The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 24, 2001, 06:21 PM   #1
CWL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 23, 2001
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 1,576
Late Night Car Defense

Pulled a late-nighter at the office yesterday, didn't get out until after 12:30AM and I hadn't eaten all day. The only place open was a drive-thru burger joint in a bad part of town (where I live in Kali, 1-Bdrm condos still go for over $300K in the "bad" parts-so I wasn't out looking for trouble).

I'm usually pretty observant as to my environment, am aware of my 360, look in the rear view and side views, etc. but I'm still stuck in a car line and unable to move forward or back up if there's trouble. This is reality and I'm hungry.

Suddenly 5 rough looking hombres show up in my left & side view, thought I was going to have to put a few .45s into them. Anyways, it turns out that they were just getting back into the van in front of me after stretching their legs (I'm guessing here).

So here's the question, if things had gone bad. What would you do if your car was immobilized like in traffic and some BGs outnumber (5:1) you & surround your car? I know that I could have started blasting, but I'm more interested in tactical advice to help even the odds & better control the situation.
CWL is offline  
Old July 24, 2001, 06:59 PM   #2
Spectre
Staff Alumnus
 
Join Date: October 23, 1998
Location: DC
Posts: 3,274
Use your car as much as possible. In this case, you may have been immobilized, but there will be few situations where you won't be able to move your car at least a little.

What weapons do they have? Is their motivation known? (Obviously, if you just accidentally hit a child who ran in front of your car, you'll know why you're being surrounded.)

If possible, do not fire your weapon while inside your car*. Even if you are being threatened by someone with a handgun, it's probably better to let them shoot first, rather than attempting to shoot your own glass out (this can depend on distance; don't bank on it, if your assailant is two feet away, and "square" to your window). Auto glass has turned many bullets...

*if you value your hearing; extreme concussion can also stun
Spectre is offline  
Old July 24, 2001, 07:02 PM   #3
Navy joe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 28, 2001
Location: VA, USA
Posts: 1,803
The only observation I can make is 230gr. vs 3000+ lbs., its obvious use the car on them or the car you got boxed in by. Don't put yourself in the box to begin w/ even in a drivethru lane you can leave space, especially where the line curves around the building only a few feet are required to cut the wheels hard and get the hell outta dodge. Can't see the wheels in front of you, too close. If someone behind you gets irate over the 5 feet you could be moving up which will do them no good anyway, feed 'em fish heads, they'll have to get over it.
I also set my mirrors so there are no blindspots, to do so get your rearview where you want it, then lean your head against the side window while looking fwd and adjust the side mirror until you can barely see the side of the car in the mirror. Lean the same amount to the right and repeat. Wonderful for driving SA too, only caution is that it requires making a completely different scan pattern habit.
__________________
FY47012
Navy joe is offline  
Old July 24, 2001, 09:33 PM   #4
David Scott
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 11, 2000
Posts: 2,457
Obviously, keep doors locked, windows up at least part way.

Observation is the first "O" in the OODA loop, always scan the environment. If you think you're being followed, make some random turns, or pul into a parking lot and right back out again to confirm. If you ARE being followed, either drive to a police station or someplace public and full of people.

If you think you're under attack, lean on the horn, or if you have an alarm system set it off. Bad guys don't like attention.

Good advice from Navy Joe about leaving yourself some space. This is also why I don't like the middle lane if it's three lanes going one way. If I'm on the curb or median my F250 will get over them. I also like the F250 because its size and 460 V8 would let me out-ram most vehicles. If they pull up behind me they'll get a Class V trailer hitch through their grill before I evade.

If you truly are surrounded, and can't drive out, shoot the first guy that shows a weapon. Then shoot the second and so on. Your average street criminal doesn't expect armed resistance. They may back off if it looks too costly.
__________________
"As I looked at my two young sons, each with his gun, and considered how much the safety of the party depended on these little fellows, I felt grateful to you, dear husband, for having acquainted them in childhood with the use of firearms."

-- Elisabeth Robinson, in The Swiss Family Robinson by Johann Wyss
David Scott is offline  
Old July 24, 2001, 11:03 PM   #5
PreserveFreedom
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Using your car for defense is the best advice. A few 230 grain chunks of lead might stop a guy in his tracks, but a chrome bumper pulverizing his kneecaps will stop him and keep him where he lays.
 
Old July 25, 2001, 01:01 AM   #6
LoneStranger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 5, 2000
Location: Lawrence, KS
Posts: 576
Would like to put out a caveat on advice about going to police station if being followed. In Metro Kansas City area within last 30 days(?) a young man went to the police station while being followed. Only problem was that the police weren't home when he got there. BG killed him in the parking lot of the police station while he was attempting to find police.

If interested I will see if I can find a link for this. Was on TV news.
LoneStranger is offline  
Old July 25, 2001, 01:45 PM   #7
CWL
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 23, 2001
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 1,576
Thanks for the reminder about shooting thru glass as well as potential concussive issues -have to give this some thought, although I'm not sure about letting someone take the first shot.

This is real and happened to me 2 nights ago. Yes I think I was being observant and doing everything I could have done. I was already in "condition orange" and went to "red" the second I noticed 5 potential BGs appearing.

There were 5 people, (6 counting the driver of the van) coming at me. They appeared from my left side AND left rear (visible thru side view only). I did maintain maneuver space in front of me but this drive thru happened to be next to another building with no room for escape on either side. There were several cars behind me. This is why I used the word "immobilized".

If I was in a position to use my truck to escape, I would have. If there were only one or two or they all came from the front, I am conditioned to respond.

If this went bad, and they were armed, I think that I would have been screwed. I just can't think of a way out of this without violence. I know that I could have shot the two next to me and hope that the noise & response would scare/deter other BGs, but the ones in back would have had nice clean shots (thru glass) at the back of my head.

I'm looking for something more "winnable" here.

By the way, just found out that someone was murdered in that neighborhood the prior weekend.
CWL is offline  
Old July 25, 2001, 02:21 PM   #8
Spectre
Staff Alumnus
 
Join Date: October 23, 1998
Location: DC
Posts: 3,274
Pull forward. Cut wheel. Reverse out and to the side. Keep your head down, act decisively, and never quit. The chances of someone making a good hit on your head through glass while you're driving toward them are slight.
Spectre is offline  
Old July 25, 2001, 02:33 PM   #9
Byron Quick
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Waynesboro, Georgia, USA
Posts: 2,361
I seldom do the drive thru thing...don't like them and am paranoid while in them-aren't I, Spectre? That's my advice-avoid them, especially ones such as you describe. Plan ahead for food when working late.


I don't avoid bad areas per se. If a bad area is between me and where I want to go, I drive through it. I do avoid mousetraps though. You were in a mousetrap.
Byron Quick is offline  
Old July 25, 2001, 03:43 PM   #10
Spectre
Staff Alumnus
 
Join Date: October 23, 1998
Location: DC
Posts: 3,274
Note to self: do NOT go through packed Krystal drivethrough with Spartacus at 0330 ever again!
Spectre is offline  
Old July 26, 2001, 03:47 PM   #11
Jay Baker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 26, 2000
Location: S.W. Idaho
Posts: 1,294
A suggestion: Some posters have advised driving to a police station for help.

Actually, in most cities, there are not nearly as many cop stations as there are fire stations. If it were I, I'd try and find a fire station, pull right up to the door and lay on the horn. I guarantee you you'll get some people coming out to help. (And unbeknownst to many, some fire fighters carry guns.)

As I said, a suggestion. J.B.
Jay Baker is offline  
Old July 30, 2001, 03:48 AM   #12
Glamdring
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 23, 2000
Location: MN
Posts: 1,388
Couple of ideas of what you can do to prevent being in such a tactical disadvantage next time. These aren't solutions but they could help. Could also make things worse in some situations.

1) Keep "emergency food & water" in your car or in your office for that matter. Having a 72 hour kit in your car makes good sense, and if your in Kali I would think earth quake kit at the office makes sense also.

Power bars, dried fruit, nuts, and/or gorp are good choices and probably better for you than a gut bomb You can also keep a reserve supply of "instant meals" at home that you can just throw in microwaze.

Think about Lions and other predators, don't they stake out water holes and such to make "hunting" easier? If this is the only food joint open late in the area then you can be sure all the local goblins are aware of the fact. Or in other words it is a know danger area.



2) You could add spot lights to your car, like police squad car, you would want the ones mounted on car not handheld things. You can use these to blind goblins from front or side just like a cop does with a stop. You could also add high intensity lights on front and/or rear bumper [or corners of bumper, etc] pre aimed and all wired to a panic switch.

You can use lights to provide concealment at night.

Can also add PA system or loud [air] horn, though you might be a redneck If you have a 4x4 and have an air compressor easy enough to add air horn.

3)
Glamdring is offline  
Old July 30, 2001, 10:20 AM   #13
Anthony
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 29, 1998
Location: Dallas, Texas (United States)
Posts: 416
Hello Everyone,

My personal advice would be not to use the drivethru in the first place. When I go out at night to get a bite to eat at a fast food place I scan the area, park near the door, and walk inside with my hand on my backup gun (S&W M-640 Centennial with FBI loads). Once you have placed your order you can have a seat someplace you can watch what is going on outside.

Now you have distance and time on your side. You also have made yourself a tough target by going into a lit building with multiple witnesses. Most BGs would leave you alone at this point.

The only scenario I ever had similar to this was when a friend and I were leaving the late show at a theater around 1:00 A.M. and this car full of scruffy youths parked next to my car just as we exited the mall. As it was the only car left near this door they knew which one was ours.

My friend, who is not very tactically smart, decided to walk to the car before I could stop him. So I walked a different root to make it harder for them to get both of us. They looked rather confused. Realizing we still had a disparity in force and we were coming closer and closer to them I swept back my jacket and put my hand on the butt of my Smith & Wesson .41 Magnum while looking at them and waited.

One of the prospective BGs said something to the other rather nervously and the car started up promptly and they sped away. No one else saw anything so we got in the car and left. Although I normally do not recommend brandishing a weapon the criminal intent here was so obvious with everything in the mall being closed and they obviously did not have car trouble as they drove up as we exited the building.

- Anthony
Anthony is offline  
Old July 30, 2001, 09:24 PM   #14
Hardtarget
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 3, 2001
Location: Nashville, Tn.
Posts: 683
Drive-through Dangers

You are all thinking correctly about drive-through dangers. I have a friend whose Sunday ritual was a trip to Long John Silver's for sweet rolls. He was stabbed in the neck while sitting in line. In all honesty...he was in "condition white"...the guy walked right up on him without being seen. Surprisingly, my friend survived.A bad scare and good, hard lesson for us.
Mark
Hardtarget is offline  
Old July 31, 2001, 07:34 PM   #15
Rebeldon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 22, 2001
Location: Cowford
Posts: 361
Once, when I was driving through an "urban" area at night, a man stepped out into the turn lane and tried to stop me as I merged into the lane to turn right. My first impression was that he was just drunk, so I slowed down to avoid him, but then it became clear to me that he was intentionally trying to stop my car. I was unable to change lanes because of the traffic to my left so I had to stop to avoid hitting him. It was at this point I put my hand on the grip of my Ruger P97. He made a quick move to the passenger side of my car and he tried to get a hold on my door handle. Since he was no longer in my way, I just floored it and left him standing there. If he had opened my door, I think I would have wet my pants. And then think I would have shot him. He may have been drunk or strung out on drugs, but I don’t think he had anything wrong with him that a cranialectomy could not have cured.
__________________
Deo Vindice
Rebeldon is offline  
Old August 1, 2001, 06:57 AM   #16
David Scott
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 11, 2000
Posts: 2,457
Rebeldon,

Did you not have your doors locked?

Is anyone besides me irritated by the way some vehicles' electric door locks automatically UNLOCK when you put it in Park or shut the key off?
__________________
"As I looked at my two young sons, each with his gun, and considered how much the safety of the party depended on these little fellows, I felt grateful to you, dear husband, for having acquainted them in childhood with the use of firearms."

-- Elisabeth Robinson, in The Swiss Family Robinson by Johann Wyss
David Scott is offline  
Old August 1, 2001, 08:21 AM   #17
rc2bear
Junior Member
 
Join Date: August 1, 2001
Location: Texas
Posts: 3
Just a quick note concerning the firehouse, even if none of the firefighters is armed, 30 and 36 inch Holigan tools work wonders, especially when the spike is presented during its haymaker presentation I'm sorry. That looked like it hurt.

aka: Do not have your turf war in front of the station and try to hurt the nice police officers. Two task forces trumped the party Even better, no reported injuries
rc2bear is offline  
Old August 1, 2001, 12:53 PM   #18
Rebeldon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 22, 2001
Location: Cowford
Posts: 361
Doors locked? I'm not sure, David.

I don't really know if my door were locked or not. I do remember pressing the electric door lock just after I turned. I didn't check to see if they were locked first. It was just an after the fact reaction. I would bet they were not locked. I have a habit of turning the key twice when I unlock the car, which unlocks all the locks. Up to that point, I did not have a habit of re-locking the car. I do now!
__________________
Deo Vindice
Rebeldon is offline  
Old August 2, 2001, 07:02 PM   #19
Mannlicher
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 8, 2001
Location: North Central Florida
Posts: 2,973
David said:
Is anyone besides me irritated by the way some vehicles' electric door locks
automatically UNLOCK when you put it in Park or shut the key off?

hey, my 1976 F-100 has the old fashioned kind if locks. It also has a pocket just under the seat for my .45 Commander.

Seriously, down here in Miami, many fast food places do channel you around the building between high curbs. Not many of today's autos can climb curbs. Leaving a car length between you and the next guy will just get a horn blown at ya. I just stay out of the drive through lanes all together. Besides they get the order wrong most of the time.
__________________
Nemo Me Impune Lacesset

"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.".........Ronald Reagan
Mannlicher is offline  
Old August 2, 2001, 08:10 PM   #20
Rebeldon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 22, 2001
Location: Cowford
Posts: 361
They #@%! you at the drive through!
__________________
Deo Vindice
Rebeldon is offline  
Old August 7, 2001, 10:18 AM   #21
JB-man
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 1, 2001
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 117
Unless you are deaf, I probably wouldn't let my Glock go loose... as it's bark is just as bad as its bite!
That's where that new taser might come in handy. It'd get the bad guys out of and away from your car (at least the biggest guy)
Then, and only then, if you can't peal out of there, at least you have an opening to get out with your defender, to take care of the rest..... or run, and get your car later?
JB-man is offline  
Old August 10, 2001, 10:01 AM   #22
RazorsEdge
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 11, 2001
Location: Dallas
Posts: 207
If being followed, drive to donut shop, where you will find LEOs.
__________________
Descretion is the better part of WhupAss
RazorsEdge is offline  
Old August 18, 2001, 12:41 PM   #23
nbk2000
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 13, 2000
Posts: 216
A "feature" my used car came with was a passenger side door that can't be opened from the outside (because the handle is broken). A simple enough modification to make, because there's really no need for passenger side opening from the outside, that's what the driver should do from the inside.

It'd probably be good to get some window laminate film to strengthen the windows so they won't shatter from a brick or bat, just in case the BG is carrying one of these "universal car door openers".

Last edited by nbk2000; August 19, 2001 at 07:31 AM.
nbk2000 is offline  
Old September 6, 2001, 11:55 AM   #24
hercules
Member
 
Join Date: July 4, 2001
Location: SC
Posts: 69
Spectre:
Quote:
If possible, do not fire your weapon while inside your car*. Even if you are being threatened by someone with a handgun, it's probably better to let them shoot first
Uhh, this is indeed not a very smart thing to do, unless you want to be the first dead......Once you see a gun pointed at you by a BG, and you're inside car, outside car, wherever, I don't care, I WILL open up, while on the move, if possible, toward cover, if possible. You certainly don't have to get shot half to death or completely to death first to justify self defense.
hercules is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:43 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13225 seconds with 7 queries