The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > Handloading, Reloading, and Bullet Casting

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old April 16, 2005, 06:04 PM   #1
mandark
Member
 
Join Date: April 13, 2005
Location: NH
Posts: 42
45ACP How far to push the envelope?

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.



With the N frame S&W revolver, namely Model 625, how Hot can I safely push the ACP cartridge. With the frame readily able to handle 44mag and 45 colt cartridges can some extra snot safely be had out of the 45ACP?

Right now I’m using what I call my standard Pin Load developed for use in my Kimber.

National Bullet 215gr SWC copper plated bullet. (Recently started binning to reduce velocity variations.)
Federal primers
Winchester Superfield 7.0 gr
Matched case lengths binned from 0.888 to 0.893 incrementally by 0.001 various head stamps.
OAL is 1.185 +/-0.003 due to meplatt variations.

Results stable to 25 yards have not gone beyond that to even see. My
application is 25 feet to take pins off the table, and manageable recoil.
Average velocity is 992 FPS with 5” Kimber. The math crunches to 466 Ft/Lbs and a power factor of 213. Recoil is tame compared to Remington UMC 230 Ball.

Out of the S&W 625
Average velocity is 983
The math crunched to 458Ft/Lbs
Power factor of 211

I was thinking on trying a wee bit hotter in the revolver only. But how far is a wee bit? The frame can stand a whole lot more but what about the cylinder?

This post edited and certain numbers removed - - Please see Moderator Notes post below.

Last edited by mandark; April 18, 2005 at 05:21 PM. Reason: Overlooked the safety disclaimer, now the rest of the numbers
mandark is offline  
Old April 16, 2005, 07:59 PM   #2
mbartel
Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2005
Posts: 77
Mandark-

The biggest problem with increasing the power of the .45 acp in a revolver is not the gun, but the bullets jumping the crimp. Since the case headspaces on the mouth, only a taper crimp can be used. In a semi-auto the bullets are prone to get shoved farther into the case from the nose impacting against the inside of the mag. In the revolver they get pulled out and can tie up the gun if they jump the crimp. With full case head support, you can go higher, but use caution and go slowly. I would recommend Power Pistol powder, as that is the best one to use for loading .45 super ammo. In the acp case this powder is stable and predictable from mild to wild. Follow published load data and you should be OK. But remember your Smith is not a magnum. It is not worth the risk of damaging your gun or yourself for a few extra fps.
mbartel is offline  
Old April 16, 2005, 08:51 PM   #3
CRUSHER
Member
 
Join Date: August 1, 2002
Location: Ky
Posts: 62
Heres the pin load I use in a Kimber:
Pin Load
255 LSW .452
5.0 W231
OAL 1.184
.469 crimp
825 avg fps
Power Factor = 210

It really slams the pins!
USE AT YOUR OWN RISK It has been safe for me.
__________________
"We do not rise to the level of our expections, But fall to the level of our training"
CRUSHER is offline  
Old April 16, 2005, 10:40 PM   #4
Leftoverdj
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 15, 2004
Posts: 934
But why?

It's a lot more where you hit them than what you hit them with. You can send them pins flying with .32 S&W Long and a center hit and just flop them with with full house .44 Mag and a bad hit.
Leftoverdj is offline  
Old April 16, 2005, 11:10 PM   #5
CaptainRazor
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2005
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 302
From my experience with 45ACP is:

After I started driving them above "pretty hot" to "damn hot", the accuracy tended to go away pretty quickly, not to mention they are unpleasant to shoot.
I am only speaking for Autoloaders that I have owned (1911's and more modern double action autos) I have never owned any wheels guns in 45.

There seems to be an area of loadings that shoot very good for the 45's I have owned. To slow, poor accuracy. To fast, same thing.

I found that anything over 900 fps with a 230gr bullet didn't seem to work so well for me.

Your mileage may vary.
CaptainRazor is offline  
Old April 16, 2005, 11:10 PM   #6
G56
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 10, 2004
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 302
It doesn't make any difference how sturdy the revolver is, you're still using the same brass, there's your limiting factor on pressures.
__________________
John
G56 is offline  
Old April 17, 2005, 07:41 AM   #7
mandark
Member
 
Join Date: April 13, 2005
Location: NH
Posts: 42
Ok G56, if I were to get some 45 super brass which is much stronger would it be reasonable to say I could approach super specifications. The cylinder on the revolver appears to support the case up to where the moon clip attaches, unlike in the Kimber where the ramp leaves an unsupported area.

From time to time I’ve seen brass like this at various ranges.
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...4&postcount=28
I never want any to eject from my firearms looking like this. That is why I’m seeking info wether someone else tested or proven a hotter recipe. This looks as if the case blew out in that unsupported ramped section of the barrel.

Leftoverdj, I’m not sure where 32 long compares to 45ACP nor 9mm, however I started this pin thing with a 9mm. Dead wood everywhere, not enough snot to move the pin back three feet, the pins need to be off the table in order to count.
mandark is offline  
Old April 17, 2005, 08:44 AM   #8
Johnny Guest
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: August 28, 1999
Location: North Texas
Posts: 4,116
Moderator Notes - - Posts Edited

Please see the top of this TFL Handloading and Reloading forum page and see - -

Sticky: REQUIRED READ for those posting Extra Heavy Load Information

This clearly sets out the requirements for posting loads above those listed in standard references and loading manuals. Members are NOT prevented from posting hot loads, but out of consideration for other members, and to protect TFL from legal exposure, all are REQUIRED to post Cautionary or Warning Notes.

Also note - - In that sticky, you are placed on notice that posts going outside the rule will be edited or removed without notice.

Thanks for your cooperation.

Johnny Guest
TFL Staff
Handloading and Reloading Forum

PS - - This is an interesting topic, so I'll leave it open for the time being, but, please, friends . . . .
JPG
__________________
MOLON LABE!
Amendment II ensures the rest of the Bill of Rights.

Blog: Expert Witness
Johnny Guest is offline  
Old April 17, 2005, 11:40 AM   #9
Zekewolf
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 2, 2005
Posts: 886
Revolvers don't headspace on the case mouth. Most die manufacturers make roll crimp dies for .45ACP. According to Starline, their +p .45ACP brass is stronger than their .45 Super brass.
Zekewolf is offline  
Old April 17, 2005, 01:23 PM   #10
CaptainRazor
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2005
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 302
So, you are saying that the 625 headspaces on what? The moonclip?

I never gave that much thought to be honest, I guess I kind of thought they had a stepped cylinder.
CaptainRazor is offline  
Old April 17, 2005, 05:40 PM   #11
CRUSHER
Member
 
Join Date: August 1, 2002
Location: Ky
Posts: 62
The load I mentioned is very accurate and mild to shoot.
The heavy bullet does the job with its mass. Not speed.
__________________
"We do not rise to the level of our expections, But fall to the level of our training"
CRUSHER is offline  
Old April 17, 2005, 08:55 PM   #12
mbartel
Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2005
Posts: 77
Zekewolf-

All .45 acp cases headspace on the case mouth. It does not matter if it is a wheelgun or a semi-auto. SAAMI specs determine this. Now some moonclips might hold the cases without them actually touching the chamber shoulder, but that is irrelavant. ALL rimless (not .22s) semi-auto handgun cases headspace on the case mouth. And I don't know of any die makers that make a "roll" crimp die for the .45 auto. It would be too easy for inexperienced reloaders to roll crimp their cases and try to fire them in a semi-auto. If a case was roll crimped and chambered in a semi-auto, and the firing pin managed to ignite the primer....Very high and dangerous chamber pressures would result, because the case would be wedged into the chamber and the case mouth would be jammed in past the shoulder. The die makers would be inundated with complaints from shooters, not to mention product liability lawsuits.. Maybe you are thinking of the .45 AR?...That case does headspace on the rim.
mbartel is offline  
Old April 18, 2005, 03:59 AM   #13
racenutz
Member
 
Join Date: May 23, 2004
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
Posts: 22
Quote:
I don't know of any die makers that make a "roll" crimp die for the .45 auto.
Redding does http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpag...eitemid=124288
racenutz is offline  
Old April 18, 2005, 05:59 AM   #14
mandark
Member
 
Join Date: April 13, 2005
Location: NH
Posts: 42
CaptainRazor
Think of the moon clip as the rim (as in 45AR, or colt) for all 6 cartridges. Without one I doubt the firing pin would reach initiating ignition.
mandark is offline  
Old April 18, 2005, 03:14 PM   #15
Leftoverdj
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 15, 2004
Posts: 934
"All .45 acp cases headspace on the case mouth. It does not matter if it is a wheelgun or a semi-auto. SAAMI specs determine this. Now some moonclips might hold the cases without them actually touching the chamber shoulder, but that is irrelavant.(Seems real relevant to me) ALL rimless (not .22s) semi-auto handgun cases headspace on the case mouth."

The Colt 1917 I owned at one time did not know that. A loaded cartridge would drop straight through the cylinder. My Star Super B in 9mm Largo don't know that either. It headspaces 9 mm P on the extractor and functions as well with those as with 9 mm Largo. I have stopped doing that because it's hard on the extractor and those are very difficult to find these days.

Btw, you fearless experimenters can make high strength .45 ACP cases by cutting any of the .30-06 family of cases to length. I'd use milsurp .308 for cost. You are on your own for data because the case capacity is smaller.
.
Leftoverdj is offline  
Old April 18, 2005, 03:18 PM   #16
mbartel
Member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2005
Posts: 77
racenutz-

If you will carefully read the description of the "roll" crimp die, you will see that it is not intended for cases that headspace on the mouth...aka .45acp

This die is meant for the .45 auto-rim only, and if you call redding they will tell you the same thing I did... just because Midway says it is for the .45 acp doesn't make it so...
mbartel is offline  
Old April 18, 2005, 05:57 PM   #17
Desert Dog
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 22, 1999
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 473
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

Even though the load below is within limits, I am still putting up the disclaimer...

The powder for hot .45 ACP is AA#7.

From the Accurate Arms loading manual, 11.0 grains is the maxload for a 230 grain bullet, and it exceeds 1000 FPS. I found the accuracy at 10.7 grains.

YMMV,
__________________
.45 Super... Fat and FAST... but for real firepower, .45 Blackhawk!

Yes, in fact I do have a 454... in more ways than one.

"No provision in our Constitution ought to be dearer to man than that which protects the rights of conscience against the enterprises of the civil authority" - Thomas Jefferson
Desert Dog is offline  
Old April 18, 2005, 07:33 PM   #18
mandark
Member
 
Join Date: April 13, 2005
Location: NH
Posts: 42
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.
Even though this post treads on reading between the lines of published data.


The powder for hot .45 ACP is AA#7.

From the Accurate Arms loading manual, 11.0 grains is the maxload for a 230 grain bullet, and it exceeds 1000 FPS. I found the accuracy at 10.7 grains.

Tell me more!

Any data let’s say for 215gr LSWC ???

So, 11.25gr AA#7 to drive the 215gr LSWC (splitting the difference between 200 and 230 published data’s) I should get 1000 fps . What are the benefits (thinking cost/gr vs. performance) to use a larger volume of powder?

Regards
Mandark
mandark is offline  
Old April 18, 2005, 09:52 PM   #19
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 10,244
This is an interesting discussion. The acceptable revolver pressures should be theoretically higher than standard .45 ACP pressures simply because the case is completely supported, which it is not in a standard 1911 barrel with no integral ramp. The case head is reasonably strong. The cylinder walls on the N frame revolver will be thinner than on a .44 mag. I would check with S&W on what the limits are, or else pull an Elmer Keith and just slowly work loads up until cases become difficult to extract, then back off a little.

Roll crimps were standard until taper crimp dies were invented. All my old Lyman and RCBS seating dies make roll crimps. Loading jacketed bullets, you just set the die up too high to crimp. 25 years ago a taper crimp die was always a separate operation after seating. Even .45 ACP wadcutters got light roll crimps, but were seated to headspace on the bullet. See an old NRA reloading manual if you don't believe it.

The taper crimp was first sold with the idea that it would let your brass last longer. Failing to crimp cast or lead bullets at all is risky, even for the 1911. Especially with old cases, whose work hardened mouths spring back after sizing and cease to grip bullets firmly. Some of these rounds, with no crimp, have their bullets pushed back into the case on their way onto the loading ramp. This makes for dangerously small powder space and can cause catastrophic pressures.

As for the pin gun load, I would look less to goosing up the ACP than to better bullet shape. Get a mold for a full wadcutter, since the revolver doesn't have to worry about feeding. This will have less tendency to deflect or over-penetrate. NEI's 220 grain .451-220-BBWC looks like a good revolver candidate. They also make 185 and 272 grain wadcutters if you want lighter or heavier weight? They have a 225 grain wadcutter, but its crimp groove is too far forward to leave adequate powder space in the .45ACP case, so I assume it is intended for the post-war .45 Long Colt.

If an indoor range requires enclosed bullets, I would go with the Hornady 230 grain FMJ/FP ENC.

If you calculate maximum loads for different bullet weights with a given powder charged to achieve equal peak pressures, momentum remains pretty constant in the .45 ACP round. You could try lighter bullets at higher velocity to see if they dump the energy any more effectively because their sectional density is lower?

About 5.5 to 6.0 grains of Vihtavuori Oy N330 looks extremely promising for 230 grain bullets in my internal ballistics program. This is seated .265" into a case with 27 grains of water capacity. These charges are within published load specifications, but work up slowly anyway. 900 fps + should result at safe pressures.

Nick
Unclenick is offline  
Old April 18, 2005, 10:38 PM   #20
BigBoreKindaGuy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 13, 2005
Posts: 175
CaptainRazor said "After I started driving them above "pretty hot" to "damn hot", the accuracy tended to go away pretty quickly, not to mention they are unpleasant to shoot."

The captain hit the nail on the head...when loading anywhere in the hot range for a 45 ACP the accuracy becomes a crap shoot. So what's the sense in it??
__________________
BigBoreKindaGuy
BigBoreKindaGuy is offline  
Old April 19, 2005, 05:24 PM   #21
CaptainRazor
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2005
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 302
OK, somebody please tell me. Does a S&W mod 625 headspace on the case mouth (like an auto) or on the rim/moonclip?

I feel like I should know this, but I don't, so that's why I'm asking.
CaptainRazor is offline  
Old April 19, 2005, 05:56 PM   #22
mandark
Member
 
Join Date: April 13, 2005
Location: NH
Posts: 42
Unclenick
The Elmer Keith approach can be exhilarating, I was kind of looking for a bit more base line data before attempting, thus the nature of this thread.

Indecently the National Bullet that I’m using has a wide meplat. This particular style has a 0.330-0.340” meplat.

Will your internal ballistics program accept the 215gr bullet weight? If so what would be the listed max charge. How clean is this powder?

BigBoreKindaGuy
Merely to get the full undivided attention of each and every pin cause they got it coming.

CaptainRazor
Good question,
Yes there is a step in the cylinder that could be the basis of theoretical specification. IMO it’s the moon clip. But according to the specs it’s the case mouth. I suppose IF I were to use brass at the max case length of 0.898” the case mouth may come in contact with the cylinder. Since I trim at 0.895 or longer down to 0.893 my reloads never quite seem to reach.
mandark is offline  
Old April 19, 2005, 11:18 PM   #23
brandx
Member
 
Join Date: December 8, 2004
Posts: 41
Can't help you with headspacing on a 625-2(haven't gotten around to owning one ,YET) , but on my 25-2 regular .45ACP would headspace on the case mouth and fire. However, without moon clips the star would not catch the rims and eject the cases, had to punch 'em with a dowel rod. My 25-2 is on my list of "Guns I wish I had never sold".
brandx is offline  
Old April 20, 2005, 11:56 AM   #24
Leftoverdj
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 15, 2004
Posts: 934
Back to the "sweet spot".

If a pin is hit on the center of mass, even with a dinky cartridge, it's going off the table. The .32 S&W Long to which I referred shoots a 90 grain WC at about 900 fps and every pin I ever hit in a zone slightly smaller than a pack of cigarettes went off the table. Same is true with .38 Special WC.

More powerful cartridges may have a slightly larger zone, but no amount of power is going to make up for bad shooting.
Leftoverdj is offline  
Old April 20, 2005, 12:53 PM   #25
mandark
Member
 
Join Date: April 13, 2005
Location: NH
Posts: 42
Leftoverdj
Come the fourth or fifth set, not to mention the sixth, the pins take on a whole different attitude. The ornery little buggers laugh in your face when they get heavy and don’t seam to role very well with welts. To slide one that’s laughing at you back 30”across the table top is no trivial task. This will not happen with a mere 161 ft/lbs of energy, unless the table is tilted. Lets not forget about a rusted steel surface that’s wet from rain and covered with sand or mud either. When pins are set along the back edge, well even the mighty 22 rim takes them off no matter where you hit them.

Last edited by mandark; April 20, 2005 at 05:28 PM.
mandark is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:06 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13588 seconds with 9 queries