The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 5, 2001, 05:16 PM   #1
cbjessee@NH
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 14, 2001
Location: Bedford, NH
Posts: 72
Australian Disarm Technique

When the BG has a gun tucked in tight to the ribcage, in a decent retention hold, a disarm is pretty hard. I hear there is something that the Australians have developed that's starting to go around the US. Any clues?

BRET
cbjessee@NH is offline  
Old August 5, 2001, 08:42 PM   #2
Navy joe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 28, 2001
Location: VA, USA
Posts: 1,803
Yeah, they turn the Gov. loose and demand to inspect the weapon for proper registration. At this point it is taken completing the disarm. Seriously I think the only good solution is shoot'em til disarm and dat arm don't work anymore.
__________________
FY47012
Navy joe is offline  
Old August 6, 2001, 12:21 AM   #3
Spectre
Staff Alumnus
 
Join Date: October 23, 1998
Location: DC
Posts: 3,274
CB,

Welcome to TFL! Good luck on a disarm from that position. One only has a chance of effecting a disarm if you can touch the firearm; from what you're describing, the assailant's apparently out of reach.

If you cannot sucker him in closer, do not make a play for his weapon, unless you know you're going to be shot, regardless. Then, you have nothing to lose, right?

Remember, the threat is the MAN with the gun, not the gun. If you can find a way to take the MAN out of the equation, the gun will not hurt you.
Spectre is offline  
Old August 6, 2001, 05:21 AM   #4
cbjessee@NH
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 14, 2001
Location: Bedford, NH
Posts: 72
Oh yeah, all Australians are disarmed - I forgot.

A good defensive folding knife instructor teaching a mixed LEO/non-LEO group noted, after doing the standard disarms for close-in threats with extended weapons, that the Aussies had evolved a technique and passed to the US during the Olympics. He said he'd been asked to pass it on only to LEOs, and so chose not to teach it that day.

Understandably, it hard to keep LEO methods aways from BGs if you give techniques away to anyone. Those prison films show the BGs have a lot more time to think of new ways to counter LEO methods than LEOs have to think of new ones. The stuff I learned 10 years ago is great for anyone but a criminal.

BRET
cbjessee@NH is offline  
Old August 6, 2001, 07:26 AM   #5
David Scott
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 11, 2000
Posts: 2,457
From The Australian Manual Of Close Quarters Combat by Michael J. Dundee (Bludger & Chunder, Melbourne 1993):

Quote:

To disarm an assailant at contact distance, you must take advantage of the unique resources of Australian culture:

1. Scream "G'DAY MATE!!! in his ear, to disorient him.

2. Let loose a cloud of beer-powered flatulence that will double him over. To be able to do this, you'll have to suck down a steady three cans of Foster's an hour, all day, but hey, no worries, eh, mate?

3. The assailant is now bent over, clutching his ears and retching. You can now reach into his waistband at the back, give him an enormous wedgie, and throw in a handful of hot shrimp from the barbie. REALLY hot! When you let the elastic go, the shrimp will be propelled right "down under" his "meat and two veg". (Editors' note: Some of the more tangy barbecue sauces will cause permanent sterility.)

4. As the bloke's family jewels start to roast, he'll straighten up. Since he will still be clutching his middle, you need only to yell to the nearest Australian Rules Football team, "Hoy, lads! That bloke's got the bleedin' ball!" Stand back and enjoy the carnage.

5. When the football team moves on, you can go through the assailant's pockets for loose change, and dance on his mangled, lifeless body while singing "Waltzing Matilda".

6. Write down everything that happened and sell it to an American movie company as a "script concept."
__________________
"As I looked at my two young sons, each with his gun, and considered how much the safety of the party depended on these little fellows, I felt grateful to you, dear husband, for having acquainted them in childhood with the use of firearms."

-- Elisabeth Robinson, in The Swiss Family Robinson by Johann Wyss
David Scott is offline  
Old August 6, 2001, 07:59 AM   #6
Oink
Member
 
Join Date: July 14, 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 20
Foster's is OUT, it must now be VB (Victorian Bitters). Nobody here drinks Fosters, it's no longer an Aussie beer, what you get in USA is made in Canada.....YUK!:barf:
__________________
"Wear short sleaves and support your right to bare arms"
Oink is offline  
Old August 6, 2001, 09:25 PM   #7
cbjessee@NH
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 14, 2001
Location: Bedford, NH
Posts: 72
Another thread gone to hell ... but I loved it anyway.

BRET
cbjessee@NH is offline  
Old August 6, 2001, 10:35 PM   #8
Spectre
Staff Alumnus
 
Join Date: October 23, 1998
Location: DC
Posts: 3,274
If the BG has a firearm (and you do not), you have to force them to close, unless you have enough distance to run with a good chance of not being hit.
Spectre is offline  
Old August 7, 2001, 08:53 AM   #9
KSFreeman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 9, 2001
Location: Lafayette, Indiana--American-occupied America
Posts: 5,416
Australian disarm: turn loose a pack of dingos.

Hoosier disarm: in that position, shoot him until weapon drops while you are moving to cover.

My Foster's in made in Kanada? YIKES!!!
KSFreeman is offline  
Old August 7, 2001, 12:03 PM   #10
Glamdring
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 23, 2000
Location: MN
Posts: 1,388
I didn't know there were any "good" retention holds. AFAIK "retention" holds just keep gun close to the body so that one has to get closer to reach it.

If the gun is held very close to the body alongside the rib cage simply hitting/cuffing the gun with an outside-in blow should work fairly well. Since the person holding the gun has already basically trapped his own arm against his chest, you will be stressing the wrist.

Or you can simply pin/trap the gun or gun hand/arm to the chest and apply forearm strike with other arm to throat, nose, etc. Or a hammer blow or Mui Tai type downward elbow strike to collar bone.

Heck as long as you can stay offline from the muzzle you could use Wing Chun technique of keeping opponents gun arm trapped against chest with one hand at a time while you pound his face with multiple blows to the head. In Wing Chun you try to get opponent into this type of position since he can't protect his head from blows with the arm that is trapped.
Glamdring is offline  
Old August 8, 2001, 02:35 PM   #11
armedbutnotdangerous
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 23, 2001
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 171
IMHO, any time you try to disarm when a gun is pointed at you, you've got about a 90% chance of getting shot.

One of my instructors in college (Police tactics and training class) refused to teach any disarming techniques, because he didn't want to be responsible for getting anyone shot. He said the only way anybody was ever going to shoot him was in the ass as he was running away !!

I personally agree with his sentiment, if not quite the whole idea.

I'm only of average skills, and think it would be difficult to disarm me without getting shot.

FWIW.

Steve.
__________________
Louis L'Amour said it best!!
armedbutnotdangerous is offline  
Old August 8, 2001, 04:34 PM   #12
Spectre
Staff Alumnus
 
Join Date: October 23, 1998
Location: DC
Posts: 3,274
Distance, distance, distance.

If you cannot touch the gun, you get shot, at least if you're attempting a disarm.

(BTW, if have found that shorter bl firearms are harder to disarm.)
Spectre is offline  
Old August 8, 2001, 09:14 PM   #13
Glamdring
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 23, 2000
Location: MN
Posts: 1,388
armedbutnotdangerous: Did that instructor teach weapon retention? Did they cover the statistics on LEO being shot with their or another LEO's firearm that some goblin had taken?

I don't know how one can gain any real skill at weapon retention without learning disarms.

Couple of points to ponder. One might well get shot in a gunfight, that doesn't mean you lose or die simply because you get shot.

I still remember a forensic case we studied in college. Woman was shot twice by her abusive SO inside a house with a 30-30 RIFLE. She had her arms up in the classic defensive position. Both bullets basically broke up on her arm bones. Both of those wounds were survivable. What killed her was the third shot to the head fired from near contact range after she had dropped to floor from the pain/shock of the first two shots.

One conclusion I drew from my forensic classes was if I expected someone to shoot at me and I couldn't get behind cover or out of line with the muzzle, that I could use arm or leg bones to stop or deflect a round. Not saying that would be an ideal choice, at best you would probably lose the use of that limb. But bullet in arm or leg is more survivable than one in the head or heart/lungs.
Glamdring is offline  
Old August 9, 2001, 12:41 AM   #14
madgrad
Member
 
Join Date: July 19, 2001
Posts: 58
gun disarms

Check the official Krav Maga website. And enter your question in the forums. The KM's gun disarms are the best out there and easiest to teach.

I hope this helps.
madgrad is offline  
Old August 9, 2001, 11:46 AM   #15
armedbutnotdangerous
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 23, 2001
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 171
Glamdring;

I agree that getting shot isn't necessarily a death sentence. I've seen instances where a perp was shot multiple times with 9MM and 12ga. and survived.

However, isn't having a bullet in your arm or leg going to make it a little more difficult to disarm the attacker?

Also, while attempting to disarm, odds are your hands are going to be occupied, and very likely that any shots will be contact wounds or so close that you couldn't "block" them.

Just a couple more points to ponder.

Steve.
__________________
Louis L'Amour said it best!!
armedbutnotdangerous is offline  
Old August 10, 2001, 04:36 AM   #16
Glamdring
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 23, 2000
Location: MN
Posts: 1,388
armedbutnotdangerous: Yes, bullet in arm or leg would be bad. I just think it is a(slightly) better option than a bullet in the back [what I would expect if I ran away].

Unless I have cover or concealment very close I would rather move in on a gun armed person at close range. I am assuming the typical very close distances that armed confrontations occur at (ie a few paces at the far side). The other problem is that even if cover/concealment is present at close range goblin can often simply step or lean around or over your cover/concealment and still shoot you.

I think running before problem starts is a good idea. I am not so sure that once hostile intent has been shown that running, without a specific goal, is a good idea. Running won't solve the problem unless the goblin is to tired/lazy/whatever to give chase or shoot you as you run.

Basic tactics for disarms are: Start first so they have to respond, get off the line of force [line of fire], get control of gun muzzle, disarm or disable.

If you were within arms reach or less than a full step of arms reach I would grab or strike the gun or gun hand as I moved offline. If I am worried about were bullets go besides hitting me I would direct muzzle up or into goblins body. If I don't have to worry about other people being shot I will simply try to break the limb holding the gun while not letting it point at me.

If your a bit beyond arms reach then I would move offline while trying to present the least vulnerable part of my body that I can to his line of fire. With the arm that would mean either palm aimed at muzzle like your going to palm strike/stiff arm the gun muzzle or line up forearm with upper arm [sort of like a muay ti ready position] so bullet would have to pass thru upper and lower arm to reach torso.

The legs I have mainly thought of using them in modified roll over or reclined shooting postion with handgun if you didn't have any cover or concealment handy but did have a handgun.

I believe one should expect to get shot in a gun fight. Just like you have to expect to get cut in a knife fight.

I agree with you completly that a disarm attempt is dangerous. You said "I'm only of average skills, and think it would be difficult to disarm me without getting shot." Don't you think it would be even harder to run away from you without getting shot than it would be to disarm you without getting shot? Not to mention if you miss the person running away you can keep shooting till you run out of ammo. But if the person is attempting a disarm you have to worry about more than sight alignment?
Glamdring is offline  
Old August 10, 2001, 11:57 AM   #17
armedbutnotdangerous
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 23, 2001
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 171
Glamdring;

You make some interesting points.

You've gotten me thinking....I hate that!!!!!

Steve.
__________________
Louis L'Amour said it best!!
armedbutnotdangerous is offline  
Old August 10, 2001, 10:11 PM   #18
Glamdring
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 23, 2000
Location: MN
Posts: 1,388
Thanks.
__________________
"A traveler has no protection besides his fire-arms; and the constant habit of carrying them is the main check to more frequent robberies" --Charles Darwin from The Voyage Of The Beagle
Glamdring is offline  
Old August 11, 2001, 01:56 AM   #19
witzig
Junior Member
 
Join Date: July 31, 2001
Posts: 10
Gun disarms

Hi guys,been reading through and noticed a lot of you have interest in gun disarm techniques.
I think before you prepare to do the "physicall" techniques,proper prep in areas of the mind are needed.
Dont forget,this is a gun we are talking about,real and loaded so you must be phsycologically prepared,you may know all the technique but will freeze with terror if and when the time may come for desicive action.
The best Ive seen?The gun disarms used by Russian special forces,if you can learn,do so because it is just light years ahead of anything out there at the moment.
Good learning!
witzig is offline  
Old August 13, 2001, 06:49 PM   #20
skoonz
Junior Member
 
Join Date: August 13, 2001
Location: Dunedin, New Zealand
Posts: 13
If you drink Fosters in the US your local brew must be really bad, oh that's right I've tried Budweiser.:barf:

What you need is a good supply of Speights.

(And if any Aussie mentions the Bledisloe cup I will just point out the Warriors beating the sharks 30 - 0)
skoonz is offline  
Old August 29, 2001, 08:10 AM   #21
Oink
Member
 
Join Date: July 14, 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 20
Don't count for nothing, we'll still win in the long run.......

Aussie, Aussie, Aussie, Beer, Beer, Beer!!!!!!!!!

__________________
"Wear short sleaves and support your right to bare arms"
Oink is offline  
Old August 29, 2001, 10:18 AM   #22
Coronach
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 25, 1999
Posts: 3,147
Our local beers are horrible, as a rule, but there are some microbrews out there that are quite good. I have yet to taste a good beer from either Australia or Canada, but I'm sure I'm getting the mass-produced pap, just the same as foreigners get Miller and Bud from the USA.

Mike
__________________
The axe bites into the door, ripping a hole in one panel. The maniac puts his face into the hole, cackling gleefully, "Here's Johnny...erk."
"And here's Smith and Wesson," murmurs Coronach, Mozambiquing six rounds of .357 into the critter at a range of three feet. -Lawdog

"True pacifism is the finest form of manliness. But if a man comes up to you and cuts your hand off, you don't just offer him the other one. Not if you want to go on playing the piano, you don't." -Sam Peckinpah

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein
Coronach is offline  
Old August 29, 2001, 11:33 PM   #23
Quartus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 8, 2001
Location: Virginia
Posts: 3,823
The only REALLY good beer...

Trappiste, in Belgium. Notice I didn't say, "from Belgium."

Pasturization is a crime against nature, and preservatives are for cadavers.


Back to the guns....

I notice in some posts, both with guns and in here, there is sometimes a view that says, "If it isn't 100% guarnateed to work, it's useless." Oh, it's never said in those words. It goes more like this, "Well, even if you ----, this other thing coiuld happen. You're kiddiing yourself if you think that will do you any good!"


Well, then everything is useless. Marksmanship is useless, tactical training is useless, physical fitness is useless, martial arts training is useless - hey, even carrying a gun is useless!

Oh, carrying a 9mm is completely useless because it's not as powerful as a ----- (fill in your favorite weapon). No, carrying a .45 is not one bit better than a 9mm because you can't guarantee that every shot will be more effective than a 9.

Studying ----- (fill in the MA of your choice) is useless because you might encounter 5 BGs and they will stomp you anyway. You might encounter a reeely big guy and he will stomp you anyway.


But it's not about 100% guarantees. It's about maximizing our chances, isn't it? So anything that will improve our chances is.... useful, isn't it?
__________________
.

Better to know what you don't know than to think you know what you don't know.
Quartus is offline  
Old August 30, 2001, 04:31 PM   #24
Spectre
Staff Alumnus
 
Join Date: October 23, 1998
Location: DC
Posts: 3,274
Cap'n, you most certainly have a point.
__________________
John


Wandering Thoughts
Spectre is offline  
Old September 2, 2001, 12:07 AM   #25
Art Eatman
Staff Lead
 
Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Terlingua, TX, USA
Posts: 22,540
During my limited amount of training in unarmed combat, the instructor covered attempting to disarm a Bad Guy. The high-speed, flowing sequence is 1. Clear one's body of the line of fire; 2. Control (grab) the BG's weapon; and 3. Attack. (I'd scream as loud as I could, trying for "Psych" as well as action. )

This basically works if you're within maybe five to six feet of the gun; it probably works best if the BG's handgun is in the proto-typical Hollywood extended-arm grip.

It seems pretty well proven that if you make that first move, out of the line of fire, the BG's trigger finger will respond before he turns his body or moves his arm; the first shot misses.

My pesonal opinion is that if I just stood there, I'd likely die; if I do something, I may well be unharmed or "merely" wounded. Howsomever, wounds can be surviveable--and adrenalin helps.

More opinion: Few BGs expect an attack as a response--they learned from both movies or earlier experience. Surprise is always a help.

FWIW,

Art
__________________
You're from BATFE? Come right in! I use all your fine products!
Art Eatman is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12589 seconds with 7 queries