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Old June 28, 2000, 09:15 PM   #1
Rusty S
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I've thought of a small flat single column 380 for always.

What of the double column 380's to add to the always gun when you've no specific reason to be nervous but want a bit more? Beretta 84F, BDA 380, CZ83, HScSuper types et al.

I know they are the size of a service caliber compact, yet remain anemic in stopping power. But they do carry 12-13 rounds, and two spares gives you 36-40 rounds.

I believe in 12 or 20 gauge; in 44 mag lever guns, in SKS's with soft points, or 9mm +P hollowpoints out of a carbine barrel. I remain skeptical of pistol stopping power, so why not go for more chances of hitting the very vital parts?


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Old June 28, 2000, 10:05 PM   #2
branrot
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The advantage of a .380 is that it fits in a small gun, for example a PPK. If you're going to go bigger, you might as well go bigger all around. If I'm going to lug around the weight and size of 13 rounds of .380, I'd just as well carry 13 or more rounds of 9mm. Remember, the .380 is really just a short 9mm; the bullet is the same diameter but just shorter. There are a few guns out there that carry 13 or so rounds of 9mm in packages about the same size: P99 (16 rds of 9), 6906 (12 rounds of 9), Glock 19 (15 rds of 9), etc.
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Old June 29, 2000, 12:59 AM   #3
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I own a BDA380 -- due to it's very lite recoil and considerable size (for a .380, that is -- it's bigger than my 3913TSW which is a 9mm parabellum), I can shoot it more accurately than any of my other guns and 14 rounds of .380ACP beats 6 rounds of .38 special any day of the week.

Unfortunately, it doesn't see much action now a days. It's too big for concealed carry (at least down here in southern Florida) and when it comes to home defense, I'd rather have 12 rounds of .40S&W (in my 4006TSW) or 15 rounds of .45ACP (in my P14-45) over 14 rounds of .380ACP. However, it has become my wife's home defense weapon as she, too, can shoot it accurately without having to devote too many hours at the range and I would rather have her back me up with 14 rounds of .380 that she can shoot accurately than 14 rounds of 9mm (like in a S&W 5906) that she can't shoot as aaccurately.

Full-size / hi-cap .380's definitely have their place! Regards,
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Old June 29, 2000, 02:49 AM   #4
Rusty S
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Where I live, I am informed it is legal to have a fully loaded ( one in the chamber plus a full magazine ) pistol under the seat without a CCW, and it is legal to have a rifle or shotgun with empty chamber and loaded magazine the-last-I-heard. The empty chambers for long guns is part of the wildlife hunting and fishing code.

The question is if I have ammo to get to the car or truck and either: (a thru y) leave; or (z) remain and if needed engage with far more effective weapons.

I like what someone said in the "5 rounds of 38's" thread about five 38 spl. cartridges being powerful enough to do the job, used properly, but too few to be comfortable with.

The 380 high cap seems kinda similar to me. Marginal enough power to keep me nervous about making every shot count but still 9 more rounds to settle things with if it lasts that long.

Finally, I never have figured out what was wrong with the saying that you can double the amount of physical injury/trauma with a second hit. ( Yes, I do know that if the first shot doesn't take a person out there are metabolic changes that reduce the chance that additional trauma from one at a time shots will be effective. But orthopedic or cns injuries are difficult to overcome with willpower. )

To paraphrase another saying, when I open a box of bullets I know that one of the 50 is the magic bullet that is all I'll need. However. Until someone can tell me which one that is, I'll carry as many of them as I can.

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Old June 29, 2000, 05:05 AM   #5
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Rusty, I'm the one who started that trend with regards to "being well armed with five rounds of .38 special" and since one of my first guns was a BDA380, you can better understand why I was asking if 5 rounds of .380 is enough.

A lot of people are into this thing that "bullet placement" comes first and if "you do your part, any bullet will do it's part" and so forth and so on. However, before pistols became the "in" thing, I knew of no LEO who carried a five round revolver when a six rounder was available despite the fact that most encounters were ended with only one or two shots having to be fired.

Everyone wanted that sixth bullet and why not? Another point that is rarely addressed is that despite the fact that LEO must regularily qualify with their firearm, a 1997 DOJ study indicates that 91% of shots fired by LEO's missed their intended targets. If trained LEOs do so poorly in real life shoot-outs, then it stands to reason that less trained private citizens will do even worse.

Therefore, I completelty agree with you that hi-cap magazines are a definite benefit and why a hi-cap .380ACP is the perfect choice for my wife as her home defense gun. She works full-time plus is a full-time mother. Consequently she does not have the opportunity to get out to the range very frequently. The BDA380 kicks like a .22 because it's a fairly large size when compared to other .380's out there today and she can remain a good shot with a minimum amount of time spent at the range and, as a result, I feel that she is better armed with that gun than with a .38 special that holds less bullets or a 9mm that she might not be able to shoot as accurately.

Also, if facing three BGs, five shots each of .380 has a better chance of stopping them than two shots each of .38 special. This is why when I was buying my very first gun and I narrowed it down between a Colt Detective Special with six rounds of .38 special and the Browning BDA380 with 14 (13+1) rounds of .380ACP (both guns were about the same size with the Colt revolver being a little bit bigger), I picked the BDA380.

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Old June 29, 2000, 12:06 PM   #6
JimFox
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Interesting question. I have a Beretta 84B and like it quite a lot. Very reliable and accurate (or at least it was when my eyes were younger). I prefer the Beretta over the BDA because of the way the safety works.

Interestingly enough it is almost exactly the same size as a Kimber Ultra. The grip on the Beretta is just slightly thicker (1/10 of an inch or so), but the overall length, width and height are really close. If you use a 7 round mag for the Kimber that gives you 8 rounds of .45ACP as opposed to 14 rounds of .380. The Kimber with one spare mag would give you 15 rounds - only one more than the Beretta without a spare mag. Plus you do go the full 14 or 15 rounds - you haven't had to do a reload with the Beretta. Both seem to weight about the same when fully loaded.

The Beretta does not conceal quite as well as the Kimber because the Beretta's narrower slide and barrel tend to cause the grip to torque out a bit more when it is tucked into a belt. For best results both should be carried in a holster.

For an "always" gun either would be "OK" if you "always" wore a holster. And then you could make a choice based on your balance of firepower vs. stopping power. Single stack .380s are thinner - and some few are appreciably shorter and not as tall. But you can also get heavier calibers in smaller packages. But most tend to be fairly heavy.

To me, an "always" gun must be suitable for pocket carry and the best for that (in a reasonable caliber) is something in the airweight j frame class, either with a shrouded hammer or one of the "hammerless" versions. Some of the smaller autos such as the Kahrs might also fit - but I don't have any experience with them. Also the advantage of the "pocket revolver" as opposed the the "pocket auto" is that the revolver can be fired more than once from the pocket. (You probably wouldn't want to do that while carrying the gun in the pocket of your jeans though.)

My "always" gun - when I don't want (or don't have the time) to fool with a holster and proper dress is an older S&W airweight bodyguard with clip-grips and a speed strip.


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Old June 29, 2000, 02:40 PM   #7
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I bought mine mainly as a collector's item. I appreciate Beretta pistols, and I found a NIB 84F/wood grips with two factory 13 round mags for a very reasonable price. It really is a neat little piece and shoots like a dream. Mine has been absolutely reliable.

My wife has adopted it as her pistol. It's as much a comfort to me as it is to her to know that she has a baker's dozen Federal Hydrashok's loaded into a dependable and easy to shoot pistol.
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Old June 29, 2000, 03:04 PM   #8
beemerb
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If trained LEOs do so poorly in real life shoot-outs, then it stands to reason that less trained
private citizens will do even worse.
WHo says private citizens are less trained.You are assuming here.Yes some LEO's are well trained because they take the time on their own to train but many do not,The ones that do not are probably less trained than a lot of the people on the fireing line.
Many here shoot a lot of ammo here with a lot of very realistic drills so I think you statement is way too broad.

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Old June 29, 2000, 03:09 PM   #9
George Hill
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hmmm... Like maybe a Skorpion holding 30 rounds?

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Old June 30, 2000, 12:15 AM   #10
radom
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I like the BDA .380 but it is a bit big to pack. I would prefer a 9mm with that large of a gun myself. My Dad has a BDA and for him its a good choice due to arthritis. I have had a few Baretta 34s and thought they where large for a .380 so the BDA seems huge. I thought the BDA and the double stack Barreta was the same exact gun as the BDA is made by Baretta,but I am not that familer with the Baretta DA .380.
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Old June 30, 2000, 08:59 AM   #11
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beemerb, as a rule, LEOs are better trained than private citizens. I go to the range about once a month and try to hit the X-ring at 75 feet under slow, controled fire. I also do rapid fire at 25 feet. I would HOPE that the average LEO who is out there to "protect me and my family" (no flames with regard to that statement please) is better trained than that! I fully recognize that there are private citizens who engage in a much higher degree of training and are better trained than the AVERAGE LEO, but in general, the average LEO SHOULD BE better trained than the typical private citizen -- there's one individual at work who has a .357mag revolver for his home defense gun and carries a .22LR and has NEVER fired either gun in the more than two years that he has owned them (I would suspect that a good percentage of gun owners fall in that category -- they buy a gun, shoot it at the range a few times and then throw it in a night stand and forget about it).

radom, the Browning BDA was made by Beretta. It's basicly the same gun except for the appearance (slide, grips, etc.) and the safety. I, personally, prefer the safety found on the BDA while others like the safety found on the Beretta but basicly it's the same gun.

[This message has been edited by FUD (edited June 30, 2000).]
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Old June 30, 2000, 09:59 AM   #12
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Ok... I am no LEO basher. I have GREAT respect for the people who put their lives on the line every day.

And there are exceptions to every statement. All that said.... In almost every training class I have taken... the LEO were the LEAST trained of the class. There are excetions.. two FINE officers from a little town between Austin and San Antonio were outstanding. But most of the officers in my classes could not hit the broad side of a barn. A number of other shooters with whom I train have noticed similar situations in their training classes. (An air conditioning mechanic recently qualified better than 80% of a local agency in a Surefire training class.)

Police Olympics were recently held here in Austin. The IDPA club with whom I shoot regularly hosted the practical pistol competition. Our Marksman level Safety Officers could have finished 2nd or 3rd out of 40 odd competitiors. (FYI Marksman is the lowest level of classification in IDPA)

Am I ragging on LEO here??? No way. What I am saying is in many cases they do NOT get the best level of training. They deserve much better. I applaude departments who bring in outside instructors to better train their people. I tip my hat even more to the officers who spend their own hard earned money on such training.

While there are officers I WOULD want with me if the merde hit the occilator... If I have a choice... I want trained private citizen shooters on my 6.

All that said to quote Col Cooper below.... If you are not trained... Get trained.. its the best money you will ever spend.



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It is long been a principal of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully. - Jeff Cooper
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Old June 30, 2000, 05:55 PM   #13
Rusty S
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Let me try putting it a different way.

When I'm not carrying a gun - then I'll have a single stack 380 tucked on me somewhere.

What I'm talking about is when as you go out the door something whispers to you to be careful. I'm talking precognition, the work of the unconsious, the hunch from years of living and breathing with the deviant behavior of others. Whatever it is, for no specific reason you suspect you may need a gun, rediculous as it sounds. That is when I'm saying grab a high cap 380.

Figure I've a single stack Mauser HSc in my hip pocket. If you get nervous, the single stack *stays* in your hip pocket, but the double column 13+1 Hsc Super in it's holster plus a carrier for two spare mags gets strapped on under a parka, whatever. Everything works same big or little gun.



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Old June 30, 2000, 11:10 PM   #14
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I would like to make *two* points.

1. I tried to like the .380 for years but have finally given up. The Walthers were unreliable (all of them) and the .380 was too puney a cartridge to hurt somebody. As far as shooting the BG multiple times that's great if they will stand for it.

2. Recoil is only a problem at the range. If your wife is staring at a BG and freightened enough to shoot him, she wouldn't notice the recoil of a .50 cal. She should be shooting a 9mm with Federal Hydroshoks. for range practice supply her with some light load, light bullet reloads. Some one you know will reload them that way for you....Com on be resourceful. She should fire a *Few* full power loads just so she knows the score.

3. OK... so I can't count. Of the cops that I know and that's pretty many, they don't get in much range time. They are not really gun people any more like the old days. Several that I know are pretty ignorant about guns in fact.
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Old July 1, 2000, 12:12 AM   #15
FUD
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Rusty S, I was agreeing with your through out this entire trend UNTIL you decided to "put it another way". I like to carry my S&W3913 (8 rounds of 9mm) which is smaller in size than my BDA380 (14 rounds of .380ACP). If I'm going somewhere that I have a "bad feeling" about, I'm going to do one of two things: [1] not go -- why look for trouble (even if I win a possible gun fight, I might lose the legal battle which may follow -- it's best to avoid trouble if possible); or [2] if I really have to go, then I take my S&W4013 (ten rounds of .40S&W). Granted, I give up four rounds when compared to my BDA380 but each .40S&W bullet has stopping power in the mid-nineties compared with stopping power in the mid-sixties for each .380ACP bullet. Or, put another way, I feel better armed with 10 rounds of .40S&W than I do with 14 rounds of .380ACP!

Again, I'm not dismissing the hi-cap .380's -- I definitely think that they have their place for those that can not handle the recoil of a 9mm parabellum or when compared against a six shot .38 special revolver of the same size.
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Old July 1, 2000, 12:26 PM   #16
Rusty S
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Got a 39-2 I shouldn't like. Doesn't fit my hands right, doesn't fit my philosophies, and so on. The only thing it does right is hit everything I shoot at better than any other handgun I have - fast. We're talking Master's level with regular practice.

But when I'm righteously ( as opposed to having a hinky feeling ) concerned, I reach for my 4" barreled fixed sight model 58 41's, all three of them. I shoot them with moderate ( i.e. 3/4 power ) defense loads at expert level with occasional practice. I shoot them expert with full charge loads with regular practice.

PS: finally made up my mind and bought the "always" 380 - a 1955 Browning in single action with grip and thumb safety like the 1911. Guess that means either getting a couple of 10/71's ( the post '68 longer barrelled target sighted 380 ) smithed to my satisfaction or learning how to conceal my Browning Practical.

It finally ocurred to me this morning my original question starting this thread was rooted in the old service revolver/CC or backup revolver wisdom of having your service and backup weapons as similar in function as possible. If you wore a S&W mod 10 for duty, you got a chief or 2" model 12 ( 12 was the lightweight k frame )for off duty, and if you wore an Official Police on duty, you carried a Detective Special or Cobra. Idea was they both worked the same way so training carried over to both and you could reflexively do what was needed with the guns when your attention should be focused at least mostly on the tactical situation. The idea still seems valid. Interesting discussion. Thank you all.

PS - gives my signature line a different meaning now you know I'm talking pocket pistols and Hi-Powers ( not to take away anything from Dieudonne Saive for his role in HiPower development ).



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Old July 1, 2000, 05:11 PM   #17
johnwill
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I see a hi-cap .380 pistol as the answer to a question nobody should have ever asked.

If I have room to carry a hi-cap .380, I also have room for a Keltec P11, and I'll take 11 rounds of 9mm over a similar quantity of .380 every time, given the same sight and weight of firearm.

The real reason to carry a .380 is that some of them are small and light, my Colt Mustang Pocketlite being a case in point. If I want to carry something larger, it'll also speak with more athority.
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Old July 1, 2000, 10:47 PM   #18
Crashmaster
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These types of guns do have a place. My mother, a widower, owns a Beretta 84. After my father died, she asked me to help her buy a pistol, since she now lives alone. My first suggestion was a small or medium frame .38 special. Very simple to operate. Pull the trigger, it goes bang. She didn't like the DA pull. Too heavy for her. Ma's no spring chicken! My next suggestion was a 9mm, but this was quickly ruled out the first time she touched off a round. She didn't like the recoil.
Finally, we found a handgun she liked. The Beretta. If an 85 had been in the shop, that would have sufficed. But, it happened to be a 13 shot 84F.
When this pistol is decocked, the hammer is intercepted about halfway down, giving a surprisingly short and easy DA pull. Recoil was managable for her.
I set her up with 102 grain Remington Golden Sabers, and now she shoots like a champ! Way to go, Ma!
For the recoil sensitive, these pistols definitely have a place.
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Old July 2, 2000, 02:03 AM   #19
radom
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Very good for a house auto for recoil sensitive folks does make good sence. In the house I just use a auto loader carbine, sure beats a .380. I just dont see that much use for a big double stack .380 when a 870 rem would do better.
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Old July 2, 2000, 02:41 PM   #20
7th Fleet
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I own a high capacity Makarov .380, 13 plus 1 in the tube and it is a nice but heavy gun. I carry my Kel-Tec P-32 and the Mak stays in the safe.

7th

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