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Old August 22, 2001, 04:06 PM   #1
DougB
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HK USP Compact in 10mm (or conversion?)

I've wanted a relatively light, compact, corrosion-resistant 10mm for use as a general outdoor (hiking/fishing/canoeing) gun. It seems to me that the USP Compact .45ACP might be convertible to 10mm (or, better yet, HK could just come out with a factory 10mm version). I think this would be nearly perfect for me. It is frustrating that the only double-action 10mm semi-auto pistols available are Glocks (which I don't care for) and the EAA Witness (and the compact, polymer-framed Witness doesn't come in 10mm).

I think if HK made a compact USP in 10mm, with a hammer that could be thumb cocked and a 10-round magazine, it would sell pretty well. It seems like quite a few people like the 10mm cartridge, in spite of the low number of handguns chambered for it. I find it frustrating that all the manufacturers seem to chase the same market - I'd guess that the market for 10mm pistols is maybe 10% of the market for .45s, but if someone (like HK) would make one, they could capture a huge chunk of this market (maybe 50-70% I'd guess), rather than just getting another small sliver of the .45 market (because of the competition). I've got to hand it to Glock on this - they continue to offer 10mm pistols and probably have 80% of the 10mm market to themselves.

Would anyone else like a 10mm USP? Would a conversion be possible?

Doug
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Old August 22, 2001, 05:07 PM   #2
jtduncan
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My Glock 20 is just fine.
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Old August 22, 2001, 05:35 PM   #3
Redlg155
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Why not just get a barrel chambered for .400 Corbon?

http://www.barsto.com/HK.html

Barsto has them for a reasonable price and they make them in standard or 5.5" lengths.

A 135gr JHP at 1450 fps or 165gr at 1300 fps is nothing to sneeze at!

I think the problems with "true" 10mm conversion kit would be convincing a barrel manufacturer that it would be financially feasible to produce those barrels and having someone able to modify .45 mags to feed 10mm reliably. You could get someone to produce mags for the 10mm to avoid modifications, but I believe HK keeps a very tight reign on their magazines. It keeps their prices high and their purses fat. Glock makes em all day for $20 retail. HK can't seem to make them for half that amount!

You could always start an Email or letter writing campaign and send letters to HK in support of a 10mm model. Money makes them happy and if they see enough support, they will definitely make one.

Good Shooting
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Old August 23, 2001, 02:09 AM   #4
DougB
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I was actually fishing here to see if others would be interested in this. If this string gets a lot of favorable responses, I probably will forward it to HK and try to convince them that there would be money in this. It just doesn't seem like it would cost that much for them to offer a 10mm version - and I think they would sell a significant number of pistols. I think there are a lot of people who like the 10mm cartridge, but aren't too excited about the handguns currently available. I don't think it will be "the next big thing" but I think it could be reasonably profitable for the few handgun manufacturers that choose to meet the demand.

Doug
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Old August 23, 2001, 05:56 AM   #5
AndABeer
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I am not a USP fan but if they offered one in 10 I'd HAVE to buy it. I won't hold my breath though.

Same goes for the SIG 220ST in 10.
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Old August 23, 2001, 10:29 AM   #6
viesczy
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You can sign me up for a HK USPc in 10mm also. I'd like mine with bar/dot night sights please.

That 45 to 400 Corbon is an idea to consider also.

I converted my Para Ordnance P12 to 400 CB and I have been pleased with the results, but the lower pressured 400 CB loses more in velocity then the 10mm from shorter tubes (comparing my G29 to my P12 in 400 CB and a friends G30 in 400 CB).

In like loads (135 to 135 from CorBon), the 10mm was an average of 65fps faster (1345fps to 1280fps). Is that a big deal? I don't think a BG will giggle maniacly and continue his attack if he's blasted by the "slower" round!

Figure both loads are generating about 500ft/lbs+. With accurate shooting, either load should see us through the day. If not, it is not your day!

Now the only true advantage, IMO, is the capaicty increase that the 10mm offers-10 rounds vs 8 rounds.

So sign me up for the HK USPc duo-tone in 10mm!

Derek
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Old August 23, 2001, 11:48 AM   #7
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I'm totally with andabeer...

a 10mm USP and a 10mm 220st? Wicked. Truely wicked.
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Old August 23, 2001, 12:46 PM   #8
jtduncan
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First, the 400 Corbon, Pi's creation is dead. That bottlenecked design is stale and proprietary.
As a reloader, why would I pay those kind of monies when I could shoot 41 mag, 44 mag, 45Super, 450 SMC, 40Super, or 454 Causall.

These conversions to 10mm and big bore calibers are nice ideas but not sound engineering or smart economically.

And I'm with you, I'd love an HKP7 in 10mm the size of a P7M13 frame.

And Sig just isn't into big bore calibers other than introducing the 357 sig round with really just a 9mm +P++ round.

And Para needs to focus on 1911 designs and the Colt Delta Elite is already the established 1911 for 10mm shooters. And SW already makes the 610, the only revolver in 10mm.

BUT the real problem is own of market opportunity and engineering reality . . .

The slides, frames, and spring assemblies are going to be a good 30 percent UNDER engineered for the great pressures and slide velocities of the stouter 10mm loads.

And you're going to have to get Wolff or ISMI to make stronger recoil springs/rods and man are they stingy. It took them two years to start making reduced power recoil springs for my Glock 30 which many Glock shooters compete with.

HK, Sig, and Para just can't see the money in 10mm conversions. With the Glock 20 full sized, Glock 29 subcompact, the Colt Delta Elite, and the EAA Witness line with full and compact sized 10mm steel and polymer framed guns, the 10mm market is saturated with semi auto's.

And there are still some great deals on Star Megastars in 10mm around too. $400 used with a pair of factory hi caps and the Megastars make Rugers look underengineered. They are real tanks like Desert Eagles.

The 10mm round is too much for a gun for conversion kitting. Kind of like the 45Super crowd. Cool idea but why. Just shoot 10mm, 41 mag or 44 mag.

If you really want to shoot 10mm, you'll have to buy one of the above guns and reload.:

Other than mail order from Georgia Arms, just try buying a case of 10mm ammo at your local dealer and not pay $250 plus on the deal. I've seen guys paying $18-25 for a box of 10mm!

BTW - 10mm can reloaded at the same cost as 40SW BTW. Premium bullets (135-220 grainers) and powders tailored to your application - target, hunting, plinking, competitions, bullseye, or steel plates - for about $95 a case of 1,000 rounds. Add another $10 for jacketed bullets.

The 10mm is great cartidge but you're not going to get into that cheaply.

Buy a Glock 20 and you can get conversion barrels for $75 each to shoot 10mm, .357 SIG, and 40SW out of one gun. It's the best 10mm semi auto made.
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Old August 23, 2001, 02:18 PM   #9
DougB
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Per jtduncan: "HK, Sig, and Para just can't see the money in 10mm conversions. With the Glock 20 full sized, Glock 29 subcompact, the Colt Delta Elite, and the EAA Witness line with full and compact sized 10mm steel and polymer framed guns, the 10mm market is saturated with semi auto's."

You've just named about EVERY 10mm semi-auto currently available (3 designs - with maybe a couple of variations of each). I don't think I'd call that "saturated" - there must be 30 times that number of .45 pistols available. Certainly if you are a Glock fan (which I take it you are) then you are well-served. But for someone who doesn't care for Glocks or single-action autos, the pickings are pretty slim. I could find an old (out of production) S&W (big, heavy, low capacity, not a great design), or an EAA Witness (so-so reputation, don't make the polymer framed guns in 10mm). If the EAAs were approved for sale in California, I'd probably try one, but they aren't. And I would much rather have a lighter, smaller, traditional DA 11-shot 10mm.

I don't know about the engineering - maybe that's the catch - but it seems like if Glock's .45 and 10mm share the same frame, slide, etc., then other decent .45s would be candidates for this cartridge. But maybe not (EAA told me their polymer frame wasn't up to handling the 10mm - although they do offer a .45ACP version).

Thanks for all the info. I'm not familiar with the Star pistol you mentioned - I'll have to check it out. But I'd still sure like to see a 10mm USPc.

Doug
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Old August 23, 2001, 04:19 PM   #10
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DougB:

The Glock 21 is designed off of the Glock 20's 10mm platform. Just like the megastar. 10mm to 45 ACP - no problem.

That's the trouble with low to medium pressure to 10mm covnersions.

I'd like to see more 10mm's too but the ammo manufacturers just aren't behind the move.

Like in the .357 Sig round's development, Sig and Glock backed the cartridge to the ammo manufacturers to form a support base. If guns were chambered for the round and law enforcment wanted it, Sig would make it.

Well, with the 10mm round, too many people remember the 200 grain Norma round that caused many FBI agent candidtaes to fail their firearms qualifications. And the round at its hotter end does take an experienced shooter to handle the recoil. Law enforcement agencies just want the 40SW. so it's preferred.

But you may want to check out EAA again. Seems like a lot of 10mm shooters are very happy with their 10mm's.
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Old August 23, 2001, 04:24 PM   #11
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I had a Star Megastar in 45 ACP and it was the most well built gun I've ever owned.

but like a dummy, I thought I couldn't hold onto it and rolled it for my Glock 30. Should have kept it.

But the Megastar in 10mm comes factory with a pair of 15 round mags. They didn't make 10 rounders at all. So the MS should have two 15 rounders if I have my hi cap number right.

It was just before the Glock polymer lighter is better wave and didn't catch on. It weighs like 50 ounces, is massive in size, built sturdier than a Ruger, and was just as accurate as any tuned 1911. Had 1911 style controls. And was the beefiest gun out there next to a Desert Eagle.

I just got bit by the Glock bug and dumped it.
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Old August 23, 2001, 04:33 PM   #12
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I shot a converted .40 HK USP in 10mm. It seemed ok I guess but nothings special. I've also shot the Delta Elite and Glock 20 (I own those). I think you need to just get a factory 10mm.

Unless you got a wild lust. I think the guy who let me shoot his had the original barell reemed out to 10mm lenght in the chamber.
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Old August 24, 2001, 12:05 AM   #13
ohen cepel
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I would love to see a 10rd USP in 10mm!

I have a Glock 20 and love it. However, it is rather large for social carry, especially with the extended barrel.

With the mag ban I think more makers really need to size their weapons back to a 10rd gun. I know the cops won't want it but in a few years I will be real reluctant to buy the new whatever that is sized for 15 rounds but that I can't get mags for.
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Old August 24, 2001, 11:17 AM   #14
jtduncan
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The Glock 29 is the Glock CCW subcompact in 10mm. Same size as a Glock 30. Great self defense and woods carry, camping gun.:

I have the Glock 30 and it's in my daily carry arsenal right now. If I would have gotten into 10mm beofre I snagged the G30, I'd have a G29 right now.

The G29 recoils just a tad more than the G30 with self defense ammo.

Both the G29/30 are almost the same size as a Glock 19, just a tad thicker.

The G29 is very concealable with a 9-round magazine. Great for CCW. 24.69 ounces without the magazine.

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Old August 24, 2001, 11:49 PM   #15
Alaska Roy
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jtduncan?? Glock Shortie??

jt, do you have any graph specs for the short barreled Glock 10mm?? Thanks, Roy
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Old August 25, 2001, 12:57 PM   #16
jtduncan
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Glock 29

Action: Semiautomatic
Caliber:
10mm Auto

Length:
6.77 in.
Height including magazine:
4.45 in.
Width:
1.27 in.
Length between sights:
5.95 in.
Barrel length:
3.78 in.
Barrel profile:
Hexagonal profile w/
right hand twist
Length of twist:
9.84 in.
Magazine capacity:
10+1 rounds

Mass (weight):
24.69 oz. (Without magazine)

Muzzle velocity *:
~1230 fps
Muzzle energy *:
~575 Ft. Lbs.
Trigger pull:
~5-8 lbs.
Trigger Slack travel (taking up
tension and releasing safety):
0.2 in.
Trigger travel to discharge:
0.5 in.
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Old August 25, 2001, 10:30 PM   #17
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WHAT?

No one ever hear of STI?
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