The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: General

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 14, 2001, 02:13 AM   #1
Lennyjoe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 28, 2001
Location: Sunny Tucson Arizona
Posts: 1,148
454 Casull rifles?

Heres one for ya, Why hasn't anyone designed a rifle for the 454 Casull round? Seems like Marlin would toy with this round. Maybe it wouldnt perform as well in a rifle as compared to a pistol. Whats your imputs? Just curious.
Lennyjoe is offline  
Old August 14, 2001, 06:44 AM   #2
Schmit
Staff Alumnus
 
Join Date: March 11, 1999
Location: Masquito infested flatlands of Mid-FL
Posts: 1,857
Lenny,

Shortly after I got my Casull I went to Jim West of Wild West Guns (maker of the Co-Pilot) and inquired about this very thing.

Most people who want a rifle want a lever action. Due to the pressure levels the .454 generates neither the Marlin nor a Winchester has the locking strength to handle it.

It has been done (.454 Marlin), people have converted them, but as Jim said he wouldn't do it... "The gun is going to blow, might be the first round may be the 200th, but it is going to blow".

That was enough for me. Guess you could do it up in a bolt gun but there are better cartridges for that.
__________________
Schmit
GySgt, USMC(Ret)

"Notoriety is fleeting,
Anonymity is forever!"
Schmit is offline  
Old August 14, 2001, 11:40 AM   #3
Robert the41MagFan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 1999
Posts: 1,233
Schmit is correct. Pressure levels of a .454 Casull are too high for a modern Marlin or Winchester action. Both those actions can handle pressure levels in the 45000 CUP neighborhood. The .454 Casull produces pressures as high as 65000 CUP and by the time the bullet exits the barrel, that pressure can increase as high as 100000 CUP. Definitely not a cartridge for a lever gun. And beside, better performance can be achieved with 45-70 Gov and 450 Marlin cartridges. I've got a Browning High Wall rifle chambered in .454 Casull, so they do exist (had to get one after the last time we had this conversation). Mine is too pretty of a gun and don't believe that it will ever see a rifle range.

Robert
Robert the41MagFan is offline  
Old August 14, 2001, 10:34 PM   #4
Spectre
Staff Alumnus
 
Join Date: October 23, 1998
Location: DC
Posts: 3,274
There was a recent thread about converting revolvers to carbines. A pic was shown...this would be the way to go. (IMO)
Spectre is offline  
Old August 15, 2001, 02:32 AM   #5
Robert the41MagFan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 1999
Posts: 1,233
I believe that if you put a shoulder stock on a revolver and the barrel length is less than 16 inches, it has to be registered as a short barreled rifle. Two hundred dollar tax and may not be legal in all fifty states.

Robert
Robert the41MagFan is offline  
Old August 15, 2001, 09:44 PM   #6
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 18,349
Well, if you want a .45 caliber lever rifle, go with the 45-70 or the 450 Marlin.

Both will outperform the .454 Casull (in a rifle) with lower chamber pressures due to their larger case capacity.
JohnKSa is offline  
Old December 30, 2005, 03:22 PM   #7
leveractionfan
Member
 
Join Date: December 30, 2005
Posts: 17
.454 casull rifle

So, when I was at the gun shop this week, I did so happen to see a lever action rifle that also took .45 long colt. I do not remember who makes it at this time but I will get the model and make and be back. SO... there is a rifle that takes .454 casull rounds.
leveractionfan is offline  
Old December 30, 2005, 03:27 PM   #8
azredhawk44
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2005
Location: Mesa, AZ
Posts: 6,465
I think it's called a Puma.
azredhawk44 is offline  
Old December 30, 2005, 03:47 PM   #9
Wildalaska
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2002
Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 14,174
No its called the Model 04

Ill eventually be doing a post about the trials and tribulations of building 454/500 S&W lever guns...suffice it to say, after shooting the Puma and taking it apart...its your life

WildlevernutAlaska
Wildalaska is offline  
Old December 30, 2005, 04:58 PM   #10
FirstFreedom
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 31, 2004
Location: The Toll Road State, U.S.A.
Posts: 12,451
Can you expand on that Wild please? That does not suffice to say, as I'm not sure exactly what you mean and why, although I take it you're saying you wouldn't shoot one again? I'd appreciate the help, as I was planning to get a Puma M92 in .454.
FirstFreedom is offline  
Old December 30, 2005, 05:07 PM   #11
Wildalaska
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2002
Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 14,174
We took a used Puma 454, shot it several time and took varioous measurments during those test....

Suffice it to say, the locking surfaces were not holding the tolerances that would make me as a shooter feel comfortable.

WildletsnoteventalkaboutproofloadsAlaska
Wildalaska is offline  
Old December 30, 2005, 05:26 PM   #12
FirstFreedom
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 31, 2004
Location: The Toll Road State, U.S.A.
Posts: 12,451
Hmm, I'll mail you a long string to attach to the trigger for running the proof loads, k?

wildguineapigalaska
FirstFreedom is offline  
Old December 30, 2005, 06:17 PM   #13
SavageSniper
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2005
Location: Crawfordville, FL
Posts: 494
youguysreallycrackmeup
__________________
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights!
SavageSniper is offline  
Old December 30, 2005, 07:46 PM   #14
TennesseeMedic
Member
 
Join Date: August 8, 2005
Location: Tennessee.
Posts: 91
I have a Puma lever gun in .454 Casull

Hey Guys,

I purchased a Legacy Sports Puma in .454 Casull last year. Its built on the Winchester model 94 patent. I'm a big fan of the big bore rifles, I already had a .45-70, .444 Marlin and a .450 Marlin and I wanted to add the Puma as well. I purchased the rifle from a local dealer brand new for just under $450.00. I've hunted with it alot and put many rounds down range and I have to say its a very nice rifle with surprising accuracy. Check out www.legacysports.com and give it a look see. I wouldn't take a dime for mine.

Doc
__________________
"If there must be trouble let it be in my day, that my child may have peace." Thomas Paine
"When you see a rattle snake poised to strike, you do not wait until he has struck before you crush him." Franklin D. Roosevelt :cool
TennesseeMedic is offline  
Old December 30, 2005, 08:13 PM   #15
leveractionfan
Member
 
Join Date: December 30, 2005
Posts: 17
So, the lever action rifle made by Legacy Sports International cannot handle the tolerances that a .454 casull puts out? Are there any other lever action guns that take the .454 casull?
leveractionfan is offline  
Old December 30, 2005, 08:46 PM   #16
FirstFreedom
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 31, 2004
Location: The Toll Road State, U.S.A.
Posts: 12,451
Oh it can take it alright - that's what it's designed to do. The question is, for how many rounds can it take it before it shakes, rattles, and rolls itself apart such that a catastrophic failure occurs, which can be hard on your head, hands, and other body parts. What Wild is saying is that he measured some tolerances in the bolt & chamber areas, and found that they changed (stretched) after shooting some rounds. And more than he would have anticiopated (more than they should), and therefore he doesn't trust the gun to not blow up on him at *some point*. Hard to say when that point might be (maybe NEVER). But the man knows guns, so you gotta listen closely to what he says. Just wish he would elucidate/expand on that testing, rathing than 'sufficing it to say', as he is fond of doing. Of course, his guns are competitors to the other mentioned guns, so you gotta take what he says in that light, correct WA? The M92s are made in Argentina I believe, and imported by LSI. They are a copy of the Winchester 1892 design.
FirstFreedom is offline  
Old December 30, 2005, 09:46 PM   #17
leveractionfan
Member
 
Join Date: December 30, 2005
Posts: 17
Ok, for money spent and for reliability, would a standard lever action rifle that takes a .45 long colt be more reliable than the Puma? I'm trying to figure out if I want to buy the Puma, a lever action that takes standard .45 long colt, or a standard .30-30. Thus far I have been leaning more toward the .454 casull but if the Puma has a chance of basicaly blowing up I'm going to start leaning back toward the standard .45 long colt lever actions.
leveractionfan is offline  
Old December 31, 2005, 01:25 AM   #18
Crosshair
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 16, 2004
Location: Grand Forks, ND
Posts: 5,320
Looks like it is time to bring back the Savage 99 or the Winchester 88. Both can handle .308 so they should be able to be made to handle the .454. (Or is my logic flawed.)
__________________
I don't carry a gun to go looking for trouble, I carry a gun in case trouble finds me.
Crosshair is offline  
Old December 31, 2005, 09:45 AM   #19
cma g21
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 2, 2001
Location: Florida
Posts: 134
Quote:
I purchased a Legacy Sports Puma in .454 Casull last year. Its built on the Winchester model 94 patent.
I also have one, but I've never fired it with full power .454 loads, just mid-range .454s or heavy .45 Colts.

BTW: The Puma (made by Rossi and imported by Legasy, and at least one other company) is based on the Winchester '92 (not the '94).
cma g21 is offline  
Old December 31, 2005, 09:49 AM   #20
cma g21
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 2, 2001
Location: Florida
Posts: 134
You might also want to check out:

http://www.gunblast.com/Paco_Legacy_454.htm
cma g21 is offline  
Old December 31, 2005, 11:03 AM   #21
gak
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 28, 2005
Location: Aridzona
Posts: 2,767
What Paco in the Gunblast article doesn't mention (that I recall) is that the ..454 Legacy (Rossi) also has an appropriately beefed-up 92 action...it is not exactly the same as the .45s, .44s, 357s, etc. - as strong as those actions are, the .454 called for even more. Also, this is bugging me -- and even Paco has fallen into the misinformed pit -- Legacies ARE Rossis. He speaks as if Legacy is the manufacturer. They are also but one of the current importers of the Rossi 92s, the others being Navy Arms and EMF. Of these, I believe, the Navy Arms utilize genuine American walnut though the EMFs also seem "nicer" than the standard "Rossiwood" of yore, and both use a nicer full "buckhorn" rear sight vs the cheaper looking notch type. (Legacy I believes offers the buckhorn as an option on its long rifles). It is true (or appears to be) that Legacy (LSI) has a special or unique relationship with Rossi the others perhaps do not - as is witnessed by their unique (I am not aware of the "other" Rossi .454 importer mentioned...doesn't mean it doesn't exist though) ...co-development (?) of the .454 application with Rossi. Other than that, the focus of users on TFL on Legacy baffles me - as the LSI 92s employ a unique-to-Legacy little flip lever safety I don't care for at all--and I know of few that do. You'll see "no ugly safeties" or some such wording in competitor EMF 92-distributor ads in Gunbroker or Gunsamerica ads-I agree with entirely. Other than the lack of a .454 offering - unless something has changed I don't know of - it's EMF or Navy Arms all the way with me...truly the more authentic and nicer Rossis being offered now.
gak is offline  
Old December 31, 2005, 09:05 PM   #22
tulsamal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 25, 2004
Location: Vinita, OK
Posts: 2,466
Quote:
Thus far I have been leaning more toward the .454 casull but if the Puma has a chance of basicaly blowing up I'm going to start leaning back toward the standard .45 long colt lever actions.
It sure doesn't sound like the Rossi in Paco's review had problems. He fired a bunch of heavy loads in it. More than I would probably fire in my entire ownership of such a rifle. Just having a rifle that can fire something "in the middle" between .45 Colt and .454 seems useful. Knowing it can fire something truly powerful in a special circumstance is a bonus.

Quote:
It was discovered when smokeless powder was introduced to the public, how strong these designs really were. As steel became better and better, stronger and more resistive to pressure, the 92 became an eventual mini-powerhouse. In the late 1970s a company called Rossi, had been reproducing the 1892 designs in many calibers and for a number of cartridges...like the .357 magnum and the 44 magnum. And for Christmas 1998 my wife bought me a Rossi rifle model ‘92 in 45 Colt, with a 24 inch barrel. Which I have been running 50,000 psi pressures in ever since. Nary a problem except one....the loading tube kept cutting the retaining screw off at the muzzle from recoil generated by the heavy loads.

I guess I am big enough to admit that I didn’t think the 92 design would take the 62,000 psi+ pressures of the Freedom Arms/Casull 454 cartridge over a sustained amount of shooting at that pressure. And I have stated that many times in print.

But so far my Legacy Puma 454 is still tight after 500+ rounds of 60 to 65,000 psi pressures, and another 250 rounds of my heavy handloads. This 92 is a little different than the others Rossi used to manufacture, now Legacy. The biggest change is what they did to the loading tube. No more screw cutting! Like the 22RF rifles that have a loading tube that has a spring rod that goes over the cartridges into the tube to give the rounds tension, so the cartridges will cycle, a scaled up version of this is on the new 454 Legacy. It opens at the muzzle with a twist and the rod is withdrawn to the loading port cut into the tube itself, so you can just drop the rounds in. I was able to get 10 .45 long Colt rounds in the tube and still close it, and it allowed nine .454 rounds. But short of getting into a war, nine rounds is certainly enough.
tulsamal is offline  
Old January 2, 2006, 04:27 PM   #23
FirstFreedom
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 31, 2004
Location: The Toll Road State, U.S.A.
Posts: 12,451
another interesting tidbit from that link:

Quote:
After all the shooting over a week and a half, we re-measured the locking lug mortises in the bolt with a 10,000ths digital capability readout, and it was absolutely the same, as with the lugs themselves.
So he's getting significantly different results than WA.
FirstFreedom is offline  
Old January 2, 2006, 04:49 PM   #24
Wildalaska
Junior member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2002
Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska
Posts: 14,174
reckon his meausrements are different. Who knows...I wouldnt buy one or shoot one myslef, but hey, Im not in the writing/publicity biz

WildsimplephysicsAlaska
Wildalaska is offline  
Old January 2, 2006, 04:53 PM   #25
FirstFreedom
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 31, 2004
Location: The Toll Road State, U.S.A.
Posts: 12,451
Wait a sec. You said you DID shoot one...do you mean you wouldn't shoot one again, knowing what you know now?
FirstFreedom is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:32 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12825 seconds with 7 queries