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Old June 21, 2001, 08:26 PM   #1
airborne420
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Shoot through the door?

Your lying in bed at night and someone starts kicking in your BEDROOM door, which is locked. You know it's not a household member because you live alone. Do you shoot through the door or wait?
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Old June 21, 2001, 09:33 PM   #2
Fatcat
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Wait till you see 'em. I'd hate to shoot a cop because he messed up the search warrant and was kicking down my door instead. The jury would have a field day on ya..
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Old June 22, 2001, 12:59 AM   #3
PreserveFreedom
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I'd hate to shoot a cop because he messed up the search warrant and was kicking down my door instead.
That would be your best reason to shoot through the door. The USA is not a police state and a no knock search warrant is illegal. They need to lose a few people before they start getting the message.
 
Old June 22, 2001, 10:09 AM   #4
Mike in VA
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Shooting thru the door would be highly irresponsible IMO. Consider:
1. You don't know your target or whats behind it.
2. You don't know their intent.
3. You don't know their ability to do you harm (i.e. are they armed? how big are they? anyone else with them/ . . .)
4. You aren't in jeopardy yet.
I would, however, grab nightstand gun and flashlight, get behind cover and prepare to make it the worst day of their life when the door lets go and I have a clear shot at a legitimate threat. Stay safe, M2
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Old June 22, 2001, 06:01 PM   #5
ek127
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Erick,
Maybe you should be a little less "politically correct" when you don the hat as a moderator. PreserveFreedoms response was BULL#@!
Its always appaling when a few BAD Cops make alot of good cops look bad. However, statements like his about killing Cops diserves a little better response then trying to convince that moron that search warrants are legal.

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Old June 22, 2001, 06:57 PM   #6
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Whether that is a good thing or bad, is not for me to decide.
Oh, yes it is! Emphatically so! You are an American citizen! You have the responsibility to see to it that your govenment doesn't get out of line!

That said, shooting cops as a means of "sending them a message" is not my idea of good citizenship. But neither is a blanket acceptance of all that is done in the name of Law and Order.
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Old June 22, 2001, 07:26 PM   #7
cuerno de chivo
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Edited because captainHoek said it much more nicely.
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Old June 23, 2001, 12:35 AM   #8
PreserveFreedom
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I can see the point of cops doing a no knock raid thinking they are just doing their job. However, the German soldiers that killed thousands of Jewish people were also doing their jobs. This being said, no matter what a warrant says, it is not valid until served. If 30 cops die before I see a piece of paper, they were trespassers at the time. It's a chance they take I guess. They should have known right from wrong.
 
Old June 23, 2001, 06:11 AM   #9
STEVE M
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To get back to the question asked;
I think your best bet would be to grab gun(s) and verbaly challenge them through the door. If they are intent on doing you harm, I see no problem with shooting through the door. In this senario you live alone, so you don't have to worry about other family members getting shot.
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Old June 23, 2001, 11:06 AM   #10
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Hold your fire. Can't you just ask who the heck it is instead of reconning by fire like the mall ninja do? Aren't we better behaved than the Dreaded Demons of Darkness? I believe the technical term for this innovative "tactical" (I'm wearing black right now) concept is "verbal compliance."

PF, why don't we just abolish the moronic laws that the mall ninja enforce like, oh, I don't know, the NFA!!! That time may be coming, Mr. Bowman; however, I do everything (and pray real hard) that it doesn't come.
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Old June 23, 2001, 11:23 AM   #11
Quartus
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Help me here, I'm ignorant!

What is a mall ninja? I thought it was those clowns who can be seen walking around malls trying to 'let on' (by their T-shirts, gestures, etc.) that they are reeeely bad dudes, highly skilled in the mysterious martial arts.

In another context (here on TFL) it seems to refer to mall security "rent-a-cops".

The way Freeman just used it doens't seem to fit either.

BTW, Freeman, would you shoot through the door with your 106?


As for shooting through the door, I wouldn't categorically say that I would never do that. But I'd have to be awfully sure of who was on the other side first. Sure enough to risk the life of one of my family. Sure enough to risk going to jail and leaving them to fend for themselves.

Because no less than that is at stake.
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Old June 23, 2001, 06:57 PM   #12
Edward429451
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Here in colorado, you'd probably get away with shooting thru the door. They got whats coined the 'make my day' law which means you can use deadly force in defense of your residence.
The way the question was put down, no one yelled police, so what do you have? An armed homeowner in the locked bedroom, and an unknown if armed, but known violent person DEMONSTRATING violence on your locked door. (known to be violent because he is kicking the door at this moment, in front of you) Is it reasonable to assume that they will continue to be violent if they enter the room? That is the call. You probably could get away with shooting thru the door but what if its a drunk neighbor or old friend, come to suprise you, with no malicious intent? I'd feel bad then, even if aquitted. Better to take up a defensive position with your arm, and announce your presence and that you are armed. If you tell em you are armed and to leave, and they continue to come....better to be tried by twelve.
many other situationals to consider (how vicious IS the attack on the door, the more vicious, the sooner you shoot. The good thing in that situation is that you are at home. They carried violence into YOUR HOME, and destroyed the sanctity of it etc.
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Old June 23, 2001, 07:10 PM   #13
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Mike in VA,
You could reasonably assume their intent was violence, since they are demonstrating violence on your door at this moment. As to gauging their ability to harm you, you could reasonably assume their ability by the degree of viciousness to the attack on the door. And respond appropriately.
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Old June 24, 2001, 04:53 AM   #14
eyeball
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what kind of friends do you have? are they goofy n stuff?

are your family members the type where its alright to show up at anytime?

do you have a psycho (but cool) girlfriend?

are there any kids that live near you?

there are many intervening variables you have to take into consideration.
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Old June 24, 2001, 10:15 AM   #15
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Here in MA CCW holders have less right than the criminals.I would wait until that door opened to see if the person was armed or not.If i were to ask him/her whether they were armed and they said yes even though they weren't and I shot them through the door I would go to jail.It could also be a neighbor needing emergency help and they felt breaking into your home to get your help was desperately needed.I think an alarm system or big dog would help avoid being in this situation.Also most firearms safety courses tell you not to blind fire.
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Old June 24, 2001, 01:28 PM   #16
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I will most certainly take all measure necessary to defend my domicile. I don't care if someone kicking down my door is armed or not. He's kicking down my door!

I am only concerned with no stray shots downrange. If I am certain of Mr. Moron's position (my br door is rather fragile, so perhaps I can see where his body is?), I will light 'im up, quick, fast, and in a hurry.

I trust that is sufficiently clear, as I have been known to waffle now and again.
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Old June 24, 2001, 02:10 PM   #17
STEVE M
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Spectre, when did you ever waffle
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Old June 24, 2001, 03:01 PM   #18
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I'm sure it's happened sometime.
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Old June 24, 2001, 08:04 PM   #19
Mike in VA
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Edward429451, with all due respect, I don't feature shooting on assumption, I would hold my fire until I know who/what I'm shooting (besides, it's hard to score effective COM shots thru a door).

Uh, how do I know it isn't my deaf-mute neighbor down the hall trying to let me know the building is on fire? If there was more evidence of intent, i.e. yelling and screaming threats directed at me by name or something like that, well now things are getting interesting . . . but I'm still holding my fire until I know who and why I'm shooting. That, I would assume, they're going to be asking about that afterwards.
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Old June 25, 2001, 10:50 AM   #20
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Immediate verbal challenge, preferably after the 911 operator comes on the line. I see no point in telling them that I am armed.

If the phone line is dead, I will probably shoot immediately after the 1/2-second reaction time needed for the door-kicker to stop or speak. I am willing to live with an unfortunate "coincidence" that phone service is out, and will reasonably believe that my door-kicker has already cut my phone lines.

If they respond and say "Police," how do you know that they really are? We've had a few home invasion burglaries and murders involving imposters. If they say "Police," the command is "Stop and put the warrant under the door!"

If they have said "Police" but do not stop or if there is no paper forthcoming, I shoot at the sounds, in a six-inch progression from the center point.

BUT

If they keep kicking, the phone line is live and they never respond to the verbal challenge(s), I would not shoot until the door shows signs of being breached. I would have a higher threshold of "imminent danger" under those circumstances.

Think it through, friends.
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Old June 25, 2001, 10:01 PM   #21
zot
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in Iowa the only way to legally shoot someone is first dial 911,
yell to the person on the other side of door, and wait till they
bust the door down,THEN you can shoot IF they have a weapon,
and if you blow their brains out you will get in trouble, try to wound. no self defense here, if someone is actually chasing you,
you can't shoot them till they come inside your home. this is where kids get busted for pointing red water pistols at another
kid and get charged with assault. in my sons junior high they are
not allowed to say gun, kill,murder, and a few other words, these
words can get the kid a 3 day in school suspension. things are getting crazy.
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Old June 26, 2001, 12:02 AM   #22
Art Eatman
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I go along with the comments about "be prepared", as to cover and firearm-readiness.

However: There are cases on record of a drunk using his key to his house, and mistakenly opening a door in a similar-appearing house in a tract. One of these actually wound up in bed with the wrong-house owner and his wife! Strange stuff happens at O-Drunk-thirty!

Shifting emphasis a bit, I had a motel clerk give me a key to an already-occupied room. A bit late at night, and the occupant who was already asleep was not at all pleased to seem some strange dude coming through the door. Maybe I was lucky?

I've also had persistent drunks not believe that my motel room was not their motel room. Banging, yelling and cursing. I should have shot?

Trespass and/or terminal stupidity are not capital offenses. Until you have reasonable cause to believe there WILL be harm, you might well have trouble convincing a jury that you shouldn't do some time.

Yes, be prepared for serious trouble. But that Mr. Macho BS can get you a hard time from the DA, and maybe some hard time from a jury.

Art
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Old June 26, 2001, 01:38 AM   #23
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Art, I respect you. A lot.

Let me say this, though:

"Darwin happens." I am not speaking of unloading on some poor sap who obviously means me no harm. I am speaking of aimed fire on the malcontent who is kicking my door in. As Edmund Rowe might say to such a person,

"Doom on you."
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Old June 26, 2001, 09:50 AM   #24
Cheapo
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Most, if not all of the potential tragedies we discuss avoiding on these Boards do not fall into the category of

someone is kicking in the door--especially the interior door of your bedroom.

Can we reasonably believe that the drunk is still harmless when he is breaching the peace and about to breach your security barrier?

Some "mistakes" might not truly deserve to be fatal to the perpetrator, but no one should complain if they turn out to be fatal for the Darwin Award Candidate.
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Old June 26, 2001, 10:15 AM   #25
Art Eatman
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Cheapo, you asked, "Can we reasonably believe that the drunk is still harmless when he is breaching the peace and about to breach your security barrier?"

Absent a weapon, probably the answer is yes. Absent a weapon and a verbal threat, a jury *probably* will say "Yes."

Let's say the drunk thinks he's at the right house, and that by the magic of statistical probablity his key fits your door. (I use Master padlocks on my gates. I discovered that a ranch some three miles away uses the same padlock as I; my key fit his lock. I changed my locks...) Anyway, the guy comes home, wants to go to bed, and the door is locked. IN HIS MIND he is in the correct place and is doing with what HE THINKS is his property as he needs in order to get to bed.

So you shoot through the door without having seen him, and his last dying words to the cops and EMS are, "But I was in my own home!"

And I say unto you: You ain't gonna be happy with the consequences. Think of the DA as a steamroller, and you're a bug on the pavement.

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