The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 27, 2001, 01:09 PM   #1
eyeball
Junior member
 
Join Date: June 7, 2001
Posts: 84
dogs

besides the gun, what is the best defense against a steroid-crazed-yellow-eyed-rabied-teeth pitbull.

I like to go jogging every now and then and the place where I jog is a canyon trail. so if I should ever scream, nobody would hear me.

what weapon (besides the gun), fighting techniques techniques should I use if I am ever confronted by one of these beasts?
eyeball is offline  
Old July 27, 2001, 01:36 PM   #2
Jack Carson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 13, 2001
Location: Central Oklahoma
Posts: 275
unarmed vs. dog

First rule: Don't run from a dog. Only makes it worse.
Second: Make yourself as big as you can...arms up in the air waving and shouting angrily.
Third: Carry some sort of pepper spray if possible. Hit him in the face with it.
Pit bulls are hard to kill barehanded--Not a voice of experience but i have a buddy who was an animal control officer for about 10 years. That's what he told me.

Sorry, those are the only pointers I have.
Good Luck and Carry a potent sidearm!
Jack
__________________
Jack C.
Jack Carson is offline  
Old July 27, 2001, 02:19 PM   #3
PreserveFreedom
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
They make a pepper spray that is formulated for dogs. Last time I remember, it came in a blue can with a red plastic clip. You should be able to see one on your local letter-carrier's belt. Other than that, having your own dog with could buy you enough time to draw your spray or pistol. If you like jogging, try getting into the habit of doing it daily. If you could give a dog a daily jog he would be your best friend.
 
Old July 27, 2001, 07:05 PM   #4
LASur5r
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 20, 2000
Location: pasadena,california,America
Posts: 542
DOG SPRAY

Sorry Preserve,
Brother is a mail carrier. He's had to use the spray several times. With the bigger, really determined dogs? Only ticked the dogs off more.
Also boss had to use it when we were out on a site once. The spray only pi$$ed the dogs off more...not scientific or anything, but I think the dogs took more bites out of them because of the spray...really ticked them off.

With my boss, I just jumped in the cr and drove off.

My brother? He carries what my father did when he was a carrier. A heavy leather belt with a heavy buckle.
LASur5r is offline  
Old July 27, 2001, 08:05 PM   #5
Art Eatman
Staff Lead
 
Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Terlingua, TX, USA
Posts: 22,585
If you truly enjoy screams of agony from man or beast , use a water-pistol filled with formaldehyde. Truly awesome, what it does to the nerve receptors in mucous membranes!

Not permanently damaging; it just makes 'em wish they were dead!

, Art
__________________
You're from BATFE? Come right in! I use all your fine products!
Art Eatman is offline  
Old July 27, 2001, 10:33 PM   #6
eyeball
Junior member
 
Join Date: June 7, 2001
Posts: 84
thanx for all the comments fellas

art eatman,

where can I get this formaldehyde stuff?
eyeball is offline  
Old July 28, 2001, 07:08 AM   #7
KPS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 17, 2001
Location: MA
Posts: 780
For the strongest pepper spray on the market try www.foxlabs.com
KPS is offline  
Old July 28, 2001, 03:04 PM   #8
Art Eatman
Staff Lead
 
Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Terlingua, TX, USA
Posts: 22,585
Formaldehyde is used as a preservative in biology labs. Keep all those frogs and cats intact for the students to chop up. So, a chemical supply house for your local high school or college.

Art
__________________
You're from BATFE? Come right in! I use all your fine products!
Art Eatman is offline  
Old July 28, 2001, 05:30 PM   #9
eyeball
Junior member
 
Join Date: June 7, 2001
Posts: 84
thanx guys
eyeball is offline  
Old July 29, 2001, 02:14 PM   #10
Jody Hudson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2000
Location: Near Rehoboth Beach Delaware
Posts: 1,140
I just got back from the Fox site and the products they show seem to be VERY low powered compared to what I've had. First of all, I used to carry a small mayonaise jar, about 3 oz. I guess, filled with pure FRESH Capsicum Cayenne pepper powder made into a soup with grain alcohol. This is what was used in Alaska for Griz.

Temperature does affect pepper spray, in the cold it does far less damage. I prefer 20% or stronger sprays as I am NOT going to use the stuff in less I must. By the way, the spray even when not used goes bad in a year of so, so you must get fresh cans once a year or so.

Fox has only 1% to 5% sprays according to what I saw. Here is some 10-15-20% Oleoresin Capsicum
http://www.peppersprayinc.com/otherpeppersprays.htm
Some good data:
http://www.aware.org/rhot.htm

What I've used is a walking stick made of Hickory or something NOT biteable or breakable and fixed with a point. Mine has a long metal point. And using it to give distance by pointing it at the mouth of the dog. If the dog seems is in range then perhaps a quick Pool-Shot like your first shot, with a long and powerful follow through down the throat, with a quick pull back and prepare for second shot could be in order. Swinging a stick is NOT my preference as some dogs have developed defense and/or attack moves against a swung stick.

I've had to kill one wild dog by hand and it was FAR harder and took FAR longer than I would have ever believed. The dog charged me, and I charged it; coming up under the throat I grabbed it hard with my left hand under the throat as hard as I could and held on. I had a heavy, short, Corpsman's Machete on my right side and took it out. It was razor sharp, heavy and had a short, about 16 inches, 1/4 inch thick blade.

I hacked and hacked with all I had into the base of the skull and spine as the dog continued to try and get me. This was only about a 50 pound dog and I was holding it off the ground by the throat the entire time. I think I chopped it, with all my might, about 30 times into the spine.

My three year old son was with me and was the initial target of the dog. There were five other larger dogs about 15 to 20 feet away from us in a circle barking and snarling. I was really trying to finish the first dog with every single stroke including the first one as I figured I might have five more dogs at least to defend ourselves against. The first dog finally died, with lots of noise as I chopped it. I also was making LOTS of noise, in hopes that the other dogs would stay put for a while.

Once the dog went limp in my hand I chopped it a few more times in the same place on the spine, just behind the head, until I went all the way through the spine which was a lot easier once the dog stopped fighting me. AS I was chopping through the spine of the first dog, I was looking to see which dog was going to come at us next.

A second and much larger dog lunged a little closer to us than the others. I gave a war cry, as I held my son closer to me with my left hand and started toward the dog with my machete raised. All at once that dog fled and the others with it.

I don't want to EVER do that again.

My preference, now, when in the woods with possible dog problems... is along with the walking stick, my Glock 19, hi-cap with Quik-Shoks and an extra magazine.

Several other times, three or four I think, I've backed down dogs with a loud attack, straight at the leader.
__________________
We help people relocate to Rehoboth Beach Delaware.
Our Site:
www.Kate-Jody.com
Jody Hudson is offline  
Old July 29, 2001, 06:59 PM   #11
PUMC_TomG
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 8, 2001
Location: C. Florida
Posts: 249
Lower is better?

Actually, as I recall, the lower the concentration of OC, the more effective it is against humans. Reason being is the higher concentrations do not penetrate the mucous membranes, pores, etc. as well. The higher concentrations just kinda hang on the outside of your skin. It still burns...but not as badly.
PUMC_TomG is offline  
Old July 29, 2001, 09:09 PM   #12
Jody Hudson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2000
Location: Near Rehoboth Beach Delaware
Posts: 1,140
I can't follow that reasoning nor does experience provide agreement. Certainly I do not wish to test it. But since we are speaking of dissolved vegetable oils, I can only surmise that there might be a difference in the solvent and propellants.

Do you have any test data resources?
__________________
We help people relocate to Rehoboth Beach Delaware.
Our Site:
www.Kate-Jody.com
Jody Hudson is offline  
Old July 29, 2001, 09:53 PM   #13
eyeball
Junior member
 
Join Date: June 7, 2001
Posts: 84
damn Jody, that sounds like something straight out of the movies. you didn't get bit or anything?

here is a sight where I could get the same canine repellent for 44% of the price that you showed.

http://www.safety-sales.com/Merchant...gory_Code=WOUS
eyeball is offline  
Old July 29, 2001, 10:16 PM   #14
Jody Hudson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2000
Location: Near Rehoboth Beach Delaware
Posts: 1,140
I don't WANT to get bit either!

I forgot another incident. One of my prospective customers, about 20 years ago, wanted to sell thier home and had a very agressive Doberman. I always came, on time, with an appointment. After the first visit, I told the owner that the Doby should always be penned before I could show the house. She NEVER had it chained or penned and it would just fly around the house and come at me. Each time I faced it down, as I was waiting for her to answer the door. Now, MOST dogs just take to me and other than some instances with feral dogs in the woods, I have almost no problems. This Doby was nuts in my opinion. The owner was worse. Finally I told the owner to put the dog up every time before I came or I'd bite the dog. She looked at me a little wierd -- certainly looked like she thought I was wierd.

Well, I showed the house again about a week later. I called first of course and told the owner I had a man with me to look at the house and to make certain that the dog was chained or penned.

I went to the door and waited. I didn't see the dog anywhere, or hear it. All of a sudden it came up from behind the owner's car instead of from around the side of the house and went straight for my calf. Just as it's teeth were about to close on my calf, I reached down and grabbed it by the head, brought it up and chomped down on one of it's ears (a common practice in the country to break a horse from biting) and I chomped down HARD with my molars and pulled. The dog yelped as I threw it down. The owner screamed. My intended buyer turned and went back to his car while the owner was yelling at me and the intended buyer never responded to my calls again. I told the owner that I was cancelling my listing of her house and not doing business with her again. I was VERY angry. I went back to my office and called the State Police, who had already gotten a call from the owner. All the cops knew me. I went to the station and filled out papers to counter the allegations she made against me. They made some feeble attempts at humor, but the dog had made some little holes in my dress slacks and I wasn't amused by the damage. I did NOT share the levity, that they likely had about the situation. And, they were too professional and poised, while on the job and that close to the incident to tease me.

Afterwards, actually for a few years, I heard about that incident, from those in my office and from some of the cops. They would joke at me but with a little nervousness. As one cop put it; he wasn't all that certain that he wanted to claim a friendship with a dog biter like me, especially a Doberman biter.

If it had not been a customers dog, I'd have probably been rougher on it. Growing up on a farm with horses, mules, cows, dogs, bulls and migrant workers -- I just never had the opinion that anything or anyone else had the right to attack me.

And we just, as peace loving people, gentle farmers and decendents of Quakers, wanted to make certain that we had the undivided attention of any critter we were "explaining" things to during or after an attack or attempted biting. Some critters just need more attention getting tactics. I am still just a peacenik, don't like violence, don't like to fight critters of any kind, and don't take kindly to being attacked.
__________________
We help people relocate to Rehoboth Beach Delaware.
Our Site:
www.Kate-Jody.com
Jody Hudson is offline  
Old July 30, 2001, 05:34 AM   #15
eyeball
Junior member
 
Join Date: June 7, 2001
Posts: 84
what is the purpose of biting a dog?... are there more effective "bite zones" than other "bite zones"?... would you recommend me biting a dog in self defense?...



does it taste like chicken?
eyeball is offline  
Old July 30, 2001, 07:28 AM   #16
Jody Hudson
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2000
Location: Near Rehoboth Beach Delaware
Posts: 1,140
On horses,bulls, mules, donkeys, rams, goats and dogs; the effective tactic is HARD, sudden, unexpected, ear biting. Don't use the front teeth or you may end up losing them when the animal jerks. Use the molars and bite down for all you are worth. Try to sever the ear. In every case it is best to remember that the animal will continue to try and bite you if you are not sudden enough or don't bite hard enough. Particularly on dogs, where the teeth are closer to your face, make certain you have a stong enough hold on the dogs head, otherwise it will be you that is bitten.

And the taste is like chicken. It's like raw, dirty, crappy chicken. Animal ears taste like dirt, crap, sweat, ear wax and other not-usually-eaten nastiness. BUT, I guess if you do it enough, you could acquire a taste for it. Hell, I acquired a taste for Scotch, Cognac, and Bourbon -- and at first those were nastier tasting to me. I like them all now. I still don't like the tast of beer or anchovies though.... I prefer ears to anchovies!

Any further questions?

http://www.TheRuralSpecialist.com
__________________
We help people relocate to Rehoboth Beach Delaware.
Our Site:
www.Kate-Jody.com
Jody Hudson is offline  
Old July 30, 2001, 01:36 PM   #17
eyeball
Junior member
 
Join Date: June 7, 2001
Posts: 84
thats sick!!!!!!! :barf:

i mean, i wouldn't want to catch AIDS or anything.
eyeball is offline  
Old July 30, 2001, 04:07 PM   #18
Erich
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 1999
Location: Albuquerque, NM, USA
Posts: 2,533
Right behind our house there are trails running along the foothills of the Sandia mountains. My wife and I walk there a lot. So do a lot of folks who disregard the law that requires dogs to be kept on leashes.

We've been attacked (not talking about playful jumps, I've had enough dogs to know the difference) a few times, always one dog clearly in the lead (typical). I generally carry something loud and lethal, but I haven't used it yet. Who needs the attention? It's nice to have something stronger available should it be needed.

I've used 10% pepper foam on a dog's face - broke off the attack, but not as quickly as the time I shot a pitbull in the street by our mailbox with 10% OC spray (I bought the foam thinking it would be less likely to blow back in our faces than the spray). Won't use it again.

I've whaled on a dog with a Monadnock Autolock baton. That works, but it's pretty short (22", I think). The dog owner freaked out on that one.

Nowadays I carry my CaneMaster gentleman's cane (helps out on downhills since I have a hip injury). 36" long hickory rod, which is enough to keep between me and the dog. I've whacked the snouts of dogs twice and pushed on the chests of a jumper. No one ever looked askance at it, and it kept them away from us until the owners arrived in time to take care of things (at which time I usually lose it with the owner). I always have a wicked knife of some sort on me: if a dog bit the end of the cane on a jab, I'd either shoot it or cut its throat. And Jody's first story made me re-think cutting the throat! Knowing how easy it is to break dogs' front legs, I've always considered the cane's crook as a possible method of attack, but I've never gone there.

I also have one of those Cold Steel sjamboks. If I get attacked this weekend, I;ll whale the dog with it and get back to you on its effectiveness. I think the owners might freak on that one, too.
Erich is offline  
Old July 30, 2001, 04:25 PM   #19
Spectre
Staff Alumnus
 
Join Date: October 23, 1998
Location: DC
Posts: 3,274
SHU

The percentage of the capsicum is not nearly as important as the Scoville Heat Units. Look for the highest SHU available. If the manufacturer doesn't list SHU, don't buy the product.
Spectre is offline  
Old July 30, 2001, 11:35 PM   #20
Rebeldon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 22, 2001
Location: Cowford
Posts: 361
I guess it would be a good time to have some beef jerky in your pocket.
__________________
Deo Vindice
Rebeldon is offline  
Old July 31, 2001, 02:52 AM   #21
Mort
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 17, 1998
Posts: 479
I've carried a rattan cane in the past (kind of odd for a young guy, but I've got a bad knee). It's a really strong material. Never had to whack a dog, but once I had to do the "I'm a bigger dog" thing with a bulldog. He was just a neat old fellow who was testing my mettle, so I whacked the ground in front of him full force (ready, of course, to ram the crook down his maw). It probably resounded for a mile around. He was impressed, felt that honor had been satisfied and let me pass.

Had he not been a good dog, I believe that the cane would have served well.

I favor impact weapons above spray because you have a full array of force options.
Mort is offline  
Old July 31, 2001, 05:08 AM   #22
KPS
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 17, 2001
Location: MA
Posts: 780
Fox Pepper Spray sell sprays with 5.3 million SHU's.The SHU's are what makes pepper spray effective, not the percentage of capscium.
KPS is offline  
Old July 31, 2001, 06:12 AM   #23
Oink
Member
 
Join Date: July 14, 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 20
Wish we could use pepper spray on animals here in Australia, maybe the Dingo wouldn't do it!!!!!........again.
__________________
"Wear short sleaves and support your right to bare arms"
Oink is offline  
Old August 2, 2001, 07:34 PM   #24
Mannlicher
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 8, 2001
Location: North Central Florida
Posts: 2,973
I have 4 Scotties, and walk them twice a day around the neighborhood. They are always on their leashes. My problems are with the other dogs that are not on leashes, but are let out, or get out. I carry an ASP, the long one, and at night my rechargable Maglight. I have had to use both on attacking dogs. I am not afraid of any dog, but holding on to two, and fighting off another is frankly, a real pain.

Many years back, It fell to me to help my brother in law clear a pack of ferral dogs out of the timber he cruised as a regional forest ranger. These dogs had killed one person and injured another. He used a Sweet 16 with BB shot, and I used either a .30 carbine, or a Ruger .44 semiauto rifle. Both of those worked fine, but the shotgun was awesome. A real nasty bit of business though.
__________________
Nemo Me Impune Lacesset

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.".........Ronald Reagan
Mannlicher is offline  
Old August 2, 2001, 08:32 PM   #25
sigmund
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 16, 2000
Location: Urbandale, Iowa
Posts: 346
As a couple of people mentioned above, the heat of the pepper spray, measured in SHUs, determines the effectiveness, including how fast it takes effect. The Fox spray is the only 5 million SHU spray I have ever seen. Most on the market are in the 1-2 million SHU range.

The percentage of pepper determines how long the effect lasts. In general, a 10% spray will be less effective than the Fox spray, but the burning and swelling will last much longer. So if you are using a low heat spray that just aggrevates the dog, the high percentage means that the dog will stay aggrevated longer.
sigmund is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:59 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13037 seconds with 7 queries