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Old June 26, 2001, 04:36 PM   #26
younggenious
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what if a armed criminal breaks into your house and yells "Police, Search warrant" or something close to that. how would you know what to do then?
uh oh...you might have to think on this one. lol
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Old June 26, 2001, 04:46 PM   #27
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I think you should AT LEAST wait until you find out if they are trying to roust you out of bed 'cuz your house is on FIRE!

Besides, if it IS a crazed Methamphetamines speed freak coming in, I want to witness the look of surprise on his face.
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Old June 26, 2001, 07:59 PM   #28
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Art, if the kicking continues after I've verbally challenged, there's no statetment of "POLICE" and no warrant, and even if the phone line is still live, I cannot reasonably assume that ANY drunk is still harmless.

Even if the response is incoherent drunken babbling, I'm very reluctant to let the kicker reach contact distance. That circumstance would require me to see the door breaking--the ability to harm me becomes apparent, and I will fire once entry appears possible and I can locate my target--like the vicinity of the hand that's reaching through the door.
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Old June 29, 2001, 09:12 AM   #29
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As an aside, people are assuming that if you DO shot through the door, that somehow the police will automatically know and the DA is going to prosecute.

If you lived in the country where I do, the nearest neighbor is more than 1/2 mile away. I don't think they'd hear any shots from inside of my house, or even care if they did.

Afterwards the problem becomes one of getting rid of the miscreants body because I sure the hell am not going to call 911 to have them pick it up.

Obviously a city dweller doesn't have the option of this choice so you'd have to plan on dealing with the police.
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Old June 29, 2001, 09:39 AM   #30
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nbk2000, I thought the object was to stay out of trouble!? Oh, great, now we have Obstruction of Justice, False Informing, and possibly Abuse of a Corpse in addition to the Murder charge the Prosecuting Attorney will file. Gee, how many times when I was a LEO and now in private practice have I heard "there aren't any witnesses" only discover a dozen later?

We train and study so this sort of thing does not happen. I thought we in the Gun Culture were better people than the mall ninja that do this sort of stuff (hide evidence, distort the truth) out in the open?

Are you an FBI agent by any chance?
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Old June 29, 2001, 10:10 AM   #31
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If someone is kicking/breaking down your door calling 911 is out...I mean at best your looking at a 5 to 10 minute response time after 911 operator understands what you need and assumeing that 911 isn't busy.

As to IDing the target [ie where the target is], that is already done for you he/she/it is in a fatal funnel. I personally would take my chances with a jury and the reasonable man defense with shooting thru the door at the point that I felt the goblin was probably going to get thru the door OR if I hear or sense anything to suggest they are going to use fire [as in gasoline and a match]. Assuming it was a house I owned vs a rental.

I don't think as a practical matter that one must always be able to visually ID a threat. This isn't a hotel room it is your BEDROOM. IMHO it is much like the Tueller drill, if you let them thru the door then your going to be behind in the speed reaction curve. If you let them in your still going to have to make a shoot no shoot decesion at near contact range in a big hurry, unless you have a real big bedroom. And one needs to remember that in real life even if you hit the goblin that won't stop them right now so if you wait until they are thru the door so you can confirm that they are a threat before you start shooting....

I don't know about the rest of the people here but most if not all of the bedrooms I have had, didn't have much more than 5 feet between the edge of the bed and the door. And I don't think even on a good day that I could honestly glance at a person and then shoot them fast enough at that range to stop them before it becomes a weapon retention problem, if I had been sound asleep just a minute ago.
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Old June 29, 2001, 12:45 PM   #32
M1911
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nbk2000:

And besides disposing of the body, you'll have to dispose of his car, fix the door, and hope no-one saw him going up towards your house, etc.

No thanks.

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Old June 29, 2001, 05:12 PM   #33
Gino
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Let me add one more variable to the mix. My girlfriend is disabled and can not take any blunt-force trauma, and is relatively immobile. If there is someone breaking down my bedroom door, I can't afford to take time-consuming chances...

One thing noone has mentioned is the idea of installing a strong door/jam combo with a good lock. The average bedroom door wouldn't stop any determined attacker for more than a couple of seconds. Slowing down an potential BG is a good thing, right? (Provided there are no children in the house.)
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Old June 30, 2001, 12:27 AM   #34
David Park
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Here's an example from Real Life:
A week or two ago, I was getting ready for bed late one night when I heard some commotion outside my apartment. This is not too unusual where I live, but it continued for some time and seemed different than the normal rowdy kids. I finally looked out my window and saw a cop, several EMTs (one with a bullhorn, which I realized was one of the strange noises) and some relatives of a resident (elderly man?) in the second-floor apartment in the building across from mine. I realized they had been trying to contact the resident for several minutes, and receiving no response were now using a ladder to enter the second-floor bedroom window. Once they began entry, they were cautious but more-or-less silent until several of them had entered the apartment.

Now, I thought, what if this had been me? I'm a sound sleeper, so if I was already asleep and they had been entering my apartment, the first moment I probably would have realized it would have been when they came through the window and stepped on me. Would I be justified in "defending my home with lethal force" upon waking up to a man wearing a dark T-shirt and pants with no obvious markings standing over my bed? In VA, maybe yes. Does that mean it's a good idea? I don't think so.

Always positively identity your target. (Isn't that rule 4 of basic gun safety?) Flash the intruder with a Surefire, say "freeze, I have a gun", and chances are the situation will be quickly defused either way. If not, well, you still have your gun and can take appropriate action.

Note that in the above situation, the EMT could just have easily gotten in to the main room of the apartment another way, and then proceeded to enter the locked bedroom. Given the flimsy interior doors here, one swift kick would probably do it.
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Old June 30, 2001, 07:50 AM   #35
Art Eatman
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I have been a renter. A couple of times I have asked my landlord if I could upgrade certain doors. Invariably the answer was "Yes."

So your bedroom has a hollow-core door. Where is it cast in concrete or engraved on steel that you cannot replace the cheesy piece of garbage with a "real" door? If a landlord objects, you thank him for assuming full civil liability for your safety.

Where is it written that you cannot modify the entry doors to prevent any sort of easy entry? It is easy to add a deadbolt, and the add-on braceplates are decorative.

If you have not made some sort of security improvements in your residence, why not? I guarantee you that whatever money you spend will be far less than you will pay in legal fees, even in the event of a "good" shooting.

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Old June 30, 2001, 02:13 PM   #36
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KSFreeman, IF I was an FBI agent, I could shot an unarmed woman holding a baby through the head or crush a building with a tank, burn it to the ground with 80 men, woman, and children inside, and not have to worry about even a slap on the wrist.

BUT, since I'm not an FBI Agent, and live in KKKalifornia, I'd rather take the (where I live) very remote chance of a witness seeing someone walk into my house in the middle of the rural (hence no lights) night, hearing shots from inside a ranch house constructed of solid wood timbers, and calling the sheriff, then the absolute sureity (SP?) of being arrested, prosecuted, and probably convicted and sent to prison to be surrounded by the very trash I killed IF I called the police to report it.

Besides, my neighbors hear me shooting at night all the time, pest control, so they'd think nothing of hearing a few shots.

Is a "Mall Ninja" anything like a "|<3\/\/|_" (Kewl Hacker)?

Sounds like it. A person, who through outrageous boasts and grandeous statements, tries to make himself appear more skillful than he actually is, or more knowledgable than those around him. If that's the brush you want to paint me with, just make sure you don't get any of that paint on yourself.

As I implied in my first post, the response all depends on your situation. Neighbors, local laws, etc. Use your own judgement about YOUR particular situation. I already have.
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Old June 30, 2001, 02:45 PM   #37
KSFreeman
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nbk2000, the FBI questions is a reference to the fact that it is SOP for the FBI (and most fed mall ninja) to commit perjury, obstruct justice and alter evidence. See, e.g., the examples you cite Ruby Ridge and Waco (sun spots on the muzzles of M16s?).

Ninja is slang for cop. Jeff Cooper, to my knowledge, first started to refer to the SWAT-types as this. It has grown to refer to all cops as the militarization of our police continues without abatement. Mall ninja is the combination of mall cop and ninja. See the lates issue of any gun rag that feature police and "mall cop" reverbs at every page. (Aside: my favorite is the latest issue of American Handgunner where they show a ninja doing his "high speed, low drag" tactical/practical rubbish WITH AN UNLOADED HK54!!!).

If you shoot someone inside your house, alter the "crime" scene, feed the body to the hogs (and throw the head in a garbage bin in a grocery store in Indianapolis, Mr. Bowman), drive the vehicle that the BG came in into the lake or river, and wipe up the blood, you look (even if you are totally in the right) guilty. The Prosecuting Attorney (or District Attorney in the PRK) will be on you like a bum on a ham sandwhich with many new and exciting crimes to accuse you of.

That's why you use verbal compliance first to ascertain the intent before you "recon by fire" like the mall ninja do. Bang, bang, bang, stop police! The last thing in the world you want to do is pull the trigger on someone. However, if you do, be ready for Problem #2.
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Old June 30, 2001, 03:51 PM   #38
Spectre
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In the classes I have taken, verbal challenge is taught. I do understand that these classes are often geared toward peace officers.

I deliberately give offense to none I meet, and do my best to avoid trouble. If someone is undertaking violence in my domicile, I will prosecute the threat until it is no longer threatening. Verbal challenge will only be given if I have the extreme luxury to do so with reasonable safety to myself.

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Old July 1, 2001, 10:01 PM   #39
centralpadoug
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Come on...there's really only one answer. Assuming you are adequtely armed, do you really feel shooting through a door is going to help in the long run. The saying "the devil you know" comes to mind.

I would prefer to SEE what my options are...the first through the door would see the same thing those behind the door would see anyway...only I'd be in control. This "control" would relate to the legal hassles that would surely follow either way and during the time we work our disagreements.

If it would come down to shooting through a door I'd rather be out the window, and take a defensive position in my neighbors yard...in other words get the H--l out of dodge. Besides, why the heck was the dog sleeping through the house entry in the first place .
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Old July 1, 2001, 10:38 PM   #40
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If some one or someones is kicking in my bedroom door in the middle of the night they have signed their own release. One clip through the door, reload and see who was there.
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Old July 2, 2001, 11:55 AM   #41
Art Eatman
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Ah, yes, Hardball. Even if it's your mommy coming in to spank you, your wife quite irate about your pregnant girlfriend, or your pregnant sweetie who's not real pleased about the alleged vasectomy.

Where is it written that the kicker is a bad GUY?

, Art
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Old July 2, 2001, 12:52 PM   #42
Joe Botz
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what have to dail 911! I don't have a phone in my bedroom,,and what if after the asshle gets through the door I don't care if he is 110 pounds and un armed,,I do not have to put my life in potential danger no matter how small the chance is that they might get a chance to possibly kill me,,,I feared for my life,,if they are drunk tough feces,,don't get drunk,,do I have to take the chance that this skell might get a chance at getting my firearm and using it on me? NOT,,I know this to be fact,,I lived it in NY,,should I have grappled with this scumbag and take the chance that his high arse would get my firearm? FFUk no! this is total BS and don't make excuses for a holes bad judgement etc.....noone tells them to act other than responsibly! No more excuses for anyone trying to harm me or you,,,don't murder just do what you gotta do,,no ones life is worth taking a chance,,and ffuk the a holes out there that think that they can act like a hole,,,more of them wether civialians or LEO's should be held reponsible one way or the other,,,and this from a retired LEO...p.s. god forbid my ass had gotten shot while on the job,,well you take the good with the bad,,,it is part of the job,,if I wanted a safe job I would have been a librarian,,,Semper Fi
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Old July 2, 2001, 01:45 PM   #43
Hard Ball
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Art-

"good people are not "kicking down my bedroom door in the middle of the night." I am a peaceful and loveable person unless provoked, but some one who is "kicking down my bedroom door in the middle of the nigh ."is being Very provoking.
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Old July 2, 2001, 07:19 PM   #44
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Joe, please use some carriage returns instead of ,,,

Your post is very hard to read.
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Old July 2, 2001, 07:44 PM   #45
Art Eatman
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Joe, I don't think anybody is suggesting that one wait until the Bad Guy is inside and close enough for grappling.

I have no objection whatsoever to the use of deadly force; I'm merely saying that shooting through the door at what is basically just a loud noise can get you some time in the slammer. It's a matter of circumstance.

Another Devil's Advocate point: What if the kicker has a hostage in front of him as a shield as he's doing this kicking? Over and over, haven't we all heard, "Identify your target"?

All I've suggested in any of my posts is that thinking before doing is a Good Thing. I'm not at all suggesting doing nothing...

, Art
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Old July 2, 2001, 09:06 PM   #46
SamH
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If I may make a suggestion....

The three questions to ask before using deadly force (ie. shooting the prick):

Is the aggressor equipped to use deadly force?
In the case of someone trying to kick down your bedroom door - you don't know! So don't shoot.

Is the aggressor in a position to use deadly force?
If he or she is behind your bedroom door, probably not. So don't shoot.

Is the aggressor demonstrating intent to use deadly force?
He or she is acting violently. If you feel that this is enough indication of his or her intent to use deadly force, I'll leave the decision up to the reader.

Those three questions are the bare minimum. If all three of the above questions had been 'yes', then I would shoot the idiot. Otherwise, no, since I wouldn't like to be locked up in a cubicle with a wretched murderer for company.

My 2 cents....
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Old July 4, 2001, 11:56 AM   #47
Spectre
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Y'know, as I was getting in bed last night, this thread came to mind. Statements about mothers, grandmothers, and friends attempting to extricate us from potential danger came to mind, and as they did, the utter absurdity of such comments struck me, and I laughed, because any friend or relative of mine will most assuredly be loudly identifying themselves if placed in a position to need to break into my occupied bedroom. Just food for thought.
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Old July 4, 2001, 11:56 AM   #48
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Gentlemen,

For what it's worth I add my two cents.
I'm currently building a house, and I never REALLY understood the entire building process before.
Here in North-Central Florida the homes are well insallated, and wood frame.
I always though their would be some brick and cinder involved (travel 100 miles South and almost all the new homes being built are cinder), this being said I look around my house and see that even if I were to shot a .38 from outside into the house, it would probably penetrate at least into the house.
Didn't exactly give me a "warm, fuzzy".
However when the house was still in the planning stage, along with the metal exterior doors I had them put me down for two solid-core doors: Master Bedroom and one Guest Bedroom.
There is a deadbolt on the MBR door which can only been seen from the inside.
To cut to the chase, if I heard MY bedroom door being bashed down, I'd hand the cellphone to my wife, grab my pistol and wait.
I've been through this particular drill before, the "intruders" will probably get a terse "I'm armed, the police are on the way..."
I know for a FACT that I would hold fire till I identified the target, granted that may give the intruder the chance to fire on me, or rush through the door with the other mall-ninja's.
The fact is there is NO pat answer, we've read the articles and know the drills. When you pull that trigger you are opening a Pandora's box, you won't know what happens until a minute afterwards.
1. You've either held off from shooting a drunk, and/or disorderly who is now very shaken.
2. You have a goblin at gunpoint.
3. You are now in a Mexican-Standoff with LEO's, or what LOOKS like LEO's.
Tough question, no pat answers.
Hate to say this but regardless of what the laws say, I don't trust my life, my wife's or anyone elses to them. I could be 100% in the right and still be fried in court or "light up" the bedroom and be completely exonerated.
The key is to have a "layered" defense.
1. Outdoor lights.
2. Loyal pet(s).
3. Security Alarm.
4. Solid interior/exterior doors and windows.
5. Solid plan of action (much like a fire-drill).

Ehhh,

Sorry I took so long...

Jon
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Old July 4, 2001, 12:53 PM   #49
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CrociJA, it sounds like you've put some thought into the deal, rather than "thinking in slogans" or going heavy into an ego-trip...

We live in a world where juries give huge sums of money to people as a reward for being stupid. We live in a world where DAs don't believe in one's right of self-defense, and will happily deliver an "uncaring, calloused murderer" to the tender mercies of the judgements of these same sorts of jurors.

Not only do I want the odds on my side in the event of the need for deadly force in self-defense, I want the odds on my side when the Grand Jury meets to decide on indictments.

, Art
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Old July 4, 2001, 01:16 PM   #50
Spectre
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I remember, some months ago, my dog started making some noise between 0300 and 0400. I quietly "shushed" her, and went back to sleep. She promptly woke me back up, a little more loudly, this time. I told her to be quiet. ZZZ...
Ruff!
Quiet, dammit!...and then, I heard the knocking...
I wondered why the police would be at MY door, as I couldn't think of anyone else who would be knocking on my door in the wee hours (none of my family is in GA). I apologized to my dog, and picked up my P-11 JUST IN CASE.

Looking through the peephole, I saw no-one, but did see a black bag. I stepped back from the door (far enough that it couldn't hit me, even if forced), and opened the door with my right hand, chain on, while keeping my P-11 in my left, pointed at the floor. Before I could ask who it was, I heard a

John! It's me!, and Spartacuses' head popped into view.

Sure, people can show up unexpectedly. I will NEVER shoot through at someone who is just knocking, whether inner or outer door. On the other hand, someone who has just put a limb through my bedroom door has demonstrated their ability to hurt me gravely, and I am, indeed, in fear for my life, and I have nowhere to run.

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