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Old July 29, 2001, 09:00 PM   #26
ninenot
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Well, so far Peach and his defender have demonstrated two things: they don't know history, and they cannot spell English. As to 'the government doing things for us,' which seems to be the foundation for their skepticism about full-auto possession: it's never a question of 'for us;' it' s always a question of 'to us.' Let me explain.

The Government, in a sane society, is merely a guarantor of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness for its citizens. Thus, the Government's principal internal duty is to post the civilian version of the 10 Commandments, and equitably enforce them. Its principal external duty is to preserve the nation against foreign enemies.

Having said that, the citizens thus allow the Government to do certain things to them. Tax them for defense; regulate their behaviors, etc. Government should NOT do anything "for" the citizen--because most likely in doing "for" one, it is doing "to" another. In other words, this can become inequitable.

There comes a point, and we know not exactly when, when the Government's 'doing to,' equitably, becomes 'doing for,' usually INequitably. That point occurred in America around the time of FDR, and has gotten steadily more and more intrusive since, almost on a parabolic scale.

I am not an anarchist; but when in comes down to my Government or my family, there's no choice. And when Peach and his friend get old enough to have a family to provide for and defend, I hope they understand our posts.
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Old July 29, 2001, 10:28 PM   #27
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Owning weapons, in whatever form, is not an entitlement that the government of the United States grants us.

It is a right, specifically a right to self-defense and to insure freedom from tyrannical rule, that we have inherited from the Fathers of this Country.

All rights evolve from power, even the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. When the government - or it's minions - try to dictate to free men what rights they have, then free men have the right to say no, and create a different goverment.

That's what the RKBA does : gives free men the right to say "no" and the power to back it up.
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Old July 30, 2001, 08:00 AM   #28
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Some of you live in caves types

There are different kinds of caves in which to live. One of the worst is that in which most of America lives - the cave of ignorance. Knowing little or nothing of history, little or nothing of political philosophy, and getting most, if not all, of their 'knowledge' of current events from the mainstream media. This is a dark cave, indeed. Many who call themselves conservative live here.


Something that rarely lives in such a dark place is logic. For example, such a cave dweller is likely to hear, "Government should be limited, as the tendency is always toward tyranny." And the cave dweller will think what has been said is, "All government is bad, and we shouldn't have any."


Something that is NEVER found in such places is TRUTH.
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Old July 30, 2001, 09:35 AM   #29
tire iron
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shiroikuma,

As was stated above, owning cars is a PRIVILEGE granted by the government. They can legally regulate privaleges.

Owning FIREARMS of ANY variety is a RIGHT. The government cannot LEGALLY regulate a right.

There is a huge difference between rights and privileges.

cheers

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Old July 30, 2001, 04:35 PM   #30
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I'm sorry. I didn't know you needed a fully automatic weapon to protect your family. You'd have to be a really bad shot to need one. But anyways, are you expecting about 10 people to break into your house anytime soon, because otherwise, there's no need for a fully automatic weapon for home defense. It's been stated numerous times that their only purpose in civilian ownership is for recreation, and recreation definetly doesn't include home defense. And hey, for all you revolutionary types, why don't you start another revolution since your rights are being trampled. Obviously our government is doing nothing for you, so it's worthless. Might as well start a new one. Now that's something I'd like to read about in the newspaper. Oh, and another thing tire iron, the government dictates what is legal and what isn't. Without a government there is no defenition of illegal and legal. Everything just is, so you might want to think about rewording that.
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Old July 30, 2001, 05:17 PM   #31
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And hey, for all you revolutionary types, why don't you start another revolution since your rights are being trampled. Obviously our government is doing nothing for you, so it's worthless. Might as well start a new one. Now that's something I'd like to read about in the newspaper
First, there are cases in the court system at several levels addressing exactly these rights. Rational free men use their rights as they were honestly intended. Right now, American's First Amendment rights are being exercised in an effort to preserve/re-establish the Second Amendment.

Second, starting a new government isn't necessary, IMHO. Just needs a tune-up, clean out the built up gunk that's been layered on over the years.

Third, I hope you'll always be able to read about things like this in your newspaper. When you can't, it' s too late.

As I said above, rational free men are exercising their rights. Preservation of your right to promote anarchy, as you did above, is also being defended. It's just a shame you're unable to appreciate that and what's required to preserve that right for you.
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Old July 30, 2001, 06:51 PM   #32
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Apeach,

IF you knew history, you would realize that the government gets its power FROM the people. At least it was set up that way over 200 years ago. As stated so well above by chetchat and CaptainHoek and others, the Government CANNOT do ANYTHING for someone WITHOUT FIRST TAKING IT FROM SOMEONE ELSE!!

As Thomas Jefferson stated "anyone that would give up a little freedom for (supposed) security - deserves neither." {The word in parathesis is part of the original statement.} You apparently fit that catagory.

So, in your world if the Government makes the laws, and it is your "duty" to obey those laws - what will you do when guns are outlawed? What about if they make it a law to turn in your gun owning friends? What about if they make it a law to discriminate against others because of race, religion, creed other some such catagory?

Apeach - the Nazi's were successful BECAUSE people in Germany had the same attitude towards government as you do.

We are supposed to "always view government with a jaundiced eye" - the advice of our founders.

So - I will NOT re-word my statement. Just because the government MAKES the laws - does not make those laws "right". We the people have the responsibility to change those laws through peaceful means. IF those means prove ineffectual, then we have the responsibility to use less savory means.

"The tree of liberty must be sprinkled from time to time with the blood of tyrants and patriots" - Thomas Jefferson

Believe me - I am not an advocate of armed revolution. It is mine (and should "our" collective) goal to turn this government around by any and all peaceful means. And I hope that I go to my grave, and my children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren et al, go to their graves without having to use arms. But the option MUST be there - or the threat is hollow.

cheers

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Old July 30, 2001, 09:14 PM   #33
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It's been stated numerous times that their only purpose in civilian
Stated by whom, and so what? What you obviously don't understand it that firearms ownership is a RIGHT, and doesn't require that any "need" be proven to justify that right.

And, for the record, the purpose of civilians owning arms, stated to be so by the Founding Fathers (whom you obviously have NOT read) is to do just what you have suggested - to carry out a revolution, should that become necessary.

As tire iron and chetchat have ably pointed out, that time is not yet, and many of us are using the system to attempt to reform the system.


As for the government "doing" something for us - the Constitution spells out clearly the duties and the limits of the Federal government. It has several legitimate functions, for example, defending from foreign attack. If it would stay within it's Constitutional boundaries, there would be no talk of revolution, for there would be no cause for it.

But the Founding Fathers were wise enough to know that power corrupts, and that the tendency of government is always towards tyranny. They therefore recognized (not granted) the right of the people to take up arms to counter such tendencies. Obviously, then, they intended the ordinary citizens to have arms of military significance, not merely for recreation or personal self defence.


May I suggest you begin getting aquainted with American history? You could start by reading the Declaration of Independence. (That was the document that formally declared the independence of the American colonies from England.) Then you might read the Constitution, then perhaps the Federalist Papers. (The Fed Papers were political tracts written by some of the Founding Fathers. In them they expressed their views on why the Constitution should be ratified by the States. They carefully explain the reasons for setting up the Federal government in the manner specified in Constitution.)

Who knows? You might even come to appreciate freedom, and learn to value our Constitution for the freedom it provides, rather than valuing our bloated, criminal central government for what it can "do" for you.


"Ask not what your country can do for you, aks what you can do for your country." And that, from a Democrat.




"Tire Iron". I like that. A different kind of weapon. Not much range, though.
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Last edited by Quartus; July 30, 2001 at 09:36 PM.
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Old July 30, 2001, 10:22 PM   #34
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I'm sorry. I didn't know you needed a fully automatic weapon to protect your family.
This sort of statement is becoming so commonplace in our society that it's nearly cliche.
Far too often I hear people say that 'No one needs X, that's just excessive.'

Where X refers to V-8 engines, SUV's, cargo pants with 37 pockets, standard capacity magazines, dual-processor computers, full-auto weapons, or 6-figure incomes.

The thing is, that rights are not based upon what another individual's perception of your needs are.

As soon as you start limiting things based on what you think another person needs, you begin to encroach on their freedom.
(I strongly suggest you go read some Ayn Rand, she cuts right to the chase in this matter. Start off with 'Atlas Shrugged.')
After all, the only basic right one has is to his or her life. But the means to that basic right is inexorably tied to property rights, or the ability for an individual to decide what is best for him/herself.

Without property rights, no other rights are possible, as they are the means to owning oneself and insuring one's life, liberty, and happiness.
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Old July 31, 2001, 09:17 AM   #35
tire iron
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Thanks CaptainHoek,

My monicker comes from my USMC days. I was a recon marine (2nd Force) from '85-'89. I know that makes me "old" now, but our platoom commander gave us all nicknames from a vehicle (he was really into cars). So the biggest, strongest guy that usually carried more than anybody else was "trunk", the smartest guy was "computer chip", the pack rat of the outfit was "glove box", the fastest runner was "speedometer" etc. I happened to excell at the combative skills (armed and unarmed) - so I was named "tire iron". Kinda stuck.

cheers

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Old July 31, 2001, 08:09 PM   #36
Quartus
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I was a recon marine (2nd Force) from '85-'89. I know that makes me "old"
Ha! Yer just a kid!


I did my time (Army) from 74-78.



Say, think we need a troll graphic for ole Peach?
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Old August 1, 2001, 12:05 AM   #37
tire iron
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CaptianHoek,

LOL!!!

Hey, were you at the shoot on Friday? Maybe we met and did not know it. After reading your post I thought, that would be cool to meet this guy sometime. Then I noticed you live in the same great patriotic state I do. Cool. BTW, where does "CaptainHoek" come from?

cheers

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Old August 1, 2001, 09:43 PM   #38
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Taken offline.
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Last edited by Quartus; August 2, 2001 at 09:29 PM.
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Old August 5, 2001, 06:21 PM   #39
OF
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Apeach & friend,

You have a lot to learn.

I suggest you both open your ears and your minds and close your mouths for a while. It is patently obvious from your posts that you are young and have either not been exposed to this information before, have been exposed and are terminally closed-minded, or are simply incapable of understanding the argument. I doubt the latter two. Not because of the fact that you disagree, but how you disagree and that the type of 'arguments' you are presenting are cliche and very much entry-level as far as understanding this subject goes. There is quite a bit to learn at TFL, read the archives and respectfully enter into polite discussion with the members here and you can learn quite a bit. At the end of it, if you still think we're wrong, then so be it. But lay off the attitude, it's annoying and will keep people from taking you seriously.

- Gabe
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Old December 28, 2001, 10:35 PM   #40
Jamie Young
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I just fired my first Full Auto an MP5

I took my time going from Semi to three round bursts, then Full Auto. I think for CQB 3rd burst are all you need. I now know how fast you can empty a 30rd mag and how much ammo you would waste with F/A. I would love to own an MP5 or AC556 but I don't think I would feel under gunned in 95% of Combat situations with just a plain old Semi Auto.
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Old December 29, 2001, 12:00 AM   #41
Quartus
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Ho, Soda Pop, talk about resurrecting a dead thread!

Fun shooting full auto, though, ain't it? Try an old grease gun - you'll feel like you ARE shooting a semi-auto! Very slow cyclic rate, ifn' you're used to an M-16. Ka-Chugga ka-chugga ka-chugga!
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Old December 29, 2001, 12:11 AM   #42
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There wasn't enough kick. I want to try something in .308 next.
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Old December 29, 2001, 01:29 PM   #43
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APeach & co., :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf: :barf:

Maybe you should try a more appropriate board for yourself.

Note to self: High road, high road, high road
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Old December 29, 2001, 07:24 PM   #44
Quartus
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Note to Edward: old thread, old thread, old thread...



Check the dates, dude! BTW, if you really want to, uh, be displeased (high road, high road, high road) do a search and read Ole Peachy's other posts. You'll find a 15 year old kid lecturing combat veterans.


SodaPop, whatever prompted you to resurrect this thing, anyway? But I sincerely hope you get to rock and roll with an M-60 (or other 7.62 squad automatic) someday.

Talk about a kick!
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Old December 29, 2001, 09:14 PM   #45
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Yea, it blows my mind to hear people talk like that. I read the thread and you guys laid down real basic sense to him and its like, he's oblivious to the truth. I guess he didnt pay attention in elementary school...and the sad part is he sounds like he's adamently sincere that he believes that tripe.

I guess I should thank the lord for what brains I've got, it could've been alot worse.
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Old December 29, 2001, 09:39 PM   #46
-Yo-
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Someone posted that one doesn't need full-auto to defend ones family. Well, yes, I suppose, if you're talking about burglers, though I wouldn't mind having a legal 14" barrel or "street-sweeper" style rotary shotgun.

But, the more important question is "will full auto help ensure that America does not sink into a totalitarian police state?" You betcha. We are already in a situation where people work from January through early May "for the government." This means that the average citizen give up more of his work product to the government than did serfs in the middle ages. California tells me I cannot sleep, smoke or drink wine in a public park, or walk my dog on certain beaches. I can be thrown in jail for insulting a "protected class" (i.e. women), and the government can, under existing executive orders, seize my property or displace me from my domicile without a court order.

But for the good fortune that our leaders haven't entirely abused the powers they hold, we haven't become a totalitarian society...yet. But, historically speaking, we are becoming more and more like the Soviet Union under Stalin. If the Russian people had access to machine guns and bazookas, perhaps 10-15 million of them would not have been slaughtered by their own government.

Can't happen here? Are you really so sure?

The government maintains the edge in power through a standing army (something the founders feared), and now a vast centralized network controlling our financial resources. The people need all the tools available to resist tyranny.
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Old December 30, 2001, 06:02 AM   #47
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Yo! You nailed it, Yo!
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Old December 30, 2001, 11:46 AM   #48
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All except for the Streetsweeper. Stay away from them, they're junk!
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Old December 31, 2001, 10:15 PM   #49
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I was wondering what your reasoning and/or purposes for full auto were.
On the government form I just put something to the effect that I thought the gun was collectable.
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Old December 31, 2001, 10:44 PM   #50
Stainless
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I recently had my first experience with Dad's M16... I must say, it was a blast. And the oft-repeated phrase 'full-auto is the most fun you can have with your pants on' rings true.
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