compass, it avoids the dangerous extremes of either tyranny or mobocracy. Results in statesmanship, liberty, reason, justice contentment and progress, is a standard for government around the world.
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Old September 2, 2001, 01:09 PM   #29
Don Gwinn
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Let's be fair, here. We cannot expect firefighters to go into that house. If they could water it down from behind the police position with that tower, that's a good idea. However, I doubt that would save the house or the suspect, and what if while you're pouring water on the house and not putting the fire out, it catches one of the neighboring houses? You could fight that fire, but chances are there are two or three more houses close enough to catch and then you have no chance. If you can keep them wet so the fire simply doesn't spread you have a better chance.

If I were crazy enough to be a fireman and the chief asked for volunteers to go into a burning house with a guy hidden somewhere inside with a rifle (a guy who had already killed one cop) you'd be able to hear the air pop as I stepped back with lightning speed.
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Old September 2, 2001, 04:28 PM   #30
Mr. Pub
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I saw the whole thing on TV. The firemen were behind a wall shooting water way up over and covering the house next door. They could have easily moved the water stream to the right over the burning house and then back over to the house next door.

It was obvious that the agents in charge wanted the fire to continue for 1.) If its burning, Beck won't be shooting anyone. 2.) A bit of payback for shooting one of their friends. I doubt that any of us would be in a different frame of mind if we were in the commanders shoes.

The only problem with all this is that it reduces peoples trust in the government when they try to cover their tracks. The government burning someone in their home is not a good symbol for people to see on TV - even if it seemed like the guy had it coming.

By the way, the LA Times stated today that the probable cause to raid his home was that they had evidence of Beck buying ammunition. Since a felon can't legally own firearms, I guess that would be probable cause. I feel better about that then if they just took the word of some goofy neighbor that he was stockpiling weapons or telling people that he was a super secret agent.
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Old September 2, 2001, 08:48 PM   #31
Don Gwinn
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Again, I am not an expert on firefighting, but a stream of water would not have saved the house if there was a major fire inside, would it? Wouldn't you have to have firefighters go in (or at least near on the ground level) and pour water to the inside?

I'm beginning to have doubts about how Kuredgian died (and I promised myself I wouldn't automatically assume a coverup) but I stand by what I said above, 'cause the firemen had no way of knowing any of that. They had to go on the information the cops gave them at the scene, which was that some nutjob was shooting everyone who raised his head. Again, it's not their job to take a bullet.
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Old September 2, 2001, 11:44 PM   #32
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The news on FOX stated that the authorities state that Beck started the fire. Coincidentally, a couple of tear gas cannisters were thrown into that upper bedroom window several minutes before "Beck started the fire".

As for those who question the fire department, I watched this thing from the outset (see prior post) and shortly after the fire started the ladder unit on the left not the one behind the wall to the right (observations from the rear of the house) was able to direct a stream (estimated at 600-1000 GPM) directly into the window of that bedroom. That much water bouncing around a room would have put out, or suppressed, the fire in that room.

As I watched this unfold, the ladder truck on the left turned the unmanned water cannon at the top of that ladder onto the house on the left and that is where it remained for the duration of the fire.

It is not the duty, nor the purvue, of the police to send firemen into harm's way. Nor is it the duty, nor the purvue, of the fire department to allow property to be destroyed, and human beings killed, at the behest of the police. From the time of the Baca tearful news conference to the first flicker of flame could not have been 15 minutes. I think the Sean Connery philosophy went out to the troops at that time and this guy was toast (pun not intended).

By the way. I have dealt with LASOs when I was in L.A. and they are not the best bunch of guys on the planet. I had a friend who became an LASO and he quit because the cowboys made it impossible to work there. He said that no matter how nice you tried to be the prisoners would treat you like s--- a lot of which was based on the behavior of other officers. He said that it is too easy to become desensitized to other humans and that most of the LASOs suffered from that trait.

The bad thing is that the SOs are stationed at the county jail directly after graduation from the academy. This placed them in close quatrters with the drags of the Earth for 1/3 of their life. They become very disillusioned very quickly. That is what happened to my friend.

The LAPD officers, on the other hand, don't have this forced interaction with the scum. they go to the streets where they have a chance to interact with real people as well as the scum. Hence, they do not get as jaded as quickly as the SOs do.
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Old September 3, 2001, 03:23 AM   #33
Justin Moore
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Another viewpoint on this:

http://sanantoniolightning.com/t&g.html

Quote:
The Killing Of America
Ruby Ridge, Waco, Lubbock
And Santa Clarita
Santa Clarita?
John Tarsikes, Jr., and Kathryn A. Graham

Well here we are again, sounding like a broken record ( record: a wax or vinyl disc once used to play music by inserting a needle in…well, you older folks know what we’re talking about).

What we mean is that we listened to the report of the attempted arrest of James Beck and heard the same old song once again.

The warrant accused Beck of “stockpiling weapons.”

Suspect fired hundreds of shots at the beginning of the standoff.

SWAT team officers surrounded the home and fired tear gas inside.

Gas clouds billowed from second floor windows moments later, and the blaze burned for about 20 minutes before firefighters began battling the fire.

Although there was some speculation that the tear gas may have ignited the fire, authorities believe Beck “started the blaze himself.”

BATF must have a set of press release forms that they pass out at these events which only require the name, time and date to be filled in, because the result is always the same!

Note: BATF had a presence here. A neighbor who reported witnessing the initial contact with Beck by agents stated: "They started yelling at him to come outside. He came to the door and said he didn't want them to hurt his dog. They said, 'We don't care about the dog.' At that point, he kept repeating, ‘Don't hurt my dog.’ "

"He went back in the house and he closed his door. At that point they kept yelling at him to come out, and then his girlfriend came out through the garage. Officers then tried to knock down the door and gunfire erupted as officers started to go through a window.”

Ruby Ridge, Waco, Lubbock and a host of other incidents are very similar and all have resulted in the loss of life, loss of property and loss of faith in our government agencies.

Years ago, we were taught in law enforcement classes never to give in, not to allow your authority to be questioned and that it was a sin to back down from a fight. This made for tough cops and that was what was needed years ago. But times have changed.

The American public no longer has faith in their government agencies. They are tired of being pushed - pushed at work by multi-tasking, pushed on the streets by overcrowded highways, pushed in their homes by rising costs, interest rates, the IRS, and on and on … “Going Postal” is now a part of our language and culture.

This must be taken into account by agents attempting to serve a warrant. Tactics need to be adopted that defuse a situation before it escalates into a shoot out. What could have been done to prevent the Santa Clarita incident?

One of the SUSPECTED offenses reported to be included in the warrant was “stockpiling weapons.” If we think a suspect is stockpiling weapons, why would we try to arrest him AT HOME WHERE THE WEAPONS ARE? Common sense should dictate that the arrest be made in a place remote from the house. Take the manpower wasted on SWAT and use it to follow the suspect until he stops in a place safe to make an arrest. Experience tells us it is much easier to grab a guy just as he gets out of his car, rather than letting him run in his house and get guns and ammo, and set up a barricade.

SWAT team officers surrounded the home and fired tear gas inside. This seems to be a recurring theme. Next, the house burns down. Any competent policeman should see this as a possibility and avoid making the arrest at the suspect’s HOME WHERE THE WEAPONS ARE! This saves lives - and a lot of money. It is cheaper just to book a suspect, rather than to have to fight fire, do autopsies, bury cops, and defend against civil suits. We would just follow the guy until the arrest could be made in a safe surrounding. Worst case? He could be armed with a concealed weapon, (not a whole basement full of who knows what that he could have at home) but we know this. In EVERY case like this we have investigated, neighbors report that the suspect was always seen walking around the neighborhood. Seems like it would be easier to take a suspect walking his dog or getting his mail, rather than to have to try to break into a barricaded house doesn’t it?

Officers use inflammatory attitude. In this case, officers reportedly had the suspect at his front door and should be able to make the arrest. A witness reports that Beck asked them not to hurt his dog. She stated that the officers said ”We don't care about the dog.” And that Beck kept saying “Don't hurt my dog.” We think that this single phrase resulted in the deaths of the officer and suspect. What you say to people has more effect than what you do to them. There is a clinical term usually applicable to people hoarding weapons. Paranoid. Tell even a sane dog lover you don’t care about their dog, and you get them riled. Try to harm it, and you are going to have to fight. If you are a cop making an arrest, “We don't care about the dog” translates to the suspect as “We don't care about you.”

You don’t have to be paranoid - just scared - to break and run. What could have changed this outcome of the Beck case?

By taking the time and effort to make the arrest away from the house. If the arrest just had to be made at his home…

By nabbing the suspect as soon as he opened the door. Yelling at him was a waste of time, and it meant the officers were showing fear. There was a warrant. There was plenty of time to talk after the suspect was SAFELY in custody. Being named in an active warrant is not a CAPITAL OFFENSE! And if they just had to talk…

By being empathetic. We firmly believe that the whole event would have ended satisfactorily had the officers just said something like “Hey, that’s a fine dog. How about stepping outside so he won’t get hurt. We have to take you, anyway, so why don’t you tell us who to call to come get the dog until you bail out?” This talk reassures the suspect that you want the best for his pet, and therefore for him. It also changes the focus from his plight to making sure the dog is taken care of. By adding “Until you make bail” gives the suspect reassurance that his situation will not be permanent, and redirects his thoughts to thinking about who to call to make bond. All speaking should be done in a firm but understanding voice. Fear must not show. If you are scared, it scares the suspect. They worry how fear will make you react. The suspect is not surprised that you place him in handcuffs as soon as he comes out. He is not afraid of someone that is going to treat his pet right. He is already trying to figure out how to make bail.

All of this tends to defuse the situation. These are all tried and proven tactics that are used 24/7 by small town officers who are usually alone when they have to serve warrants or make arrests. Most don’t have SWAT to call, so they soon learn that being firm and empathetic at the same time gets the job done. Treating the suspect like a human being goes a lot farther than any bullet.

Or fire.

(John Tarsikes, Jr., and Kathryn A. Graham are joint owners of Safetynet Associates )
Its time for the ATF to go. And I don't want to here anyone whining about 'who's gonna catch the gun criminals' either
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Democracy: A government of the masses, authority derived through mass meetings or any other form of direct expression; results in mobocracy; attitude toward property is communistic negating property rights; attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate whether it is based upon deliberation or governed by passion, prejudice, and impulse, without restraint or regard to consequences; its result is dem-o-gogism, license, agitation, discontent and anarchy.

Republic: Authority is derived through the election by the people of public officials best suited to represent them. Attitude toward property is respect for laws and individual rights and a sensible economic procedure. Attitude toward law is the administration of justice in accord with fixed principles that establish evidence with a strict regard for consequences. A greater number of citizens and extent of territory may be brought within its compass, it avoids the dangerous extremes of either tyranny or mobocracy. Results in statesmanship, liberty, reason, justice contentment and progress, is a standard for government around the world.
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Old September 3, 2001, 09:22 AM   #34
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The thing I love about Monday Morning Quarterbacking is that no matter what goes wrong, you can see what it is and you're RIGHT! Its fun! You can do it too!

Lets say he had responded to the door and they tried to tackle him and he had managed to get free and get back inside- my God, those heavy handed police tactics CAUSED a barricade situation. Damn them!

Or, if he had responded to the door as many of us would do (armed), the LEOs refused to treat him like a gentleman and state their case before trying to latching onto him, what a bunch of jack booted thugs! He was defending himself when he shot them! Damn those SWAT Gestapos!

Or, even better, if they try to nab him in public and it goes south and he leads the cops on a car chase that ends abruptly in the middle of a school bus, they were needlessly pursuing this felon, placing us all at risk! Damn those over-zealous asses!

Or maybe he'd be carrying concealed (hey! It happens!). It could start a shootout...in public! How dare they try to arrest an armed felon at the grocery store! Thats DANGEROUS! Damn those arrogant socialist pigs!

No-knock warrant then? Well, I think we just trod down that road a week ago. You can just cut-and-paste your previous objections here: ____________________________________________________
____________________________________________________
____________________________________________________
____________________________________________________
__________________! Damn those Nazis!

Good work. See? You too can Monday morning QB with the best of them!

Mike

PS Here is a radical idea. I call it 'personal responsibility.' The 'heavy handed' actions of LEOs do not cause suspects to hole up and shoot people. The desire of the suspects to hole up and shoot people when confronted ultimately leads to the compression of the trigger. Just a thought.

(Edited to fix the Scrolling Screen of Death--Don Gwinn)
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Old September 3, 2001, 09:48 AM   #35
Don Gwinn
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Granted that hindsight is 20/20, there's a little more to this story than Monday-morning quarterbacking choice of tactics. There's the matter of what is looking more and more like a coverup. There's the fact that we are assured that the suspect had a stockpile of automatic weapons and a LAW rocket, but all that was found in the rubble was two rifles and a pistol. There's the fact that the house was allowed to burn. I know I've played devil's advocate on that, but there are serious problems with it. There's the fact that we are expected to believe the opposite of what our best evidence indicates on the word of an organization that we know has a history of lying and covering up. You saw it above. Those of you who watched live saw the authorities launch what appeared to be an incendiary weapon into a room, then observed a fire start in that room. The authorities say that's evidence that he started the fire himself, even though that means he committed painful suicide.
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Old September 3, 2001, 10:44 AM   #36
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Apprehending the Apprehensive

Coronach and LawDog have often been the voice of reason while many jump to conclusions on the minimal media released "facts".

The man is confronted by lethal force on his doorstep, worries about the fate of his dog - ATF BBQ'd? Sends or releases his significant other - bye bye baby, see you on the other side. Endangers his nice suburban neighborhood and neighbors with volumes of gunfire. Dies in a fire of questionable origin, TV audience can plainly see that firemen had the option to try to stop the fire or not. ATF is involved, guncrime is involved.

Latest media fact, officer was killed by friendly fire. Oh no, that can't be, we can tell from the angle of the hit that it came from upstairs.

The only ones who can corroborate the facts are the ones who can be damaged by certain conclusions.

These episodes send a message thruout the community. Violation of the law will not be tolerated and brave people stand ready to reek havoc on those who do not comply. As you can tell from the postings, it is not universally agreed upon on who was violating the law, but authority clearly created a "cornered rat".

Be safe LawDog and Coronach; we need you and yours so we can send our wives to the mall and our children can walk to school.

Remember also that our Constitution is a higher law that all are held to, and a cornered rat is not interested in the proper rules of evidence or debate.
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Old September 3, 2001, 08:10 PM   #37
Justin Moore
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ATF can do no wrong I feel much safer knowing they are out there helping to fight 'crime' and the epidemic of dangerous 'guns' that permeate society.....

Good lord, I sound like Reno/Clinton
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Democracy: A government of the masses, authority derived through mass meetings or any other form of direct expression; results in mobocracy; attitude toward property is communistic negating property rights; attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate whether it is based upon deliberation or governed by passion, prejudice, and impulse, without restraint or regard to consequences; its result is dem-o-gogism, license, agitation, discontent and anarchy.

Republic: Authority is derived through the election by the people of public officials best suited to represent them. Attitude toward property is respect for laws and individual rights and a sensible economic procedure. Attitude toward law is the administration of justice in accord with fixed principles that establish evidence with a strict regard for consequences. A greater number of citizens and extent of territory may be brought within its compass, it avoids the dangerous extremes of either tyranny or mobocracy. Results in statesmanship, liberty, reason, justice contentment and progress, is a standard for government around the world.
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Old September 3, 2001, 09:34 PM   #38
USP45
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Uhg...


http://www.channel2000.com/news/stor...03-130940.html

Quote:
Aftermath Of Deadly Shootout Raises Questions
Report: Officers Issuing Warrant Unprepared For Hostile Suspect
Posted: 11:41 a.m. PDT September 3, 2001
Updated: 12:21 p.m. PDT September 3, 2001

SANTA CLARITA, Calif. -- Confusion among officers involved in an armed standoff may have led to the shooting not only of the suspect but of a fellow lawman, according to a newspaper report.

The Los Angeles Times reported Sunday that an investigation into Friday's shootout with James Allen Beck has raised the question of whether Beck fired the bullet that killed Los Angeles County sheriff's Deputy Hagop "Jake" Kuredjian or whether the officer mistakenly was hit by a fellow law enforcement officer.

"I am quite sure that is something we're going to look into, because it's not clear he was shot by Beck," sheriff's Sgt. Paul Patterson told The Associated Press in an interview Sunday.

Sheriff's Lt. Carl Deeley, however, said there is "absolutely no doubt" that Kuredjian was shot and killed by Beck.

"...I will give you two of the reasons right now," Deeley told CBS2 News. "The angle of the shot where Deputy Kuredjian was hit came from above and the angle proves that the shot did come from suspect Beck and that second story of his house. And also during negotiations ... he apologized for shooting the deputy."



Watch House Go Up In Flames
Chopper2 Above Santa Clarita Standoff
ATF Official Talks About Suspect
CBS2 Recap Of Days Events
Neighbors React


The standoff began Friday morning when federal officers and sheriff's officials tried to serve a search warrant at Beck's home in an upscale section of this city 22 miles north of Los Angeles.
Autopsy results Saturday showed that Kuredjian died of a single gunshot wound to the head. He had been struck while crouching behind an SUV parked on the street four houses down from Beck, the Times reported.

Beck, a convicted felon, was alleged to have impersonated a U.S. marshal and be building a weapons cache. As authorities approached, Beck began shooting at officers from the U.S. Marshal's office and U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.

Kuredjian arrived a few minutes after the shooting started and was hit almost immediately while trying to provide gunfire as cover to fellow deputies pinned down in the fusillade, the Times reported.

The exchange of gunfire startled neighbors, especially those who saw officers firing at the wrong house.

"I hollered out the window, 'You're shooting at the wrong house!"' said one neighbor, who spoke to the Times on condition of anonymity. "They must have heard us or something, because I could hear one of the deputies say, 'Is it the house with the Explorer?' And another guy says, 'No, the one next to it."'

Homes on either side of Beck's house were riddled with bullet holes, including one where a couple and their 30-hour-old newborn cowered.

"Three bullets came through the (front) window, the master closets and into the master bathroom," said Phil Lombardi, the baby's father. He described how he, his wife and baby, took cover in a second floor bathroom.

"It was very traumatic. My wife wasn't coping with it. I was trying to comfort her with the newborn child," he said.

The total number of rounds fired was unclear and authorities would not give an estimate. "It was a very extensive gun battle. We have to wait to see what was collected at scene," sheriff's Sgt. Patterson said.

The three-hour exchange ended after tear gas projectiles were shot into Beck's house and a fire erupted. Flames quickly engulfed the home, burning it to the ground. But authorities were still unclear how the fire began.

"It's probably going to be a little more difficult, because of the extent of the fire," Patterson said. "They'll have to sift through evidence to determine how the fire was actually started."

Investigators discovered a body believed to be Beck's. But the coroner's office said an autopsy would not be conducted until Tuesday, at the earliest.

An AK-47 and AR-15, a shotgun, a .380-caliber semiautomatic pistol, handguns and ammunition were collected from the ashes.

A funeral for the slain officer will be held Tuesday
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"[Even if there would be] few tears shed if and when the Second Amendment is held to guarantee nothing more than the state National Guard, this would simply show that the Founders were right when they feared that some future generation might wish to abandon liberties that they considered essential, and so sought to protect those liberties in a Bill of Rights. We may tolerate the abridgement of property rights and the elimination of a right to bear arms; but we should not pretend that these are not reductions of rights." -- Justice Scalia 1998
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Old September 4, 2001, 01:10 AM   #39
Justin Moore
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Quote:
"I hollered out the window, 'You're shooting at the wrong house!"' said one neighbor, who spoke to the Times on condition of anonymity. "They must have heard us or something, because I could hear one of the deputies say, 'Is it the house with the Explorer?' And another guy says, 'No, the one next to it."'

Homes on either side of Beck's house were riddled with bullet holes, including one where a couple and their 30-hour-old newborn cowered.

"Three bullets came through the (front) window, the master closets and into the master bathroom," said Phil Lombardi, the baby's father. He described how he, his wife and baby, took cover in a second floor bathroom.

"It was very traumatic. My wife wasn't coping with it. I was trying to comfort her with the newborn child," he said.
Deputy Dog and his Keystone Cops

Do we really NEED the ATF?
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Democracy: A government of the masses, authority derived through mass meetings or any other form of direct expression; results in mobocracy; attitude toward property is communistic negating property rights; attitude toward law is that the will of the majority shall regulate whether it is based upon deliberation or governed by passion, prejudice, and impulse, without restraint or regard to consequences; its result is dem-o-gogism, license, agitation, discontent and anarchy.

Republic: Authority is derived through the election by the people of public officials best suited to represent them. Attitude toward property is respect for laws and individual rights and a sensible economic procedure. Attitude toward law is the administration of justice in accord with fixed principles that establish evidence with a strict regard for consequences. A greater number of citizens and extent of territory may be brought within its compass, it avoids the dangerous extremes of either tyranny or mobocracy. Results in statesmanship, liberty, reason, justice contentment and progress, is a standard for government around the world.
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