The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old July 5, 2001, 03:18 PM   #1
CBlackjr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2000
Location: San Deigo, CA, USA (Jamul area)
Posts: 132
The best way (tacticly) to enter a room with a handgun

here is the situation:

You need to enter a room with one other person. You don't have a flashbang or smoke.

You are armed with a handgun such as a sig, hk, or glock that has a lightattachment. the person with you has the same equipment.

There are anywhere from 1 to 4 people inside one. One of the persons is a non-hostile.

The hallway you are in is equally dark to the room you must enter. You can't look in the room because the door is closed. But you can see through the bottom of the door that there is equal light. The door can be easily opened buy a kick or a shoulder.

Tacticly what is the best way to enter, including stance, speed, position of firearm(at ready, or pointed at 45 degree angle towards ground).

When entering the room is it a better Idea to have the firearm light on or off? (if its on you're a better target)

If you and your partner decide one would cover right and the other would cover left would the person entering first engage a target that was on the left if his job was to cover right. I ask that question because if the person entering first would be covering left then right increasing the amount it would take to clear the room.

How would you guys enter.


||||||||||||||
||||||||||||||
||||||||||||||
----- ------
**

the * represent you and your partner. The open spot is a closed door.
__________________
HONOR ABOVE ALL
WE USED TO WORLD-PROOF OUR CHILDREN NOW WE CHILD-PROOF THE WORLD
CBlackjr is offline  
Old July 5, 2001, 06:29 PM   #2
tire iron
Member
 
Join Date: June 21, 2001
Posts: 48
Which way does the door open (I assume it opens to the inside of the room that needs assaulting)?

Which door frame has the door hinges? (I assume the hinges are on the left side of the frame - looking at the door from "our" perspective)

IF my above assumptions are true:

Look under door to try and gain as much intel as possible. Lets say because of carpet, etc. nothing can be seen under the door.

I also assume that it is impossible to see through any windows. Do we know where the phone(s) is/are located?

Can we have someone engage the bad guy/guys on the phone to aid in a distraction of our intention?

OK the assault:

#1 busts open door and takes anything that is "center" and sweeps right. He continues right taking the right side of the room while heading for right lower corner. During staging, the handgun is held in right hand in "close - guard" position while left hand/arm aids in getting door open.

#2 holds his Glock down at 45 degrees, pointed slightly "out" or away from #1. Care must be taken to not "sweep" #1 while in doorway.

#2 "button-hooks" and goes left, taking everything from center to left as he heads to bottom left hand corner.

LIGHTS ARE ON - UNLESS VISIBILITY IS GREAT ENOUGH TO SEE WELL WITH UNAIDED EYES.

Once inside, two handed grip would be assumed if possible. (Sometimes it is not, for you are having to move stuff aside (chairs, lamps etc.) to continue the assault.)

Violence of Action, Speed and Surprise are on "our" side, and the action will be so quickly over, that having the light on is not that big of tactical liability.

Remember to check out C3S (corners, closets, ceilings and stairs) before anyone anounces "CLEAR!".

Hopefully we won (all bad guys unable to harm others, and all good guys unharmed)!

cheers

tire iron
tire iron is offline  
Old July 5, 2001, 10:49 PM   #3
yorec
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 2, 2000
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 2,324
Trie iron's description is pretty close to what I've been taught, thorugh to enter with less then three is a no- no.

I would add lots of noise. Commands to "Police! Drop the weapon!" Sound a lot like "Please, drop the weapon!" to witnesses. The badguys just need to comply or get shot and a badguy who complies is unarmed and can't shoot you, whether you've had time to shoot him or not... The noise is also distracting and can be overwhelming if total surprise is achieved.
yorec is offline  
Old July 5, 2001, 11:15 PM   #4
IamNOTaNUT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 6, 2000
Location: Michigan
Posts: 477
CBlackjr -

A couple of questions regarding your questions.

1. Why are you assaulting the room?
2. Are the people inside armed and violent, intent on doing you harm?
3. Are you assaulting the room as a good guy or a bad guy?
4. Do you HAVE to go in against armed and violent people, have you any other options?
5. Do you have any control as to what time of day you make entry?
6. Is this a military or police operation, they have different rules of engagement.

The easiest question first - lighting. If you are going to go into the unknown, and engage a hostile target, you need to be able to see the target. Therefore, your tac-lights are on. You may also want to sweep the wall with your free hand on entry to activate a light switch. Your speed, training, and tactics should overcome the BG's ability to see you. Just remember, you can't hit what you can't see.

Don't use the light in the hallway prior to making entry so you don't give the BG's inside the room notice of your impending action.

The only other thing I will address without further info is a caution not to get too hung up on "I go right, you go left." The first person in the door should automatically address the most significant threat first, and the second person goes the opposite way.
__________________
IamNOTaNUT

I didn't do it, but I thought about it. Next time I might.

NRA
IamNOTaNUT is offline  
Old July 6, 2001, 12:48 AM   #5
PreserveFreedom
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Why not pull a fire alarm and cap 'em as they run out?
 
Old July 6, 2001, 01:49 AM   #6
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,425
I assume that the non-hostile person is someone you are trying to save? If so, then you are doing hostage rescue. Unless you have no other choice, call the professionals. If the non-hostile person is not important to you in some manner, why risk your life trying to perform a the task of dynamic entry for which you probably are not adequately trained?

Contrary to IamNOTaNUT, you can hit what you don't see. The problem there is that you may hit the non-hostile person and that may not be able to hit the targets you want to hit in an efficient manner. Spray and pray tactics work that way, but that also means you are firing without knowing your target or what is beyond your target. Remember, you are responsible for every round you fire and the consequences that result.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old July 6, 2001, 10:17 AM   #7
IamNOTaNUT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 6, 2000
Location: Michigan
Posts: 477
DoubleNaught Spy -

You are correct, sir, one can hit what one can't see. Heck, I used to lob 8-inch shells at targets miles away so I can't dispute that. In the military realm where the rules of engagement are very loose as compared to an LEO mission.

I made the assumption, perhaps incorrectly, that this was a hostage rescue type of mission, and under those circumstances it would be unwise to shoot without identifying the target, hence the requirement for the light.

If you go into the room intent on killing anything, spraying and praying, that is not hostage "rescue" in any sense of the term.
__________________
IamNOTaNUT

I didn't do it, but I thought about it. Next time I might.

NRA
IamNOTaNUT is offline  
Old July 6, 2001, 02:07 PM   #8
CBlackjr
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2000
Location: San Deigo, CA, USA (Jamul area)
Posts: 132
IamNOTaNUT

to answeer your questions;
1. Hostage rescue
2. Everyone in the room is considered armed and dangerous.
3. Good guy.
4. Time is a factor, so otion are very limited is any.
5. Just for this situation it would be night.
6. I would say police, but I am interested to know the military way.

yorec

how would the three man team enter the room?


Thanks for all you info people. The reason I ask is I am a range officer and often have the opportunity to debate tactics with a couple cop friends of mine, but I can't debate if I don't know much about subject. I have taken a tacticl police shooting course, but it didn't cover going in to rooms.
__________________
HONOR ABOVE ALL
WE USED TO WORLD-PROOF OUR CHILDREN NOW WE CHILD-PROOF THE WORLD
CBlackjr is offline  
Old July 7, 2001, 06:45 PM   #9
yorec
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 2, 2000
Location: Wyoming
Posts: 2,324
The three man team would work much the same way, with one hugging the right wall, a second following the left (doesn't matter which order) and the third splitting the room down the middle. The third man covers the entire room and is backup for either member to right or left. It's still the same theory as what tire iron described, but putting a third more offensive force into the room to deal with threat. We were taught that three could still get into the room and move effectively without getting shot - supposedly the reaction time of badguys isn't quick enough if they aren't ready for you. If they are waiting, someone's getting shot - that's why you take more with you. Better chance of overwhelming the shooter with several rapidly moving targets going in different directions and shooting back. It all hinges on if the good guys have surprise. Thankfully I haven't seen it in action yet.

Add a fourth guy for rear security and you've got the dynamic entry team being taught across the courty for active shooter scenarios.
yorec is offline  
Old July 8, 2001, 11:04 PM   #10
IamNOTaNUT
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 6, 2000
Location: Michigan
Posts: 477
Keep in mind the military method would be to kill all the enemy, unless they wanted to keep someone alive for intel or the like.

There are many military teams that train for the hostage rescue mission that you mention, but you also say that everyone in the room is considered armed and dangerous, so where are the hostages? If there are no hostages in the room, you really wouldn't need to go in would you?

Most military teams have the luxury of larger entry teams, though a smaller room will dictate fewer operators. I will refrain for addressing military tactics any further since that is not my background.
__________________
IamNOTaNUT

I didn't do it, but I thought about it. Next time I might.

NRA
IamNOTaNUT is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.09481 seconds with 7 queries