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Old August 31, 2001, 02:39 PM   #1
jimpeel
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New "Weapon of Choice" brought to bear against barracaded suspect

Police are denying that a fire started "internal to the home" was started by teargas cannisters lobbed into the home ;which then became "internal to the home". They were lobbed into a rear bedroom which, of course, has little or no flammable substances in it.

The guy shot a sheriff's deputy to death as he was trying to serve a search warrant along with ATF officers. The original warrant was for his impersonating a federal officer and "stockpiling weapons", whatever that means.

He then fired at other deputies that arrived at the scene and this elevated him to the status of "Sniper". The FOX News graphic states "SNIPER SUSPECTED OF KILLING DEPUTY BARRICADED IN CA HOME".

It seems that the latest "weapon of choice" of the JBTs is to simply burn the suspects out and if they don't come out tough s--- for them. "We got our man" regardless of the cost.

Scratch one $500,000 house.
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Last edited by jimpeel; August 31, 2001 at 04:17 PM.
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Old August 31, 2001, 04:22 PM   #2
jimpeel
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A followup question:

If the propensity of teargas cannisters to cause fires (SLA shootout, Waco, etc) is well known to the authorities;

and the deputies threw said cannisters into a bedroom window knowing full well that this danger existed;

and the insurance companies will have to pay off on the subsequent damages caused by such actuions;

Can they sue the county of Los Angeles for arson to attempt to recoup the losses to their bottom line?
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Old August 31, 2001, 10:30 PM   #3
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Tho no longer widely used, there is still quite a bit of polyester containing carpeting out there. Flashbangs, smokes, and tears can start a fire just from the carpeting.

Sam
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Old August 31, 2001, 11:42 PM   #4
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Absurd

I'm sure there is a SWAT team somewhere that might employ such a method ('burn 'em out'), but the mere idea that it might be regarded as a valid tactic by tactical teams in general is absurd.

The point is to get your guy- alive. Once you have him contained, its gravy. You sit, you wait. if it takes too long, you get paid overtime. Win-win, all around.

The LAST thing you want to do is try to force him into coming out via fire...because if he does so he will probably be doing so desperate, armed and non-incapacitated. Thats not a good combination.

Mike
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Old September 1, 2001, 12:04 AM   #5
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In the "for what it's worth" file....

Local news says the suspect is a "failed police officer", who is (was) a convicted felon.

What bothers me is: This was an ATF raid, with "local support troops". How come it's the local support gets whacked when it's an ATF raid?
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Old September 1, 2001, 12:28 AM   #6
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The guy killed one sheriffs deputy and shot at responding deputies? I won't shed any tears for his demise.
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Old September 1, 2001, 12:29 AM   #7
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Getting local authorities involved in the raid is essential in maintaining the facade of a "state law enforcement" operation. This helps deflect any criticism over pesky constitutional issues...
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Old September 1, 2001, 03:08 AM   #8
Justin Moore
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I think we should all turn in our guns (and sign over your property too) and the ATF will be much nicer to us
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Old September 1, 2001, 08:24 AM   #9
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It SOUNDS like there were no pesky constitutional issues. He had a(n) arrest warrant(s), it(they) was(were) being served. He fired on them.

And getting local support is essential for federal agencies, if for no other reason that locals need to know when the feds are going to start a fracas on their turf. It also sounds llike he had a local warrant, too, in addition to the federal one. The deputies can't serve a federal warrant- the feds can't serve a state/local one. That is proper federalism in action.

Mike
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"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein
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Old September 1, 2001, 08:30 AM   #10
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The guy killed one sheriffs deputy and shot at responding deputies? I won't shed any tears for his demise.
You are probably right, and I think it's a shame that we have to question if he was right or not in this matter, but unfortunately when the ATF gets involved and starts burning down the house and all the evidence we really have no idea, and we don't know the truth about what those deputies were there to enforce, hell, they might have not even known the truth.

Though it's not nearly the same thing, lets look at a hypothetical:

Local police get orders to load certain people into planes at the airport so they can be sent to a Federal questioning facility. So the local police do it. Later, word leaks out from one of the rare few who escaped that they are torturing and executing prisoners there. Later you come up on the list and the police come for you. Now, they don't know that they are sending you off to die, but that's what they are doing. So, given a choice, would you kill them, or would you go to your death rather than kill these ignorant pawns?

No, it's obviously not the same thing, I am aware of that, but you see my point. After Waco, can we afford not to suspect the situation of any ATF raid, especially one where they burn the suspect alive? Also, remember that SWAT fiasco recently where an officer shot another through the suspect's house? All the facts are not in, can we even be sure the officer didn't get shot by another? Can we even be sure the suspect was armed? I am awaiting more info, but for now I will not pass judgement either way.
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Old September 1, 2001, 08:54 AM   #11
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Unfortunately, Dangus, waiting for more information rarely satisfies those one either side who are hardcore about their beliefs concerning law enforcement, laws, tactics, and the rights of the people being sought by law enforcement. If the findings are that the guy in the house started the fire, people will claim it was a cover-up conspiracy because it was really caused by law enforcement (as in the Waco case). If it is found that the fire was started by the gas cannisters, there will be calls for an investigation against law enforcement for violating the rights of the guy inside and using weapons that are not appropriate. On the other side of the coin will be the folks that feel that if the guy started the fire himself, they should have just let him burn (assuming he stayed there - news I saw last night indicated they had not found his remains and they feared he had escaped). Others will probably say, what a great idea!

I think Coronach is probably right on this. Most LEOs have no interest in being in gun battles. They prepare for if they have to be in one, just like a lot of the private citizens do for their own circumstances, but private citizens don't want to be in gunfights either.
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Old September 1, 2001, 08:57 AM   #12
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Quote:
Also, remember that SWAT fiasco recently where an officer shot another through the suspect's house? All the facts are not in, can we even be sure the officer didn't get shot by another? Can we even be sure the suspect was armed? I am awaiting more info, but for now I will not pass judgement either way.
Dangus,

If you are talking about the SWAT fiasco in Lubbock, TX the officer was shot via his partner. A SWAT sniper rifle was discharged by accident and startled the other officers. Officer Cox's partner must of had his finger on the trigger of his MP5. He jumped back and shot Officer Cox in the head at about 6 feet. Bullets (2) entered just under the kevlar helmet into the forhead.

Home owner Robinson had firearms in the house but was not armed.

For everyones information, I found out that he had told the police that he will not come out of his house to talk about what happened and told the police that he had lots of guns and to not try to come after him. This little tidbit comes from a reliable source. That is why the SWAT was called in.

I had been very critical of the Lubbock Police about why a SWAT team was called in when Mr. Robinson for what ever reason was not held for breaking any laws after being cleared of killing Off. Cox. With this information I now understand why SWAT was called.
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Old September 1, 2001, 10:18 AM   #13
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From what I have read about this, the deputy tried to enter the house through a window after attempting to batter the door down. Would this be considered standard procedure? This does not seem sensible to me.
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Old September 1, 2001, 11:10 AM   #14
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Not knowing the dynamics of the situation, I can't monday-morning QB this one. I can only say that entering via a window isn't the best way to go about it...you move with EXCRUTIATING slowness through the fatal funnel.

Not the way I would want to enter a house.

Mike
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The axe bites into the door, ripping a hole in one panel. The maniac puts his face into the hole, cackling gleefully, "Here's Johnny...erk."
"And here's Smith and Wesson," murmurs Coronach, Mozambiquing six rounds of .357 into the critter at a range of three feet. -Lawdog

"True pacifism is the finest form of manliness. But if a man comes up to you and cuts your hand off, you don't just offer him the other one. Not if you want to go on playing the piano, you don't." -Sam Peckinpah

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein
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Old September 1, 2001, 11:59 AM   #15
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At least it is more straight forward this time.

No reported incidents of child molesting, incest, automatic weapon construction, polygamy or rape this time. Just a straight forward combined local and fed assault and BBQ on an "officer impersonater" and "stockpiler of firearms". And no tanks either (probably due to possible eviromental damage).

Things are looking up.

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Old September 1, 2001, 02:54 PM   #16
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Quote:
And getting local support is essential for federal agencies, if for no other reason that locals need to know when the feds are going to start a fracas on their turf.


Yeah, the ATF gives notification.... by smoke signal. -- Kernel
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Old September 1, 2001, 04:05 PM   #17
4V50 Gary
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In using tear gas, one inherent risk mentioned earlier by Coronach is the possibility of fire. Factors contributing to the fire are highly inflammable objects which the occupant has laying around. Why then does LE still use tear gas?

Because it remains the lesser of two evils. Certainly you can besiege the house, but then you risk innocent parties being hurt. Evacuation is required for a reasonable distance (depends on density of housing, type of materials used in constructing the house, walls (brick, concrete, wood) which surround the garden, personnel available. So you can storm a house, but remember that one deputy/officer is already dead. Do you want to risk losing more officers? No. Storming then may be unfeasible and awaiting to talk the guy out may well be too. Hence, LE resorts to the immediate method at hand: tear gas. The vast majority of times tear gas will work without causing permanent damage. Furthermore, most modern tear gas bombs are non-incendiary in nature. You can thank the SLA for that.
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Old September 1, 2001, 08:16 PM   #18
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Quote:
4V50 Gary:
"Furthermore, most modern tear gas bombs are non-incendiary in nature."
You're right. The vast majority of teargas bombs are either the pressuized liquid variety or the bursting powder container variety. Neither of these can start fires, period. The FBI and BATF, however, still stock the military incendary CS canisters, and use them to burn out suspects, especially when an officer is killed in the initial assault. Federal guidelines prohibit the use of these incendary CS canisters indoors, but as we found out in Waco, such federal guidelines are meaningless when federal officers in the field want the suspect dead. Federal SWAT teams are, IMHO, vigilante murders with badges. They've proved that to be true repeatedly.
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Old September 1, 2001, 08:52 PM   #19
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Regarding the Waco SWAT shootout:

>>>A SWAT sniper rifle was discharged by accident <<<

***??? Had he been in my platoon, this "Sniper's"(dripping sarcasm) suffering would have been legendary for this BS. I probably would have been relieved for assault in dealing with this fool. Everyone involved in this goat rope should be beaten and dragged though the street for their stupidity. Obviously their admin discipline is inadequate.

Same goes for the clowns at this latest ATF fire, using flamable tear gas? Jesus, even the USMC has non-flammable riot control bursting CS, and I used a bunch back in 1996! This was obviously either intentional arson, or criminal stupidity. Either way, it needs to be prosecuted. S/F..Ken M
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Old September 1, 2001, 09:38 PM   #20
Justin Moore
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I guess if you have more than 3 guns you have a 'cache of weapons' like this guy did

Impersonating a federal officer? You should be publicly ridiculed, not prosecuted That's just too funny IMO.

I wonder if the ATF told him "This is NOT an assault" like they were repeatedly heard to say at Waco "This is NOT an assault" even thou we are smashing the walls down with tanks.

But hey, Janet Reno is liberal and loving, and it was 'for the children'. Those EVIL davidian whacko's started that fire, don't ya know?
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Republic: Authority is derived through the election by the people of public officials best suited to represent them. Attitude toward property is respect for laws and individual rights and a sensible economic procedure. Attitude toward law is the administration of justice in accord with fixed principles that establish evidence with a strict regard for consequences. A greater number of citizens and extent of territory may be brought within its compass, it avoids the dangerous extremes of either tyranny or mobocracy. Results in statesmanship, liberty, reason, justice contentment and progress, is a standard for government around the world.
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Old September 1, 2001, 09:45 PM   #21
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Arsonous
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The Davidians started the fire! Beck started the fire!

Yes sir! All bad people start fires. It is very convenient!

I am not defending the Davidians or Beck but this is **** poor law enforcement. It just seems to be getting worse!
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Old September 1, 2001, 10:00 PM   #22
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We seem to be assuming things.

1. We assume that the ATF or SO was using the incendiary tear gas. Possibly they were, also possible they were not. I think we should probably wait until the fire investigators make a determination.

As to the differences between the different types of CS dispensers, I was unaware of that (not beaing a tactical team member). We use pressurized gas, period. If the federal agencies use the fire-causing kind, that is probably a policy that needs changed, but its use is likely mandated by procurement policy F10-67543-G (note for the humor-impaired, that is a made-up number), and NOT by some desire to burn guys out. As I said before, if you start a fire, one of two things happens- the guy dies (with horrid press coverage) or the guy comes out armed and desperate. Lose-lose.

2. We also seem to be assuming that this guy was a poor, innocent gun owner being bullied by the ATF. As in, if he has guns, he's a good guy. Whatever. A valid warrant was served for his arrest, he shot a deputy. Not exactly my definition of a stand-up guy.

3. We also seem to be assuming that the agencies screwed up here. I'm not at all convinced they did. I'd like the incendiary device question answered, first.

Mike
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The axe bites into the door, ripping a hole in one panel. The maniac puts his face into the hole, cackling gleefully, "Here's Johnny...erk."
"And here's Smith and Wesson," murmurs Coronach, Mozambiquing six rounds of .357 into the critter at a range of three feet. -Lawdog

"True pacifism is the finest form of manliness. But if a man comes up to you and cuts your hand off, you don't just offer him the other one. Not if you want to go on playing the piano, you don't." -Sam Peckinpah

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein
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Old September 1, 2001, 10:07 PM   #23
vitiaz
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I thought this guys name sounded familiar. Anyway I found this on another board,

>>>Date: 8/31/01 14:05

I don't know if this will eventually come out or not but the truth
is that the suspect James Beck is a former DEA agent who several yearsago was arrested by the ATF for possession of machine guns. Funny thingwas, the guy was properly licensed.

Unfortunately, he had several pre and post samples of each gun (like 25 MP5's,30 UZI's, etc). In any case, he was arrested, charged and tried.

First trial; hung jury.

Second trial;hung jury.

The feds decided to try a 3rd time so he filed lawsuit formalicious prosecution AND WON. Guess what, they tried him a 3rd timeanyway. Result, another hung jury.

Is it possible that the ATF wasgunning for this guy. Probably. The ATF spin doctors are already hardat work calling this guy a "sniper".

The fact of the matter is that when an arrest warrant is executed, it's not standard practice to havethe ATF as backup. They wanted to burn this guy out and use the fire asan excuse for the "destroyed evidence". This was a government sponsored retaliatory assasination. He didn't start the fire, the tear gas did.

Those are the facts.

>>>

Can anyone corroborate or refute this?
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Old September 1, 2001, 10:44 PM   #24
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Okay, I started this thread so it is time I put in my two cents.

First: A body has been found in the rubble and is assumed to be Mr. Beck until proven not.

Second: The cannisters used were definitely of the incendiary type not the burstiing or liquid type. There were numerous cannisters thrown at the home's upper floor windows and a couple of these bounced off streaming gas the entire time. One, which missed the room where the fire started, landed on the patio roof and continued to roll around streaming gas visibly. Another went into the room where the fire stared about three or four minutes later. It was at this time that I saw black smoke starting to appear while the talking heads on FOX were saying "you can see the teargas coming from the windows." Of course, I'm screaming at the TV that this house is on fire as evidenced by the black smoke, teargas is white, and that pieces of matter were coming from the window, probably synthetic curtain material, and landing on the patio roof. It took the presence of real flames for the talking heads to realize that the house was on fire.

Third: the time between the initial incident and the start of the fire was only about three hours. Sounds like there was a real marathon negotiation going on there. The cannisters started flying right after Sheriff Baca had a tearful news conference wherein he announced the demise of the officer that had been shot.

Fourth: When the fire department initially started putting out water, they directed the stream from the unit on the left (facing the rear of the house) directly into the rear bedroom window where the fire started. The fire was still confined to that room and had not yet burned through the roof. Within a few seconds, they redirected the stream onto the house on the left (facing the rear of the house) and that is where it was kept even after that home was no longer threatened. By whose order was that stream redirected when the fire in the rear bedroom was still, IMHO, controllable?

Fifth: So what if he was an ex-felon. There were no restrictions on ex-felons on firearm ownership prior to the GCA68. That piece of fiat legislation circumvented the Second Amendment and the Bill of Rights. In the ninteenth century the bad guys, upon exiting prison, were issued their property; which included their rig that they wore when they were apprehended. Of course, that was back in the days when the Second Amendment meant something.
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Old September 1, 2001, 11:06 PM   #25
Mr. Pub
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From the LA Daily News

Basically what this story says is that its ok to burn him out, not because he was a felon violating the law, but because he was a gun owner.

_______________________________________________

Officials let armed suspect's home burn to keep others safe


By Orith Goldberg
Staff Writer


STEVENSON RANCH -- As a two-story home in an affluent Stevenson Ranch neighborhood burned with an armed man barricaded inside Friday, police and firefighters stood by and just watched.
After an attempt to serve a warrant went horribly awry, with the suspect in the house shooting and killing a deputy sheriff, then firing a barrage of ammunition throughout the neighborhood, officers let the house burn to the ground with the suspect inside.


Flames burn through the roof of the suspect's house along Brooks Circle in Stevenson Ranch Friday (Shaun Dyer / Daily News)
Los Angeles County sheriff's Deputy David Cervantes said the commander at the scene decides on appropriate tactics when there is an armed suspect barricaded inside a house that has caught on fire. The commander must take the safety of officers and firefighters, among other factors, into consideration before deciding how to respond.

"We don't want to put more personnel ... at risk," Cervantes said.

Lewis Yablonsky, professor emeritus of criminology and sociology at California State University, Northridge, said law enforcement officials were absolutely right to keep anyone else from harm's way.

"From my point of view, it's a very clear call, especially when they approached and one sheriff's deputy was killed by this madman who was obviously out to protect his guns," Yablonsky said.

"If I were the commander of the (personnel) outside this house, I'd let it burn."

Yablonsky said police operated on the side of safety for the well-being of innocent people. "That was a logical and understandable act."

Firefighters poured water on homes adjacent to the burning house from a safe distance because the suspect was believed to have a high-powered weapon that could penetrate four to five walls easily, Cervantes said.

Firefighters did everything they could, within reason, to save the homes, officials said.

"Typically we'd send firefighters in, but in this case, we couldn't do that because of the threat of the suspect inside," said Los Angeles County Fire Inspector Mike Brown. "Our best tactic was to fight the fire from the exterior."

The blaze erupted on the second floor of the home at 11:51 a.m. Friday, hours after authorities had gone to the 26000 block of Brooks Circle to execute a search warrant at the home of 35-year-old James Allen Beck.

Brown said the Fire Department couldn't get close enough to the Beck home to battle the blaze, so concentrated efforts on the adjacent homes with a water tower that had the capacity to spew 600 to 1,000 gallons of water per minute.

Los Angeles County Fire. Capt. Brian Jordan said water was poured on the roofs of the adjacent homes in a heavy stream from ladders at least 100 feet away in an attempt to keep them from catching fire.

The effort was successful, but firefighters were still assessing the adjacent homes for possible water damage, Jordan said.

Los Angeles Fire Department officials agreed with the county department's tactics.

"Until the scene is secured, you don't go in there," said LAFD spokesman Bob Collis. "You're not going to put a bunch of firemen in jeopardy to save a house.

"It's all up to the police. They're on the scene and in charge, and you do what they say."

Simi Valley police Sgt. Bob Gardner said the last thing authorities want to see is another innocent person's life taken.

"The bottom line is, you're not going to do anything unsafe," Gardner said. "What is safe is going to dictate what they do."
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