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Old July 22, 2000, 01:52 PM   #1
45automan
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Hey guys yet another post. My local gun shop has a few of these guns for $150. Are they good guns? Any problems with them? I have heard that the firing pins are prone to breakage. Is this true? What is the cartridge this gun fires? 7.62???? My brother says these guns are called "armor drills"? Why? He says the round is going so fast that it can pierce soft body armor. Is this true? I think i want one for my collection but am not sure help here guys. Also if the CZ 52 could reliably defeat body armor wouldn't it be banned by now? This is an old design right? Thanks 45automan
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Old July 22, 2000, 01:54 PM   #2
Mike Irwin
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Yes, they're fine guns. Kind of crude, generally, but they're accurate and reliable.

Biggest problems is that dry firing will break the firing pin in VERY short order, so don't do it, and the mechanism can be somewhat frustrating to reassemble because it's quite complex.

Yes, at close range the rounds out of this gun apparently can defeat body armor. They have a small frontal area, and are going very fast, so the kevlar fibers shear.

The Czechs designed them to use a higher powered version of the 7.62x25 Soviet round.

$150 seems to be a decent price.

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Old July 22, 2000, 02:06 PM   #3
beemerb
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the shoot well and are fairly accurate.They don't jam.The cal isn't bad and can be handloaded with 110 gr plinker for the M 1 carbine.I know a guy useing one for pigs and swears by it.Surplus ammo is cheap from J&G in Prescott AZ.At 150 you can't go wrong.

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Old July 22, 2000, 03:20 PM   #4
Destructo6
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7.62x25 Tokorev will defeat most soft body armor. A table at www.makarov.com lists some surplus stuff that was clocked near 1500 fps.

The 52 is a little strange. The grip is almost 90 degrees to the bore, so you get the opposite effect as a Glock (ie points low vs high). The trigger has a habit of pinching your finger against the trigger guard, resulting in a blister after 200 rounds. The Czech subgun ammo will work in the CZ-52, but you'll get frequent hangfires and misfires. There is no slide release, but a replacement slide catch, with a release knob, can be had from Federal arms or from www.makarov.com .

The "accuracy dot" thing is a myth, so don't get worked up about it.

Replacement firing pins and pin block can be had from www.makarov.com that are both more robust and will improve the trigger.

Ammo wise, I've had good luck with Seller&Bellot and the stuff that comes 70 rnds of brass cased ammo per cardboard box. Stay away from that stuff that comes 4x10rnd stripper clips and is laquered grey steel case.
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Old July 22, 2000, 04:16 PM   #5
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Destructo,

What do you mean by "accuracy dot"?

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Old July 22, 2000, 04:24 PM   #6
Jim March
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Many were converted stateside to 9mm Para. And somebody makes a firing pin with better metalurgy, that seems worth tracking down.

Somebody else liked my description of the Tokarev round: .25Magnum from Hell .

Basically, it's not great in the firepower-to-size comparison but it's not a bad ol' Commie .

Jim
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Old July 22, 2000, 04:27 PM   #7
Mike Irwin
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No offense, Jim, but the Tok. round is actually .30-caliber. Or is it .32? Hell, I can't remember now...

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Old July 22, 2000, 04:35 PM   #8
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I have never been able to find sourse data on 7.62x25mm and body armour.

All published load book data to date has been 25,000 cup pressures and is not as fast as the military surplus ammo [42,000 cup].

Polish ammo was 7 cents a shot delivered a few years ago, and I have shot allot of it. It varies from 1450 to 1550 fps, but always fires. The Czeck ammo is always 1550 fps, but misfires 5% of the time.

I consider the CZ52 to be one of my better purchases. It would cost $400 to make one today. If they were made today, they would be double stack mags and lighter.
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Old July 22, 2000, 04:48 PM   #9
Jim V
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They are a lot of fun to shoot at reactive targets. 7.62*25 Bangding, 9m/m bang ding, .45 bang bong.

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Old July 22, 2000, 05:07 PM   #10
45automan
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Hey guys this would be a car gun primarily,maybe a secondery carry gun would you trust your lifes to these guns? Are they as good as the Makorovs? As far as function? How good is this round at stopping someone? Will it just zip right through them? I would imagine that a high speed bullet like this would make a horrific wound,right?How is this gun for recoil? Muzzle blast?Thanks, 45automan

[This message has been edited by 45automan (edited July 22, 2000).]
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Old July 22, 2000, 06:11 PM   #11
Jim V
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Not a lot of recoil if I remember right, but the suckers are loud, a sharp crack. Not around you would want to fire in a closed room or car.

I would not feel under gunned if I had to depend on one. The Tok round is the same one used in the Russian PPsH 41 subgun and is hotter than the same sized round used in the Mauser C96 Broomhandle. You can use the Mauser ammo in the CZ52 but expect broken parts if you go the other way.

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Old July 22, 2000, 06:24 PM   #12
thestallion
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If it came down to it, with good ammo, I WOULD trust my life to mine. Very reliable (with good ammo, of course). I've shot Russian, Chinese, and Polish (?) ammo through mine without a single jam or misfire. A lot of the surplus ammo is corrosive or just generally dirty, but I have yet to have a single hangup. But I have heard of some junk stuff out there. I believe there are some hollow point bullets made for the .30 Carbine that can be loaded into the 7.62x25 or .30 Mauser cases. But the only brass I've seen that isn't Berdan primed is the new production S&B and the high priced Starline stuff. The S&B ammo can be found for a decent price. Magsafe also makes their defensive ammo in this caliber.
I haven't picked up a Makarov (yet), but the CZ-52 is a very reliable gun. Just be careful not to let the barrel go flying when you disassemble for cleaning...
I really don't think they would be a great choice for stopping power being a small caliber, but I think they would be suitable as a backup weapon.
As far as penetration, I did a little comparison between the 7.62x25, 9mm and .45 ACP shooting at a cast aluminum skillet. The 9 and .45 holes looked like someone hammered a spike through the metal, the 7.62 left a perfectly round hole that looked like it was made with a power drill.
The gun is a real attention getter. Recoil, noise, and muzzle blast make my 9mm seem pretty tame. I've heard it fits somewhere between a .357 and .44 as far as recoil.
If the bullet is running 1500 fps, I wonder how fast the spent brass is going as it rockets out of there. It really spits it out! might be handy if you are confronting BGs in front AND to your right Just a thought ...


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Old July 22, 2000, 06:48 PM   #13
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We chrongraphed some rds out of one and they ran at 1750 out of the CZ 52.Look at my other post for reloading the round.George is reworking a spanish destroyer carbine for me right now in this caliber.Should make a dandy little plinker.
I read an articale(sp) that Carlos the Jackel(terorist)carried a CZ 52.I guess if he had that that much confidence in it it is probably a good round and firearm.It is the only firearm that will shoot subgun ammo with no problems.Buy and injoy.
PS I took one apart and did a little stoneing on the sear and trigger.Helped the single action a lot.Couldn't do much with double action.Wish I knew of someone making a spring set for it.

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Old July 22, 2000, 11:04 PM   #14
Destructo6
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The safety isn't set up to be quickly disengaged, so I don't really see it as a daily carry gun. As a military sidearm that really doesn't factor greatly.

A guy over at the www.makarov.com discussion board claimed an acquaintance had witnessed a 7.62x25 penetration test on prisoners in a Russian gulag. They lined up several prisoners like phone books and fired a round from a Tok into the first guy. The bullet fully penetrated 3 guys and lodged in the fourth. This claimed acquaintance was the fourth man.

Whether true or not, I think the overpenetration possibility should be well tested before you carry it for use around town. Finding or loading good hollowpoints would be a very good idea.

The "accuracy dot" myth is that after CZ-52's were reconditioned, they were tested for accuracy and a number of "dots" were stamped into the top of the slide. The claim being: more dots = greater accuracy. The problem being that those "dots" were made as a result of hardness testing, not a measure of accuracy. I have "dots" on nearly every part (slide, hammer, firing pin, frame, etc) of my original condition CZ-52.
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Old July 22, 2000, 11:26 PM   #15
Mike Irwin
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Reloading information is kept light to make sure that someone doesn't stuff one of these rounds into a C96 Mauser.

The CZ 52 will take pressures that will turn a C96 into a grenade.

The CZs are made with what are generally considered to be modern steels and heat treating methods, the C96s with steels and heat treating of 100 years ago.

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Old July 23, 2000, 12:16 AM   #16
makarov
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I had one for a while in the original 7.62x25 round. It did jam on me once in a while. The slide and barrel assembly would lock up. It was a real pain in the ass to get un-jammed. I think it was related to the cheap russian ammo, it fed the Norinco stuff better. It was fun to shoot, but not 100% reliable. Just my one instance, others could be fine....

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Old July 23, 2000, 01:16 AM   #17
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Accurate #2 load book has the new CZ52 only 42k cup load data. This is much hotter than the other loads published at 25k cup. The 1913 fps with a Hornady 86 gr round nose is impressive.

Military and S&B loads were all 1550 fps and less.

Wolff has just come out with a new 18.5 pound spring for the CZ52 which complements the hot loads.

I think of CZ52 as the SKS of pistols. You would be missing something if you don't get one [at least one].
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Old July 23, 2000, 02:43 AM   #18
Jim March
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Doh! on my part regarding the bore.

Sigh.

Anyways...sounds like a hoot and a half. What's the mag capacity on these turkeys?

Jim
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Old July 23, 2000, 08:33 AM   #19
Clark
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http://www.makarov.com/cz52/
http://users.supernet.com/roo67/reloading.htm
The AA#9 1900 fps loads are now published in "Accurate #2"

[This message has been edited by Clark (edited July 23, 2000).]
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Old July 23, 2000, 08:47 AM   #20
old hawk
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mine drills a level 2 second chance vest at 75 yrds with hard plates,it will punch thru a bathtub side at 100 yards,not one jam yet and yes i carry it.i get czech subgun for 5$=50rds 8-12$ for norinco (yuk) standard 7.62.i went standard 9 x19 just for ammo availability/plinking if you check out this site for ammo youll find hollow points are available http://www.owlnet.com/quality/index.html.
more ammo below.......... http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ctd/d...td/default.asp http://www.centuryarms.com/ http://www.empirearms.com/ http://www.jgsales.com/
Centerfire Systems,
Inc(1-800-950-1231)......7.62x25 S&B
non-corrosive boxer primed in quantities of 1000, 500 or 50 rounds.
RTC Sports, Inc (1-800-686-7824).....7.62x25 Sellier&Bellot non-corrosive boxer primed in quantities of 1000, 500, or 100 rounds.
Gibbs Rifle Company (304)262-1651.....7.62x25 Czech lacquered steel cases in 2,280 rounds per case quantity.
need to call the cz company? here you go.....
CZ-USA P.O.
Box 171073 Kansas City, Kansas 66117-0073 Phone: (913) 321 1811 or (800) 955-4486 Fax (913)
321 2251 e-mail: czusa@gvi.net Staff names: Alice, Joseph, and Robert
info on manufacturer.
The CZ-52 was a short recoil roller locked pistol firing the 7.62mm (m-4 cartridge. It was designed by Jan Kratochvil and manufactured by Presne Strojirentsvi, Uhersky Brod, in Moravia. It carried the factory code "rid."(mine is a rid model! ) )
(Other post-WWII codes of this factory were "AYM," "tgf," and "she."
None of these codes were found on the CZ-52 pistols.) The Czech Army adopted the CZ-52 on May 17, 1952.

BARREL CONVERSIONS
ok the 2 numerals in the side of the frame denotes the year built:ie:52-55 etc means.the nid or rid means its a brno plant in czeck built pistol.the t on the barrel chamber means its been proofed and tested.crossed swords denotes service pistol.if your going to get a 9mm barrel ,do it,easy to replace ,just follow directions .first remove the slide,now find a drill bit to fit the hole on lock block,make sure to push both rollers in towards the middle and then pullit forward to muzzle and up you now can slide the barrel out.IF you get the 9x19 barrel theyre are some modifacations you must make to the extractor ;namely removing it from slide and then rounding the lower corner along the exposed length so it slides over the rim of the rd. ,thats it.done with mods.reinstall the extractor .the 9x19 or 9x18 rounds are short in the magazine well with the caliber conversion barrel but the 147 gr.will work well in the cz as well as the 115 gr. 9mm ammo.so dont freak out when you stack the mag up and see a short round in a big mag space,they feed ok in mine no sweat.it works .i chose the 9x19 barrel purely out of availability and a wider range of loads given.some guys have made mag followers and blocked theyre mag walls with a 3\16th
strip but theyres no need for that.keep in mind that now adays the 9x19 nato is the
cheapest to get in all the different 9 sizes for the cz.what i want is a barrel in 38 acp
colt for my cz52!..............
MOST IMPORTANT STAMPING MARK OF ALL
look for a Z stamping on the trigger gaurd.this means its had the new hammer decocker safety installed ,if not and its a century arms piece ,send it to them after a phone call they will do the fix and send back for free. theyre have been reports of cz's going off when lowering hammer with decocker method.its on either side of the trigger gaurd near grip. for you tokarev shooters of the t33 heres a 9mm barrel conversion from sks man 40$!!!!!
www.sksman.com/access/tokarev.html
this is from mikes site.....

After WWII the Czechoslovakian Military was looking for a first class military sidearm. Trials were held beginning in 1948, and several prototypes were tested including some in 9mm parabellum. None of the early prototypes were found to be acceptable and in 1950 Ceska Zbrojovka (Bohemian Arms Factory) concentrated it's efforts on a design based on the Russian 7.62x25mm caliber.
Initial tests in 1951 on this design were also unsatisfactory. An improved pistol was tested again in early 1952 and was adopted by the Czech Armed Forces in May of 1952 as the Model 52 (or CZ- 52). The contract for the Model 52 began in 1952 and was completed in 1954. Exact quantities produced are unknown but estimated at between 200,000 and 220,000 pistols. The Model 52 employs a roller locking system thought to have been inspired by the German MG-42 machine gun. Roller locking designs have also been used successfully for years on many Heckler and Koch rifles but are seldom seen on pistols. The Model 52 has a three position frame
mounted safety lever. In the downward position a red dot is visible and the pistol is ready to fire. In
the middle position the safety blocks the trigger bar and engages the hammer rebound notch. In this "safed" position the pistol can be carried cocked & locked or safely unloaded. Pushing the lever all the way up decocks the pistol. The magazine is held in place by a lever at the bottom rear of the magazine well. There is no magazine safety. Originally manufactured with a nice light grey parkerized finish many CZ-52's can be found on the surplus market with a dark blue (hot dipped)finish. These pistols were part of a refurbishment program in the late 70's and can also be identified by the letters "VOZ" plus the year of re-work stamped above the trigger. The CZ-52 is a great shooter, and right now there is an abundance of surplus ammo available. Norinco makes a steel case non-corrosive (so they say) commercial ammo. I found it to be a bit anemic, and I have heard that steel cases are tough on extractors. I haven't tried the Chinese
military surplus but I doubt that it's much different than the commercial stuff. My favorites are the Bulgarian and Polish surplus. The lots that I've had were brass case, very clean, surefire and cycled my pistols flawlessly. The Czech ammo is also available and it's loaded much hotter than
the rest. It's lots of fun and the CZ-52 was designed around this load but it's still a little disconcerting to see your pistol turn into a flame belching hand cannon. I don't feed my CZ's a steady diet of the Czech ammo for fear of excessive wear. Virtually all the surplus in 7.62x25 is corrosive, but don't turn your nose up at corrosive ammo like many people I talk to at gun shows do. It's priced right, and if you clean your gun shortly after shooting it will be fine. I pull the barrel out and run it under hot water while pushing a soapy brush through it. After I'm done the warm barrel dries quickly and I lightly oil it inside and out. The CZ-52 is a typical piece of Czech quality workmanship, it's fun to shoot, and right now they are
plentiful and inexpensive. If you don't get one now you may wish you had once they all disappear. NOTE---Be careful of the firing pin. It's cast steel and will last indefinitely under normal usage but if
subjected to repeated dry firing may break prematurely.
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Old July 23, 2000, 08:52 AM   #21
old hawk
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mine hold 8 in the mag one in the pipe makes 9...........
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Old July 23, 2000, 11:34 AM   #22
Clark
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I got a letter from Ted Curtis at Accurate. They tested various military 7.62x25mm ammo for pressure. They tested:

"ammo from China, Russia, Austria, Bulgaria, and the Czech Republic. Commercial ammo produced by Sellier and Berloit was also tested. Based on these test results we arrived at a maximum pressure for our load data of 42,000 C.U.P. Only the single lot of Russian ammo was signifigantly below this pressure averaging 32,000 C.U.P. The consisant pressures between all other types and manufacturers was a welcome surprise. Indeed, the fact that Czech ammo, made for the CZ52 pistol, produced the same pressure as that of the other countries was perhaps the biggest surprise of the whole project. This inspite of the 'tribal lore' regaurding this particular handgun and ammo loaded for it claiming that shooting Czech ammo in any other firearm so chambered will cause spontainious dissassembly. The presure data produced by the ammo tested certainly doesn't support this theory."

The 1913 fps AA#9 loads Accurate sent are now published in "Accurate #2" load book.
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Old July 24, 2000, 11:37 PM   #23
tatters
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I bought my CZ-52 on a whim. My best friend asked me to look into them, as he was interested in surplus guns, and had heard about the speed of the 7.62X25. I bought mine for 120.00 out the door a few years ago.
I consider my CZ-52 one of my "fun" guns.
Too big for me as a carry piece, I get it out once in a while just to shoot it.
Terrific muzzle blast and noise!!!
Mine seems to be fairly accurate, and they are very sturdy. I agree, this is the SKS of surplus handguns behind the Mak.

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Old July 25, 2000, 08:08 PM   #24
7th Fleet
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I bought my CZ52 last year for $100.00 with two mags and a surplus holster. Darned nice addition to the collection for the money spent.

7th

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Old July 26, 2000, 06:36 PM   #25
StephenT
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I picked up one of these today. Called my store about a CZ-52, and they just happened to have one. It was imported by Intrac Arms of Knoxville TN, and the X 54 towards the front of the trigger guard seems to indicate the year of production (serial number is 4 digits) Mine is blued and in great condition. This is one tough gun, built like a tank. I can't wait to go try it out and compare to the CZ-75 I've got. I wonder how the 7.62X25 round compares to the 9MM.
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