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Old May 19, 2001, 12:36 AM   #1
ragingbull454
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Join Date: May 18, 2001
Location: Portage, IN
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Hello,

I'm very new to shooting, but have always wanted to start some sort of collection of machine guns. How do I go about doing this? How do I make sure the guns that I might buy are legal? What other steps do I have to go through?

Any help would be appreciated. You can reply here, or email me at erick@asus.net

Thanks,
Erick
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Old May 19, 2001, 02:26 AM   #2
Robert the41MagFan
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Things needed to own a machine gun:

1. Live in a class III state.

2.Reside in a county or city (town) were the sheriff or police chief is willing to sign Class III paperwork.

3. Lots of money

4. Lots more money!

Cost of a machine gun can go for as little as $1500 for a Mac 10 to $10000 for a M-60 and everything in between. Most everyone dealing in Class III firearms is squeaky clean and above board. All machine guns have a paper trail. Best thing to do is find yourself a Class III dealer and have them walk you through the process.

Robert
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Old May 20, 2001, 10:17 AM   #3
M16
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Robert, You left out that you can go the corporate route if you can't get a law enforcement signoff. By the way where can you get an M60 for $10,000. I'd buy one in good condition for that price in a heartbeat. The most expensive machine gun sale that I am aware of is $120,000 for a GE Minigun.
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Old May 20, 2001, 10:55 AM   #4
Robert the41MagFan
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"By the way where can you get an M60 for $10,000. I'd buy
one in good condition for that price in a heartbeat."


Got really cool friends!

Corporate route is very sketchy at best. ATF has become very
apprehensive about any approval that does not have a face.
They want individual accountability should anything happen to the firearm. When you also go the corporate way, you open
up your home (or where ever the firearm resides) to ATF
inspection any time, because you no longer have individual
rights (seen it done!). And besides, any Class III firearm in the possession of a corporation when it is devolved must be turned in. No exceptions.


Robert

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Old May 26, 2001, 08:37 PM   #5
chetchat
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Quote:
Corporate route is very sketchy at best.
Comments on going the "corporate route", and a few quibbles with some statements made.

Quote:
ATF has become very apprehensive about any approval that does not have a face.
This is misleading. The CEO/President of the corporation - or a designated corporate officer - is the "face" of the corporation and signs off on the Form 4 transfer, same as any other individual. After the weapon transfer is approved, a NICS check is performed on the signee. I don't know of any transfers where this check does not occur.

I DO agree that the BATF is taking a long hard look at the corporate acquistion process, possibly looking to rescind or modify it in the future.

Quote:
They want individual accountability should anything happen to the firearm.
This implies that there is some sort of penalty the BATF assigns if "anything" happens to the weapon. Not true. Unless one is a FFL holder, there is not even a requirement to report a loss or theft af a NFA weapon. The BATF has a rule requiring reporting same, but there is no penalty for not complying. Obviously any sane person would report this, both in the hopes of quick recovery and return of the weapon, and hoping that future NFA acquisitions would not be refused. Additionally, NFA weapons are usually accorded a higher security level by their owners for protection from theft. Again, not required, but prudent.

Quote:
When you also go the corporate way, you open
up your home (or where ever the firearm resides) to ATF
inspection any time, because you no longer have individual
rights (seen it done!).
Again, not true. Unless you are an FFL or SOT holder you forfeit no rights to spontaneous inspection by any LEA, BATF or otherwise. As a corporation it is prudent to maintain a record of the whereabouts of NFA weapons should one be in the possession of a qualified/authorized employee. I don't doubt you when you say you've "seen it done", but I'd suggest there either was a FFL/SOT involved, or a search warrant, or the search was permitted by the owner of the weapons. Again, a corporate owner of NFA weapons gives up no rights accorded to individuals.

Quote:
And besides, any Class III firearm in the possession of a corporation when it is devolved must be turned in. No exceptions.
The weapons can be transferred to another qualified individual or corporation prior to corporate dissolution.

Keep in mind certain things regarding corporate ownership of NFA weapons :

- Only corporate officers or employees specifically designated may be in physical possession of the weapon, and should be noted as such in corporate records;

- Any officer or designated employee should have copies of the corporate record document allowing possession as well as articles of incorporation, etc - as well as a copy of the Form 4 - with them when they are in possession of the weapon. Some states REQUIRE this, some don't. Basically, you want to demonstrate to LE that you are within your rights to have the weapon;

- No one who would otherwise be restricted from NFA ownership may be in possession of the weapon. If your cousin or brother-in-law is part of the corporation, and they couldn't pass a NICS or 4473 form application? Then they can't play with the company's new toys.

Personally, I'd prefer to have the CLEO signoff; if you haven't tried that route, you should - don't go corporate because you think it's less complicated, go only if local LEOs won't sign for political reasons, etc.
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Old May 26, 2001, 09:13 PM   #6
Robert the41MagFan
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I'll make a bet with anyone that if they attempt to create a corporate entity solely for the purpose of acquiring Class III weapons and trying to evade local jurisdiction, in the political climate today, will not be approved. Only type of corporation that will pass the test today would be someone involved in some way in the industry, be security, LE sales or FFL. I work part time for the largest Class III dealer in the Northwest and probably the largest in the west coast. We've seen so many corporate application get shot up and go down in flames, that if the applicant is not in friendly territory and willing to get LE approval, we won't even bother. Corporate route is not as simple as it seams.

Robert
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Old May 26, 2001, 09:58 PM   #7
chetchat
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A bet? :)

Quote:
I'll make a bet with anyone that if they attempt to create a corporate entity solely for the purpose of acquiring Class III weapons and trying to evade local jurisdiction, in the political climate today, will not be approved.
"Not be approved"? By whom?

You mean approval by the state for the corporation? The state doesn't care what you say on your application for incorporation, providing it's not anything expressly illegal - just pay your incorporation fees, file appropriate papers/statements, and maintain them yearly.

You mean approval by the BATF? The BATF doesn't care about the type of corporation you have, just that it is a legal corporation and that it is maintained for the duration of the ownership of the NFA weapons.

What other approvals are you referring to?

Quote:
Only type of corporation that will pass the test today would be someone involved in some way in the industry, be security, LE sales or FFL.
Pass what test? You mean approval? Again, by whom?

Quote:
I work part time for the largest Class III dealer in the Northwest and probably the largest in the west coast. We've seen so many corporate application get shot up and go down in flames, that if the applicant is not in friendly territory and willing to get LE approval, we won't even bother. Corporate route is not as simple as it seams.
Corporate applications for what? Mere NFA weapon ownership, Form 4 transfers for NFA weapons ownership? Or do you mean FFL/SOT applications?

I don't care what experience you profess - real world experience would show you that there any many, many corporations that have been, and currently are, being formed solely because the local CLEO will not sign off on a Form 4 transfer.

Perhaps your experience in "application get shot up and go down in flames" refers to FFL/SOT applications by corporations - those are subject to local approval, no question. If you don't have the blessing of the city, county, province, borough, village, or whatever passes as local government's blessing to open up a gun shop/store, then of course you won't be approved for a FFL/SOT license.

Lastly, you refer to "trying to evade local jurisdiction". FYI : there is no local jusrisdiction - other than by the state - over NFA weapons. None at all, period. If you acquire a MG in City A and want to move to City B, all you have to worry about is whether or not the state you're moving to allows MG possession, and file a Form 5320.20 advising the BATF you are permanently transporting the weapon to the new location. You don't have to get your new jurisdiction's CLEOs permission, or even advise him you have a NFA weapon. The CLEO signoff is a Form 4 requirement created arbitrarily by the BATF.





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Old May 26, 2001, 11:21 PM   #8
JimFromFL
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Start by simply calling the local sheriff and ask if he has signed a Form 4 before. If the answer is no than start looking at the alternate routes, but if he says he has than the next step is to figure out the item you want. Once you do that, post back and we will be happy to fill you in on the next step.
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Old May 27, 2001, 09:38 AM   #9
ragingbull454
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Location: Portage, IN
Posts: 255
Hello,

I already checked with TitleII.com, and they don't show Illinois as Class II or Class III friendly. I'm in the Chicago area, and just as long as Daley is mayor of Chicago, we won't get any of that stuff.

It will just have to wait until I graduate and get out of Illinois.
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Old May 27, 2001, 08:34 PM   #10
James K
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While BATF does require the CLEO sign off, it should be noted that it is NOT CLEO permission to buy or own the gun. The statement does not say that the CLEO approves the sale, it only states that the CLEO certifies that no law in that jurisdiction prohibits the prospective purchaser from owning the gun.

The whole thing is to cover BATF's fanny. They are afraid that without that signature, they might approve a transfer that is barred by some obscure or very recent local law. This way, if that happens they can point the finger back at the local cop.

Jim

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