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Old May 18, 2001, 05:50 PM   #1
LASur5r
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How many of you remember the movie, "The Magnificent Seven?"

Remember the scene where the good guys came back to the village after they had their guns taken away from them and they were escorted out of the village and they were told to "Ride on?"

The scene is Steve McQueen "Vince" walks into a little alcove and he checks his six-gun in it's holster when two banditos appeared...one in the doorway at his 9 o'clock, then the second man appears at his 7 o'clock.

Which one would you go for first? 9 or 7?

Do you believe that you would have picked the sequence that he did? and would you have put your gun in its holster, knowing that you are about to face superior odds against you?
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Old May 19, 2001, 06:00 AM   #2
David Scott
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I'd have done it however the director and the stunt/fight choreographer said to. It'd be silly to fire a blank at Badguy A and have the special-effects bullet wound show up on Badguy B.

The script said to reholster, probably to show how quick I am on the draw, so I'd do it. When it gets to the cutting room, they'll snip out every eighth frame to make the draw look even faster.
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Old May 21, 2001, 07:26 PM   #3
LASur5r
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Neat

Thanks for that movie info.
I always wanted to know what they did to make it look faster.
In your opinion, was that scene edited in the movie."
I mean Steve McQueen had a speed rig and everything.
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Old May 21, 2001, 09:22 PM   #4
Art Eatman
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As a right-hander, in a real-world deal where I had no choice but draw and pray, I'm turning left, correct? I'd *have* to sweep past the 9 o'clock to get to the 7 o'clock--which is foolish.

Anytime you engage targets which are not in front of you, the pistol never stops moving. You don't sweep, stop, fire, sweep, stop, fire. It's sweep, fire, continue the sweep, fire...That's why you practice imagined scenarios. You add in such things as dropping to the ground while shooting, to spoil the opponents' aim; or fall backwards out of sight (if possible) while drawing...It doesn't hurt to make whiny noises and yowl "Please don't shoot me!" while doing this, of course...(Unless they're looking the other way, in which case you're silent as the little mouse until you fire the first shot.)

Whatever is needed to stay alive is the only important factor. I don't give a hoot how they do it in Hollywood.

, Art
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Old May 21, 2001, 09:23 PM   #5
GSB
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"Which one would you go for first? 9 or 7? "

9. If you turned clockwise to engage 7 first, 9 would fall behind you -- bad tactics. Turning counterclockwise to first engage 9 would turn you toward both attackers.
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Old May 22, 2001, 11:17 AM   #6
SKN
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Art Eatman

Would you not agree sir that 'speed is fine but accuracy is final' and in order to put hits on more than one adversary, whatever the orientation to the shooter, one must:

1) move the gun,

2) stop the gun to align the sights or index the gun on the target, then

3) press the trigger before moving on to the next target ?

By simply sweeping across one target enroute to another while pressing the trigger without stopping, however momentarily to align the sights or to index the weapon on target, even more motion is introduced to the weapon which is bound to throw the shot astray. Or, is it your intention that the round(s) directed at the first adversary are to simply 'rattle' or suppress their ability to shoot at you? Is your 'draw and pray' the equivalent of 'spray and pray'?

As to the point of this thread, I'd put rounds on the 9 o'clock subject first, since by my stepping forward, they become the target closest to my gun and that movement allows me to start to gain the advantage of mobility. As Art pointed out, moving can make me harder for him and his compadre to hit.

I would not however, sacrifice the combination of accuracy and mobility by going to ground or falling backward without some tangible benefit, availing myself of cover as an example. In the end, I agree with Art's concluding thought, whatever it takes to win the engagement and live is the only matter of importance. It's just that I see that outcome more likely by shooting accurately and quickly while maintaining mobility.
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Old May 22, 2001, 03:37 PM   #7
Art Eatman
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SKN, your step two is how/why people miss running deer and doves.

It takes practice. The idea was told to me by Chip McCormick, and when somebody of his expertise speaks, I listen! What was new to me was the application to pistol shooting; the actual method is the way I'd been killing deer, doves, rabbits, quail, etc., for decades...

Basically, you're increasing pressure on the trigger as you sweep; just before the front sight bears, you tell your trigger-finger to do its thing; when the gun actually fires, the sights are dead-on on the target--and you keep sweeping toward the next target.

At an IPSC or IDPA match, *listen* to the top shooters as they shoot multiple targets. For the best ones, the sound of the gun is a fairly steady beat, or pair of beats for "double-taps".

Say you have a crossing dove. You bring up the gun, catch up to the dove and pass him and hold the lead--continuing the swing, right? Your gun is moving while you shoot, and you keep moving in the traditional "follow through" due to the discrete time-lapse between pulling the trigger and the shot exiting the barrel. If there is a second bird, you continue moving and repeat the process.

Hope this is a bit more clear,

, Art
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Old May 22, 2001, 06:06 PM   #8
SKN
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Art,

I absolutely agree that lead and follow-through are a necessity for a moving target(s) but alas, I remain unconvinced that the same holds true for addressing dual/multiple _stationary_ adversaries. I honestly believe, based on my observations and experience with stationary multiples, that failing to stop the gun to align or index will cause it to overswing or underswing and either push the shot(s) off in the direction of traverse or cause them to fall short of the intended target in the path of traverse.

I don't rule out the possibility that an accomplished shootist, who is skilled at that technique, would be able to 'bracket' the first target with a string of trigger presses and hit with one or perhaps more of that string. I just don't think the average pistolero will meet with much success in trying it.

I fear the result then may be, at best peripheral hits on the adversary which are insufficient to cause the termination of their lethal conduct and, at worst complete misses which at the conclusion must still be accounted for.

My 0-2's worth.
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Old May 22, 2001, 07:35 PM   #9
Art Eatman
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SKN, I follow your point, and agree that it's certainly not for the average home owner who has to shoot at a couple of Bad Guys in self-defense.

There's always a bit of a dichotomy when on subjects such as this. It is generally more likely that the relatively few people (at sites like TFL) who discuss this sort of thing are serious about developing a fairly high level of skill, compared to the average guy who doesn't spend a lot of time thinking about it.

I guess I take it for granted that the folks here will strive for superior levels of skill.

At the 1982 IPSAC World Match in South Africa, four individuals were tied for top scores. The shoot-off had three IPSC targets at five yards. When the buzzer sounded, there was a 1.5-second interval before it sounded again; three head shots were required. First round, a four-way tie. Ross Seyfried finally won...

So: Can one stop and aim and shoot, etc., and still hit three targets in 1.5 seconds? I think not.

I can't match the "Top Guns", but I can train and try to emulate a Seyfried or a McCormick.

, Art
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