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Old August 13, 2001, 02:20 AM   #1
skoonz
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Hapkido vs Aikido

OK, I'm looking for a new martial art and I want to know what you guys reckon about Hapkido and Aikido.

I know I should spread it around a bit and I will but I don't want to end up doing a soft art (e.g. modern day TKD)

I have a bit of experience with Seido karate and I was recomended to try Ju-Jitsu but I can't find an instructor nearby so I've decided between one of these two.
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Old August 13, 2001, 12:41 PM   #2
9mmepiphany
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i might be mistaken, but...isn't aikido a soft style

the only style that comes to mind that might be softer is dim muk...and finding an instructor in that art is neigh impossible
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Old August 13, 2001, 01:09 PM   #3
Spectre
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Hi, skoonz. Welcome to TFL!

By "soft art", I wonder if you mean ineffectual? TKD has a bad reputation among many serious martial artists, but is considered a "hard" style.

Example of "soft" style: Tai Chi Chuan.
Example of hard style: Shotokan Karate.

Being "hard" or "soft" has nothing to do with working well. You should be aware that aikido can be used effectively, but its goal is spiritual perfection.
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Old August 13, 2001, 02:21 PM   #4
Matt Wallis
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Hello!

Aikido is Japanese. Mostly joint locks and throws, lot's of deflection and misdirection. Hapkido, which is Korean, is like Aikido combined with some hard kicking and punching ala the other Korean arts.

There is a legend that Hapkido was developed by a Korean student of the Japanese guy that developed Aikido. Don't know if that's true, but there definitely is a connection between the two.

IMO both styles can be good. I'd think Hapkido is a little more well rounded, but then I've never studied Aikido. And as always the philosophy and ability of individual schools and instructors is usually just as (or more) important than the style.

Hope that helps,
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Old August 13, 2001, 02:51 PM   #5
Skorzeny
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Aikido, meaning the Harmony Spirit Way in Japanese, was founded by Ueshiba Morihei, whom his students call O-Sensei. Ueshiba learned a variety of "Jujutsu," including Daito-Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu from Takeda Sokaku.

Hapkido, meaning the Harmony Spirit Way in Korean (the two are spelled the same in Chinese characters), was founded and developed by several different Korean "masters," one of whom (Choi Young-Sool) was purportedly either a houseboy or a student of Takeda. However, unlike Ueshiba whose attedendance records exist in a written form, there is no documentary evidence of Choi's training under Takeda.

Practically speaking, Aikido utilizes techniques of throws and joint-immobilizations while Hapkido utilizes those in addition to kicks and punches.

Morally, Aikido emphasizes harmony with nature and minimum pain/suffering necessary to control the attacker, while Hapkido emphasizes discipline and deference to your instructor and classmates.

As for the actual efficacy of the styles practiced, well, I won't tell...

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Old August 13, 2001, 03:45 PM   #6
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The real question is what type of training or martial art are you looking for?

Aikido is primarily a style or system that uses proper balance and form, exploiting the poor form and balance of an opponent. Some Aikido practioners have skills in strikes and kicks, but as a rule most schools do not offer these skills as part of the curriculum for Aikido.

Hapkido is very similar is that many joint locks, manipulations, throws, and breaks are taught, but the big difference is in Hapkido the student starts out learning some very powerful kicking and striking techniques.

Both are very worth while endeavors and I'm sure you'll find either very satisfying
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Old August 13, 2001, 06:38 PM   #7
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Thanks for the opinions guys.

My opinion of TKD was formed by a bar fight I got into, in which I (with six months seido karate experience and a two day territorial CQC course) flattened two senior members of the local TKD club. Enough said.

I think I might try Hapkido, it sounds like it is more well rounded then Aikido.

P.S. The TKD guys were stone cold sober, so by soft I mean pathetically ineffective
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Old August 13, 2001, 07:20 PM   #8
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What are you doing getting into bar fights?

If you relate that story, most of the hippie New Age Aikido dojo will not take you in. They really prefer non-confrontational students (not the kind who says "uh, I don't think that Kotegaeshi stuff will actually let you catch my fist when I try to punch your face out" - Bam! See, didn't work).

As for the effectiveness of Hapkido kicks and punches, well, I regard them to be about as realistic as Tae Kwon Do kicks and punches.

Checkout a boxer or a Muay Thai fighter and see how their kicks and punches fare compared to Hapkido or Tae Kwon Do (or even Shotokan) kicks and punches.

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Old August 14, 2001, 05:03 AM   #9
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It was my first and only bar fight and I wasn't trying to get into it. I had entered a pool competition with a mate and beat these guys quite badly (six balls) and they couldn't take it so they tried to act tough and push my mate around, I told them where to go and one took a swing at me......bang...bang - no more problem. They were later kicked out of the class. Whether it was for being @$$holes or losing to me I don't know

However whatever art I choose must be practical, no karate kid standing on one leg rubbish.

I was told hapkido was a modern variant of another art - Hwa Rang Do. Is this true, and how is Hwa Rang Do as an art
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Old August 14, 2001, 06:07 AM   #10
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New Zealand eh ? What was it that Filho and Ray Sefo study ? Kyukushin something or other? Anyways...K1 sports are popular in your neck of the woods. You should check out Muay Thai or one of the arts popular in K1. I bet there are more schools in your area and you just don't know it. Most don't list in the local directory (why I don't know...). www.axkickboxing.com , there is a guy from New Zealand who trains proffessional fighters who I bet could give you a good rundown of the quality schools in your area. Check it.
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Old August 14, 2001, 04:22 PM   #11
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Thanks Ateam I'll check that out.

BTW I was talking to someone about the TKD guys and I heard they were an anabolic steroids - explains the attitude.
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Old August 14, 2001, 08:38 PM   #12
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Hapkido was one of the major styles I have been practicing since I was ten(I'm now 27). Out of all the styles that I have practiced this one seems to be what I revert back to whenever I am in doubt.

Hapkido has a lot of the joint locking and circular-smooth blocking and throws of aikido coupled with the hard linear kicking of say a Tae Kwon Do and the straight forward hand strikes of say Shotokan.

This is a good art if you wanted to learn both grappling techniques as well as striking techniques, but didn't want to take 2 different styles.
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Old August 15, 2001, 02:08 AM   #13
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But there are differences!

As said by Skorzeny,there are "hippie" Aikido schools out there,forget them.
Go with a school that teaches more traditional and practical methods and I would rate above Hapkido.
You will learn to move correctly,stay balanced and you dont have to be very strong.
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Old August 15, 2001, 02:57 AM   #14
skoonz
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I've found a combat hapkido school and I am going to go along tomorrow night. That thing about Aikido and balance doesn't seem to fit right with my two left clumsy size 12 feet

Thanks for all your help guys!
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Old August 15, 2001, 07:10 AM   #15
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Hwa Rang Do was developed by some among the same group of "masters" who came up with Hapkido.

It claims to be the system used by medieval Hwa Rang (flower youth) of the Shilla Kingdom, who were a medieval Korean version of the Hitler Jugend.

That claim, of course, is completely non-sensical. The system was developed during the post-colonial period (1945 and on).

There is no such thing as "Combat Hapkido" unless you count a recent "development" that attempts to take advantage of recent popularity of combatives and grappling arts.

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Old August 15, 2001, 08:42 PM   #16
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If you are interested in an art that does a good job of integrating both weapons and empty hand, check out Filipino Martial Arts (variously referred to as Eskrima, Kali, Arnis, etc.).
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Old August 16, 2001, 02:16 AM   #17
witzig
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Not that kind of balance Skoonz!

No no man,you will not learn to walk the tightrope or anything!
You will just learn to be light and easy on your feet,no matter how big and clumsy you may happen to be.
This is actually the best way of fighting,to have gliding and smooth footwork,not crazy and unneccesary like a boxers.You will also learn energy preservation which is also extremely important for real world applications.
To Skorzeny...
The nickname you have is one of a battlefield legend,a commando commander of the highest calibre.
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Old August 16, 2001, 02:39 AM   #18
ATeaM
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"This is actually the best way of fighting,to have gliding and smooth footwork,not crazy and unneccesary like a boxers."


Where did you learn how to box zitwig ?
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Old August 16, 2001, 04:32 AM   #19
Skorzeny
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Witzig:

I'd like to see some Aikidoka "glide lightly" against even amateur boxers with their "clumsy" foot work. I think it wold be hilarious for me, but probably not for most Aikidoka.

Thank you for telling me about my own handle. I know who Otto Skorzeny was.

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Old August 16, 2001, 06:26 AM   #20
witzig
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Ha ha ha,very funny boys...
Imagine....
you have had a hard day at work,you may not be feeling your best.
It is getting dark,you have got off the bus and make you way home.
Two punks sneak up on you and want to beat you up.
NOW.Would you,could you,should you,go into boxer mode and start shuffling and dancing all over the place?Energy to do this at these times?Christ,it may even lead you to trip on something.
What Iam trying to say is do only what is needed!.Dont waste energy.
I did not say that boxers had clumsy footwork,read my post again please.
Play around with any friends of your that may happen to be boxers,what do they do,even when play fighting?They move their feet around constantly.Needed for the ring but not the streets.
Hell,one leg forward and one back?the boxer is already off balance friends,a good Aikido practicioner should be able to exploit this.
Big big problem though,how many proper Aikido schools are there around?Not many at all.Join most of them,and you will actually go backwards in the world of H2H.
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Old August 16, 2001, 12:53 PM   #21
ATeaM
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Wait wait, I just saw "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" after I posted. I now have a better understanding of this "gliding" footwork. No need for further explanation.
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Old August 16, 2001, 03:14 PM   #22
Skorzeny
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Based on Witzig's description, I have a mental image of boxers as people who shake hysterically at every turn (like some musical movies of bygone years).

I think that you need to check out a local boxing gym, Witzig.

Better yet, check out a local Muay Thai gym.

Skorzeny
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Old August 16, 2001, 04:22 PM   #23
Spectre
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While I do understand what witzig is saying about boxers bouncing in the ring, boxers are quite effectual, as a rule. Somehow, I can't see a boxer "dancing" when confronted by punks on the street.

As far as one foot forward, one foot back, almost all stances *I* practice are like this. Since I can leap or run in any direction, I don't feel off balance...
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Old August 16, 2001, 06:58 PM   #24
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Well...

"As for the effectiveness of Hapkido kicks and punches, well, I regard them to be about as realistic as Tae Kwon Do kicks and punches.

Checkout a boxer or a Muay Thai fighter and see how their kicks and punches fare compared to Hapkido or Tae Kwon Do (or even Shotokan) kicks and punches.

Skorzeny"
--------------------

I can offer a little bit of personal experience here. I have been practicing Muay Thai for a while and, aside from a little Tai Chi, it's the only form I've practiced. When I was in training there weren't a lot of people in the class. In fact, our class lost several people to the local Tae Kwon Do class. In their defense, my teacher was very strict and expected you to work hard regardless of your age. He didn't teach us knee and elbow strikes until we'd reached the "advanced level." Anyway, since the nearest Thai school back then was in San Francisco (some 150 mi. away), we began sparring with the TKD class.

Now, these were bouts, we were competing, but we were fully padded(I was only thirteen at the time). The first guy I went up against was a couple years older than I was and about 15/20lbs heavier. He could do full splits and amazing aerial kicks. He had been to several M.A. camps and was working on his black belt. I was just shy of a year's training and was the most advanced student in the class. Needless to say, I was scared sheetless.

I very quickly found out that the TKD kicks he was throwing were much less effective than the round kicks and push kicks I was throwing. Same thing with punches. No throws or elbows(or head-butting) were allowed. It was very easy to tell that we were trained to fight in the ring and their training was more for "show." I don't think the word "show"is accurate, but it's the only word I could think of.

Thai fighting is very easy to master because there are very few offensive and defensive positions, and very few strikes. The difference is in conditioning your body to take high-impact strikes and returning with a high-impact strike. TKD students could do some visually amazing things, but they weren't conditioned to participate in "brutal" battles in the ring.
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Old August 16, 2001, 08:53 PM   #25
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Adrenaline Junky:

I trained in Tae Kwon Do for over ten years both in the US and Korea. I earned my blackbelt at the Kukiwon (World Tae Kwon Do Federation HQ in Seoul). I thought that I knew a thing or two about kicking until I sparred with an amateur Muay Thai fighter.

He kicked me once in the thigh with his shin (which was alien to me) and I just about keeled over. Needless to say, the sparring was done. More experiences like this and further observations have convinced me that Muay Thai is without equal among Asian striking arts.

BTW, my favorite kicking technique is now the shin kick to the nerves on the major thigh. I taught this to my petite wife and anyone who gets hit by her once have trouble walking right for a while. Imagine what a full-size man can do with that!

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