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Old May 23, 2001, 06:05 AM   #1
Tom B
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Anyone shot it or carry it? Opinions please.
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Old May 23, 2001, 06:08 AM   #2
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Supplies did not last long enough

for me to get hold of some, but several friends tested this stuff and were very pleased with the results (Austria has a ban on semi jacketed hollow point ammunition for handguns).
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Old May 23, 2001, 06:40 AM   #3
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I DON'T LIVE IN JERSEY

I am very interested in this bullet; will it be more effective than their Hydra-Shok? or a Golden Saber/ Gold Dot/ Starfire/ XTP?

How will it perform in extreme cold? Will it work after passing through wallboard? or clothing/ glass/ sheetmetal/ fur?

Will it be prohibitively expensive?

Will it be available to others (like me) as a component?

Jeez, thatsalotta questions huh?
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Old May 23, 2001, 12:35 PM   #4
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Hollow Points are considered illegal in Jersey, though the law allows you to possess them in your home, or at the range. Whether or not you would be charged with the use of illegal ammo if used for home defense, has yet to be answered. Many NJ LEOs and Prosecutors think that hollow points are totally illegal, and don't understand the "home & range" exemptions.

Just to be safe, I use the Federal EFMJ ammo in my 9mm & .40 home defense guns. I haven't tried the .45 yet, but I hope to pick some up shortly. I've fired around 500 rounds of this ammo, and am very impressed. All my autos feed it flawlessly, and accuracy is close to match grade. It may not expand as well as some top of the line personal defense hollow points, but it's sure better than FMJ.

Even if hollow points where legal in this state, I may still use the EFMJ, due to it's reliable feeding, and extreme accuracy. If the .45 feeds as well as the others do, it may be the answer to finicky 1911s.
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Old May 23, 2001, 12:51 PM   #5
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Quote:
Will it be prohibitively expensive?
WESHOOT,
Ammoman sells the 9mm for as low as $14 per 50 in case quantity (shipped). The .40 goes for $299 a case ($14.95 per 50), and the .45 for $399 a case ($19.95 per 50). 500 rounds is a couple bucks more per box, with single boxes selling for $19 to $24 per 50. Given the price of premium hollow points, I think the price is extremely reasonable.

Maybe I should shoot it head to head with my factory match FMJ ammo. If it stacks up, it could save me a little money.
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Old May 25, 2001, 12:11 PM   #6
BrokenArrow
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FYI

Some Federal EFMJ info for ya.

5 round avgs, FBI test protocol (not done by FBI, or me)

P45CSP1 200 gr Glock 21 12/14/00

bare gel 978 12.95/.653
cloth 984 13.7/.651
wboard 983 12.15/.676
pwood 982 12.65/.654
steel 992 12.2/.59 (jacket/core sep/77% ret wt)
glass 1002 11.7/.576 (67%)

P45CSP2 165 gr SIG P220 3/6/01

bare gel 1068 9.1/.74
cloth 1032 9.9/.722
wboard 1054 8.9/.726
pwood 1043 9.55/.743
steel 1047 8.15/.58 (71%)
glass 1047 7.85/.578 (61%)

P9CSP1 124 gr SIG P228 1063 fps 1/00 (1105 my G17)

bare gel 12.85/.519
cloth 12.55/.519
wboard 11.1/.525
pwood 13.2/.51
steel 9.5/.466 (65%)
glass 8.5/.511 (60%)

Beretta 92

bare 11.35/.567
cloth 12.1/.552
wboard 10/.563
pwood 10.8/.561
steel 9.33/.492 (65%)
glass 7.9/.526 (55%)


P9CSP1 146 gr HK MP5 1225 fps 1/00

bare gel 11.3/.600
cloth 10.9/.596
wboard 9/.592
pwood 10.3/.596
steel 11.1/.491 (68%)
glass 8.6/.512 (57%)


P40CSP1 (970 my P99)

bare 12.45/.617
cloth 13.3/.605
wboard 12.8/.610
pwood 15.95/.579
steel 11.65/.513 (72%)
glass 11.75/.530 (67%)
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Old May 26, 2001, 05:48 AM   #7
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Any 'flesh' shootings yet?
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Old August 22, 2001, 11:32 AM   #8
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That should be the same 124 gr bullet in the MP5 above: typo.

A 124/9 EFMJ into deer from Glock 19 at 15 ft. Down neck into chest, no bones hit, pen 14, exp .56x./59. Deer hide is easily the equivalent of heavy cloth.

Heard of a 124/9 from MP5 through door into bad guy, exp to .59 or.60 IIRC.
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Old August 22, 2001, 03:09 PM   #9
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Will the Federal Expanding Point...

..ammunition be coming in .32ACP also? Anyone know for sure?

Thanks,

KR
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Old August 22, 2001, 03:45 PM   #10
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What I suspect about this stuff...

From all the reports I've seen, in any given caliber there might be JHPs that outperform the E-FMJ, BUT the E-FMJ seems to have three upsides:

1) Expansion across a very wide velocity range - meaning, if your barrel is very short or very long for the caliber, these things look good.

2) Clog-resistant, expansion isn't affected by outer cloth.

3) Reliable feeding in slideguns.

Note that the first two points are just as valid in revolvers as slideguns! I'd really like to see the 124grain 9mm load sized up a hair and loaded in .38, .38+P and .357. They could prove to be the best snubbie loads ever.

I like the idea of a load that may not work the very best, but will ALWAYS work .

Jim
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Old August 22, 2001, 09:05 PM   #11
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It doesn't _always_ work. I don't think anything ever will. I'm not even sure the EFMJ will expand better/more consistently than other JHPs out there. It does not in water jugs through denim.

The downside: fired some 165/40 EFMJ from a G23 at 970 fps into jugs of water through denim. Went to 5th jug, minimal expansion of .425! Some made it to .53, but some exited 5 jugs and were not recovered. For comparison the lowly PMC 165/40 JHP at 985 made it to the 4th jug and expanded to .66!

Pulled some bullets, pumped em up about 130 fps to 1100 (7.2 gr PP), and through denim some made it into 4th jug at .60, some still exited all 5 and not recovered. Have no idea what's up with that.

BTW, the best so far is the PMC Starfire. through 6 layers of denim the 180/40/975 did 3/.75, the 155/40/1125 3/.81! The HS, GS, GD didn't even come close.

Also heard from somebody who shot through gallon jug of water into wooden boards (treated 1x6). The 200/45 +P EFMJ expanded to .80 but just dented the board. A Win JHP went through a couple baords and stuck in a 2x4.

Then again, jugs aren't gel, and gel isn't people.

It is accurate, reliable, clean, and easy to handle w low flash. All of which may have more to do w "stopping" than how big it does/doesn't get?
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Old August 22, 2001, 09:50 PM   #12
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I've been using 124gr +P in my P7's and my Kahr K9 Elite and have found it to be accurate and so far,to feed flawlessly. Like the idea that it won't clog which should make it a good round for colder weather. Haven't shot anything but paper though,so.......
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Old August 22, 2001, 11:14 PM   #13
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I tried 100 rds thru my G-26,they were not as accurate as the 124gr non +P golden sabres i carry,somewhat more flash in a dim indoor range,felt recoil was about the same.So until i see some street results i'll stick with the remingtons
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Old August 23, 2001, 05:58 AM   #14
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The EFMJ is a most interesting concept that seems to have been decently realized by the manufacturer; it leads one to wonder where Federal (and the state of anti-personnel handgun munitions en toto) would be today without Tom Burczynski's contributions.

Here's some high-speed photos of the round at work in Kind & Knox's finest 10% goo as well as in plywood.
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Old August 23, 2001, 10:21 AM   #15
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They gotta figure out a way to make the bullets shorter so the case capacity isn't reduced as much.

Some people are not interested in a +P 9mm load that does less than 1100 fps, or a 165/40 that does less than 1000 fps. They think speed kills I guess?
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Old August 23, 2001, 02:56 PM   #16
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I fired some 9mm 124gr EFMJs into very damp telephone books and compared them to 115gr and 124gr ProLoads.

The EFMJs would go through 5 telephone books and usually not expand evenly. Is this because they're supposed to expand only in water?

The 124gr Proloads pentrated 1/2 way through the 5th book and expanded well. The 115gr ProLoads nearly exploded the first telephone book, and stopped in the 3rd book in a perfect star shape.

I'm sure the EFMJs have the penetration, but do they have the expansion? Even the EFMJs that did expand correctly were not as wide as the ProLoads.
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Old August 23, 2001, 03:30 PM   #17
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Here in Nazi Jersey, the law is a bit vague as to the implcations of actually shooting a gremlin in your home with a hollow point. Buying, owning, going to the range and shooting HP are no problem. I don't want to make it any easier for some prosecutor looking to make his bones. No one had it locally so I ordered a couple of boxes from Ammodump.com. I can't order from Ammoman as the state oink doesn't allow him to ship intra-state. Ran four mags through my 1911 the flat-nosed EFMJ fed and chambered as slick as any hardball. No chrono but recoil felt solid, and function was authoratative.
So my house gun is now loaded with EFMJ. If push come to shove and I can't figure a way to get the body loaded into my van and dumped somewhere, at least there will be one less thing to explain.
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Old August 23, 2001, 04:49 PM   #18
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Hullo?!?

Mikul reports:
Quote:
The EFMJs would go through 5 telephone books and usually not expand evenly. Is this because they're supposed to expand only in water?
Where ever did you get that quixotic notion? *** kind of projectile is designed to stop in water?!?
Quote:
I'm sure the EFMJs have the penetration, but do they have the expansion? Even the EFMJs that did expand correctly were not as wide as the ProLoads.
[list=1][*]Did you go to the linked site and look at the pretty pictures? (Jeez, ya giv'em a link and what do they do with it?!)
[*]Have you yet figured out what your objective is here? There's an old rhyme about whatever you do in life, no matter what your goal, keep your eye upon the donut, and not upon the hole.[/list=1]
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Old August 23, 2001, 05:04 PM   #19
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Shoot them in 9mm in my P7s, flawless chambering & function.

Carry the .45 occasionally in my Kimber Ultra CDP 3" barrel.

They've always seemed to fire accurately with minimal flash.
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Old August 23, 2001, 06:04 PM   #20
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Stuff usually expands more in jugs of water than gel (or the road killed deer I've used).

After denim in jugs of water:

124/9 EFMJ +P 3 jugs/.53
124/9 Gold Dot +P 5/.49
125/357SIG GD 5/.49

165/40 EFMJ 5/.52
165/40 Supreme SXT 4/.69
165/40 PMC JHP 4/.66

The champs so far:

155/40 Starfire 3/.81
180/40 Starfire 4/.79

It is what it is; a non-hollowpoint that expands. No more, no less. If it actually does that better/more consistently than the better JHPs out now remains to be seen.

It is a better choice than FMJ, I'm not convinced yet it's a better choice than JHPs. The "success rate" for 165/40 EFMJ in the FBI test series does not appear to be as good as the 165 GS, GD, HS from what I've seen so far and is not a top scorer the way they add things up. Correct me if I'm wrong.

If you think JHPS are better, but are considering EFMJ for legal reasons, they may not be as "court proof" as some think either. While they are not "hollowpoints" EFMJ are designed to "expand and flatten easily in the human body" and they are internally "pierced with incisions", meeting the definition of some "evil" ammo anyway. Or close enough for some lawyers who have told me they could make them sound just as evil as hollowpoints, and you just as evil for using them. You may be OK with the letter of the law where you are, but they can still try to dazzle a judge/jury about your intent to cause "unecessary suffering". The JHPs the police use weren't good enough for you, you had to get something "special", etc. Could bite you more than JHPS, not less.

It is good ammo. Is it better than what we already have, better in court? Time will tell.
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Old August 24, 2001, 06:18 AM   #21
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Quote:
Just to be safe, I use the Federal EFMJ ammo in my 9mm & .40 home defense guns. I haven't tried the .45 yet, but I hope to pick some up shortly. I've fired around 500 rounds of this ammo, and am very impressed. All my autos feed it flawlessly, and accuracy is close to match grade. It may not expand as well as some top of the line personal defense hollow points, but it's sure better than FMJ.

Even if hollow points where legal in this state, I may still use the EFMJ, due to it's reliable feeding, and extreme accuracy. If the .45 feeds as well as the others do, it may be the answer to finicky 1911s.
The NJ State Range Master and the Division of Criminal Justice Firearms Unit just completed some testing on the EFMJ ammo on their range at Ft. Dix. The results were very positive as far as expansion. Even better than some HP's.
However, one Assistant AJ sees them as coming under the classification of "dum-dums" as defined in the statute which also covers HP's.

There is no official ruling as of yet but...?

I wouldn't invest a lot of money in the EFMJ ammo in NJ just yet.
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Old August 24, 2001, 08:33 AM   #22
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The 9mm expanded fine for me in water, but I haven't tried it going through clothing first. Actually I hadn't even thought of testing it that way, so I'll have to try it and see. Water is a very tough medium, tougher than gel. Just try running through 8 feet of water.
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Old August 24, 2001, 10:57 AM   #23
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Like a lot of you, I am waiting to hear more about EFMJs before committing them to a carry gun. Maybe they are better than Hydrashoks, maybe not, so I will keep the Hydrashoks for now since they have a known and good track record.

The one thing I do think is very cool about the new rounds is that they offer the potential of an expanding round for those areas or states where hollowpoints are illegal. That is something I think is really cool. I also like the fact that for some older 1911s that won't chamber hollowpoints (and were not designed to), that the EFMJ rounds should feed normally in those guns so that the owners can use ammo that has the potential to expand.

One thing I am concerned about is variation in the reliability of expansion based on environmental factors, most notably temperature. I have no doubt that when warm, such as in summertime carry, the silica filler that allows compression/expansion will allow that to happen readily, but maybe too readily of your gun and ammo have been sitting in a hot car all day long in the Texas sun. I also wonder about extreme cold temperatures. Will the cold cause the silica to harded and not let the round expand as designed? Here I am thinking about those of you who carry in states where you get blizzards.
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Old August 24, 2001, 11:43 AM   #24
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They work in the cold. IIRC, some were frozen at -40 F and they still worked.
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Old August 24, 2001, 05:35 PM   #25
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Quote:
I fired some 9mm 124gr EFMJs into very damp telephone books and compared them to 115gr and 124gr ProLoads.

The EFMJs would go through 5 telephone books and usually not expand evenly. Is this because they're supposed to expand only in water?
Water doesn't support a shear force as does human soft tissue and properly prepared ordnance gelatin. I haven't tested EFMJ, but from the data I've seen, water appears to be an unreliable medium to test EFMJ expansion.

As for your damp phone book test media, without a more detailed description of your results or a photo of the recovered bullets, there's no way of judging if the performance you observed is good, bad or otherwise. Perhaps your damp phone books weren't completely soaked?
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