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Old August 16, 2001, 09:02 PM   #26
Spectre
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Heh. My favorite close-in move is a knee strike to the thigh. Smarts, don't it?
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Old August 17, 2001, 10:39 AM   #27
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I would go with Hapkido. From what I've seen it's far more street oriented. Besides, in akido, you have to wear a dress.
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Old August 17, 2001, 11:33 AM   #28
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hmmm...street oriented? isn't what steven segal do full speed aikido? i don't think i would laugh at his "dress"

i'm not talking about his movie fight scenes. segal, like norris and lee, really can do those things in real life,
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Old August 17, 2001, 01:35 PM   #29
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"hmmm...street oriented? isn't what steven segal do full speed aikido? i don't think i would laugh at his "dress" "
--------------------------------

Being a big Steven Segal fan, I would have to say that someone with Segal's ability and knowledge would flatten your average Joe on the street. The thing about Aikido, which has left me with little motivation to learn the form, is that it's 98% defense oriented. There are very few offensive strikes and none of them, to my knowledge, lead to offensive combinations. This would make it very hard to initiate contact both, in the ring, and on the street. Also, Aikido, much like Tai Chi, is a glorified form of meditation emphasizing movement. Both are very beautiful art forms with graceful movements.
--------------------------------
"BTW, my favorite kicking technique is now the shin kick to the nerves on the major thigh. I taught this to my petite wife and anyone who gets hit by her once have trouble walking right for a while. Imagine what a full-size man can do with that!

Skorzeny"
--------------------------------

Yeah, I showed my Mom a few combos. Her favorite is: grab the shirt, right push kick to the groin, come up with the right knee to the face. With my Mom and my girlfriend I emphasized push kicks because they don't require a lot of skill, they're powerful and they can be done at close range.

I prefer close-range strikes. Round kicks are great for the ring and sparring, but in street brawls they can leave you uncovered and a bit off balance. They don't link well with combos and will serve you better as single strikes or combo finishers. Knees are my favorite. The logic is simple, you can't breathe, you can't fight. There are a lot of people who don't have any idea what to do when someone's that close to them. And they have little time to think about it when an array of knees, elbows, hooks, uppercuts and head-butts are being thrown at them. That's when you target the legs with round kicks and push kicks to the inner thigh.

Anyway, to answer the question, I think you'll have more fun with Hapkido. If you're interested in competition, there will probably be events other than ring fighting to participate in(weapons, kata, etc.). But, again, I have no experience in either form, so I'm making an assumption.
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Old August 17, 2001, 05:16 PM   #30
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Adrenaline Junky:

I hate to burst your bubbles, but Steven Seagal lives in a fantasy land of his own.

He was choked to complete unconsciousness by Gene "Judo" Lebell (who is over 60 years old) on a movie set. Seagal was rough handling the extras and stuntmen, who asked Lebell to talk to Seagal about it.

Lebell said something to the effect to Seagal that it is easy to throw around people who won't hit back. Seagal then told Lebell that he can get out of any holds. Lebell made a motion of choking him and Seagal grabbed Lebell's groin. Smiling, Lebell said something to the effect of "are we just playing or doing it for real?"

Seagal said "for real" at which point Lebell put him in a choke hold and poor Seagal passed out and relieved himself at the same time.

Afterwards, he fired everyone on the set and promised to sue anyone who divulged the whole sordid story. It got out though and has been verified by several who were there. Real tough guy, isn't he?

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Old August 17, 2001, 07:27 PM   #31
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Okay...

Notice I used the phrase "flatten the average joe." Meaning that anyone who's skilled in any fighting art form is likely to be able to beat Joe-Shmo who's walking down the street starting shiit. I am a fan of Segal's movies and have no personal knowledge of his off camera behavior. The fact that Segal, or any movie star, for that matter, is a total dickk in real life, in no way effects the fact that I like his movies. Movie stars aren't movie stars because they're the nicest people on the planet. And I think it's cool that someone taught Segal a lesson. The fact that he's an actor does't make him better than anyone else. When people act like assses, they need to be called on it. As far as "bursting my bubble" goes, Christ, I wasn't suggesting Segal was God. I was saying I like to sit down with a bag of popcorn and a soda and watch his flicks.

BTW, tell your wife that round kicks and push kicks just below the knee are brutally painful and very effective when it comes time to defend yourself from someone bigger. That is, if she doesn't already know, sounds like she's got some experience.

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Old August 20, 2001, 10:04 AM   #32
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Well, if Segal wears a dress, thren I'm going to quite watching that sissy boy.

While aikido can be highly effective, it depends on the "bad guy" to over commit his body weight and leave his "tools" hanging out there for you to grab them.

Experienced street fighters aren't going to do this.
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Old August 20, 2001, 01:52 PM   #33
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Although a student of Shotokan, I like to cross pollinate with other styles and arts (Something, by the way, which is encouraged by my Sensei, who'll frequently invite other Sensei and their students to our Dojo, both to teach and to mix it up). When I travel anywhere for more than a week, there's always a Gi in my suit case.
About 10 yrs. back, on a 3 mos. trip, I wound up training at a Tang Soo Do Dojang in Frederick, Md. I also got to compete in 2 tournaments while there. From what I could see and was told, Korean styles (Mainly TKD) were overwhelmingly dominant in this area. In spite of what I had for yrs. been hearing from other Japanese stylists, I came away impressed by both the skill and fighting spirit I saw among these Korean stylists. The only basic differences I saw were a tendency (And not very marked) towards higher kicks or spinning ones, and that they were more disciplined about not making contact.
This brings me to my questions, and I don't mean to challenge anybody by it. From what I keep reading here, Korean styles aren't all that well thought of as real fighting arts. This flies so hard in the face of what I experienced then that I have to ask: Why this poor opinion? Is it that Korean arts have degenerated so badly in the last 10 yrs., or is it that better Korean "Karate" is taught in Maryland? What do you disgusted former TKD people think?
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Old August 20, 2001, 02:10 PM   #34
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I don't think that there is anything wrong with Korean martial arts. However, the blemish on its reputation comes from some overly commercial schools (known in the trade as "Take One's Dough") that have cheapened/diluted Korean martial arts for the purpose of making a buck. There are plenty of serious Korean martial arts practitioners who can whoop some real backside. I'm sure that the "get your black belt in twelve easy lessons" places absolutely enrage them.
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Old August 20, 2001, 05:15 PM   #35
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swsurgeon:

Most Korean styles suffer a HUGE credibility gap with me for the reason that they completely FABRICATE the history of their arts.

Many Korean schools do not even admit to the Japanese origin of most of their "native" styles (like Tae Kwon Do, Yudo, Tang Soo Do, Hapkido, Hwa Rang Do, ad naseum, ad infinitum...).

On top of that, many Korean styles altered their systems to make them "less Japanese" resulting in a lot of superfulous and, quite frankly, ridiculous techniques (like running jumping sidekick) being added.

I have no doubt that there are some tough folks in the Korean martial arts scene, but not necessarily because of their systems.

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Old August 24, 2001, 07:14 PM   #36
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Hi Skorzeny

Hi Skorzeny,
Didn't know too many people knew about Gene LeBell making Segal do the "chicken." Know a guy that was on the set when that happened and Segal did fire the folks who witnessed him "doing the chicken."
From what I heard, he promised that he wasn't going to "fire" anyone if he couldn't get out of the hold. Guess he wasn't telling the truth.

Know a Kempo studio operator who Segal dropped in on and challenged him. Friend, out of respect, declined....Segal stooped to name calling.
Understood it took 15 seconds to drop Segal, then put him in a hold to knock him out.

Go figure. Know the people involved....they have nothing to prove and they are quite competent.

Good to see that you travel in similar circles.
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Old August 24, 2001, 08:06 PM   #37
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Spectre arsenal

Hi Spectre,
Know what you mean about that knee strike... guys hate it because of the Charley horse that stays a while.
If you don't already use it, it works great when someone tries a roundhouse type kick at your groin or kidney area...just aim that knee strike without too much power at the striking leg.

I don't know if you've seen the video that some people have been attaching to their E-mails, but I saw one where this guy in the ring throws out a slap kick to his opponent and his opponent counters with a knee strike to the kicking leg....it still makes me queasy, but you see the shin break of the kicker and his leg goes off in two different directions.

Yuccchhh!, Haven't used it hard enough to break someone's leg, but I have certainly dropped guys in fights with that counter strike. Usually end of fight for that opponent at that time. Hope you don't have to use it, but keep it in mind.

Take care and Viceroy 808 said to say hi! He's still in the service, climbing up the ladder.
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Old August 24, 2001, 10:06 PM   #38
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"I don't know if you've seen the video that some people have been attaching to their E-mails, but I saw one where this guy in the ring throws out a slap kick to his opponent and his opponent counters with a knee strike to the kicking leg"

Muay Thai 101:

That was a roundhouse kick that was blocked, not a "knee strike" or "slap kick".
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Old August 25, 2001, 01:46 AM   #39
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if I throw a punch to a BG throat and then slap his nose back with
a open palm HARD , then punch chest, and straight hand hit side
of neck, WHAT KIND of martial arts could this be ?
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Old August 25, 2001, 02:05 AM   #40
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That would be a percussive, or 'hard' style. As opposed to a grappling, or 'soft' style.

As far as identifying the exact martial style by the combination -- that's really not possible, it could belong to any of the percussive styles or all of the combatives styles.

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Old August 25, 2001, 08:52 AM   #41
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TKD

Guys,

Be aware that there are TWO distinct schools of Tae Kwon Do out there. What almost everyone knows about today is the World TaeKwon-Do Federation (***). The other is the Interntional TaeKwon-Do Federation (ITF). The reason for the existance of two major camps is strictly political, but why "most serious martial artists" look down on TKD is because of the changes made to the systems by the *** in order to gain acceptance as an Olympic "sport".

The ITF was founded and is still led by the man known as the
"father" of TKD: General Choi, Hong Hi. General Choi coined the phrase "Tae Kwon Do' (literally "hand and foot art") to describe a synthesis by five major schools of Korean striking arts in the mid-1950s. General Choi penned the original treatise on the modern art (of which I still have an old tattered copy). General Choi spent severa years in Japan as a young man and studied Shotokan karate. The "official" TKD of the fifties includes "kata" from Okinawan styles. (The first kata I learned from my Shorin-Ryu instructor, naihanchi-shodan, is in the textbook!)

My first three TKD instructors taught ITF-style TaeKwon-Do, and it is brutally effective. We spent a good portion of each night doing conditioning drills blocking full-power kicks and punches. Talk about bruises! BUT... we also spent a signigicant amount of time learning to "slip" punches and using an opponent's momentum against them. I have recently spent some time in a local Kyokushin-kai dojo. My 28 year old TKD is 95% identical to the Kyokshin they are teaching! (At a seminar several years ago, a group of us (ahem) "experienced" yudansha were discussing how similar all styles of "hard" martial arts were once you got past the basics. As Bruce Lee is quoted as having said, (and I paraphrase)
"Before I started in the martial arts, a kick was just a kick and a punch was just a punch. Then I found that a kick was more than just a kick and a punch was more than just a punch. After I really learned the martial arts, I found out that a kick is just a kick and a punch is just a punch."

Bottom line, guys. Find a reputable sensei, sabumnim, or instructor in the type of system you want (hard or soft) and work at it. The system doesn't make you effective, you do. (kinda like it's not the gun, it's how well you use it, right???)

Regards,
Mike Slisher

BTW, I started in Shorin-Ryu in March of 1973, and have been active pretty much since then in MA. Third degree in TKD, experience without Dan rankings in Shorin-Ryu, Aikido, and Ueichi-Ryu, and Kyokushin-kai.
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Old August 25, 2001, 03:05 PM   #42
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That's because Tae Kwon Do does NOT come from "five major schools of Korean striking arts." It comes from Shotokan.

Funny thing, "the founder" of Kyokushin was also an ethnic Korean who learned Shotokan.

As much as Korean revisionists love to represent Tae Kwon Do (of any political hue) as native, the fact remains that these are Japanese-originated systems.

"Real" Korean systems, which were mainly based on Chinese styles, mostly died out during the Japanese occupation.

The difference between ITF and *** is really miniscule when you compare either to, say, Muay Thai.

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Old August 25, 2001, 06:49 PM   #43
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FYI, as best as I can recall, Japan has no real home grown striking systems. Even Shotokan, the "quintessential" Japanese Karate, was introduced to the islands by an Okinawan national, Gichin Funakoshi.

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Old August 25, 2001, 08:22 PM   #44
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Uh, Despite whay Skorzeny says, "Slish" is mostly right.

I have a 1str Dan in ITF style TKD. And although I haven't necessarily heard that TKD is a synthesis of "5 different styles" two things are documentable (and at least accepted). 1. Is that Choi Hong Hi, the founder of modern TKD studied the korean art of Taekyon. 2. Is that Choi also achieved at least a 2nd degree in Shotokan while studying in a University in Japan.

This explains the Japanese link in TKD and does not deny or ignore the similarities between Japanese arts and TKD. But it also means there is a legitimate link between TKD and traditional Korean arts. Now there has also been a continual change and influence in TKD from both traditional Korean arts as well as other outside influences.

So TKD is neither a "thousand year old traditional Korean art" or a made up art from other sources. Actually, It's both!

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Old August 25, 2001, 08:30 PM   #45
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I seem to remember that shotokan karate was introduced to Japan in either 1916 or 1922, depending on who you talk to, from Okinawa.

The Okinawa systems (I think, better check me on this) were a combination of Chinese and homegrown arts.

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Old August 25, 2001, 10:38 PM   #46
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First of all, my apologies for lumping Okinawa with Japan. What I meant by "Japan" was today's "by-the-map" Japan, rather than "cultural" Japan that excludes the Ryukyus.

In my defense, while Funakoshi Giichin "brought" Okinawan Karate to Honshu, Shotokan is now properly considered "Japanese" assimiliated Karate system by the Japanese while distinctively Okinawan systems still remain independent.

I was wondering when someone was going to bring up "Tae Kyon." The funny thing about this mythical art is that it is almost without any historical documentation or reference in Korean historical texts. Even if such a thing existed, it is IMPOSSIBLE that it was a system of "a thousand years" or General Choi learned it.

What little actual Korean historical documentation shows about "ancient" Korean systems is largely transmissions of Chinese manual of man-at-arms exercises.

BTW, I lived in Japan and Korea for over 10+ years. During those times, I studied local fighting systems (not just martial arts) extensively (I also interviewed and documented conversations with notable military figures, but that's another story).

Lastly, it is very true that almost all Japanese systems owe their lineage to Chinese transmission. But the Japanese by and large acknowledge that origin whereas the Koreans, well, don't. Some Korean Yudo schools still teach that Yudo comes from Korean "Yusul" (Jujutsu), rather than Japanese Judo.

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Old August 26, 2001, 01:45 AM   #47
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(Ian,)

I've always understood "hard" and "soft" to be related to the amount of tension the user carried. There are hard and soft Chinese "Kung Fu" styles, for instance...
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Old August 26, 2001, 02:07 AM   #48
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Spectre, now that I think about it, you are probably correct. Somewhere along the way, I wound up thinking of the striking arts as being 'hard' styles and the grappling as being 'soft' styles.

I should probably work on that.

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Old August 27, 2001, 06:47 AM   #49
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sigh...

Much as I hate to do it, I have to agree with Skorzeny .

Koreans, in their quest to make TKD uniquely Korean, have created history where there is no verifiable link to the past. There have been martial arts in Korea for quite some time, dating back to at least the Three Kingdoms period (about 1300 years ago), but there is no verifiable link between any modern Korean art and any ancient Korean martial art. There's not one single example that I know of a verifiable instructor-student lineage that goes back further than WWII.

In WWII, the practice of martial arts in Japanese occupied territories was strictly controlled. As a result, a lot of the native martial arts died out, or were at least modified/blended with Japanese arts so as to become unrecognizable as separate martial arts.

BTW, don't buy the ITF's version of TKD history either. General Choi was not the "father of TKD" - he just suggested the name. At the time (1956) it was called TaeSooDo, or Korean Karate and consisted of a loose grouping of schools or "Kwans" - Choi was just one head of a Kwan. The Kwans (there were 7 original, then 2 more added a few years later - all but 3 have since disbanded) were/are the equivelant of the Japanese "Ryus" - not very different in terms of technique, but differing philosophies/emphasis when it came to applications. If anyone is the father of TKD, it's Funakoshi. Strangely, I, like my instructor before me (who's been in TKD since 1963 - only 7 years since there WAS a TKD), was taught the same forms Funakoshi taught in Japan. While the kicks are unique, the stances, hand techniques, blocks, the original forms, etc. all come from Shotokan Karate. His instructor, Dr. Dae Shik Kim, originally taught "karate" when he came to the U.S.

FWIW, Dr. Kim was good friends with another Korean, Mas Oyama. Whenever Oyama was in the southeastern US, he stayed with Dr. Kim at his house. Oyama (along with others, like Koichi Tohei) also taught several classes/seminars for Dr. Kim's students. I know of at least one TKD black belt who was offered rank in Kyokushin karate by Mas Oyama himself...
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Old August 27, 2001, 11:05 AM   #50
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Skorzeny:
As to Mas Oyama's Japanese Karate connection: In Jay Glucks' book, "Zen Combat" , which I believe was written sometime in the '50s and for which he extensively interviewed Oyama (Glucks was studying under Oyama at the time), Oyama acknowledges being influenced by Goju Ryu and Gogen Yamaguchi, but I don't recall his mentioning any ties to Shotokan. I could be wrong on this because it's been at least 15 yrs. since I read that book. If I am, I'd be interested in info regarding Oyama's ties to Shotokan, just to get a clearer picture.
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