The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old August 10, 2001, 04:10 PM   #76
AdrenalineJunky
Member
 
Join Date: July 16, 2001
Location: Ukiah, CA
Posts: 47
Where are all the Thai fighters?

Wow, I'm a bit late on this thread...Muay Thai, going on nine years. Started as a freshman in high school. I slacked off the last couple of years, but got back into a regular routine a couple months ago. And no, I don't mean your local gym's aerobic version of Muay Thai, or the American version of Kickboxing, for that matter. Also, because of my girlfriend's displeasure with my "bad temper," I've been doing Tai Chi, but that's from a book. No I don't teach. Hell, I spent the last two years looking for a sparring partner! Muay Thai goes very well with a knife, but, quite honestly, the thought of integrating one of my firearms into a combination had never even crossed my mind! Duh, ***, huh? I bet a long gun would go well, though. Hope I never purchase any furniture from spartacus's store, at least furniture I don't intend to pay for!
__________________
Work the ditches, beat the brush...and bang'em down!
AdrenalineJunky is offline  
Old August 10, 2001, 04:57 PM   #77
Spectre
Staff Alumnus
 
Join Date: October 23, 1998
Location: DC
Posts: 3,274
Spartacus now works in an ER in SC. He stopped repo'ing his furniture before he killed anyone, thank god!

A lot of different perspectives, here. Much as Skorzeny and I disagree on some topics (namely, efficacy of some systems), I will be near the last to acuse him of ignorance.

I believe zen was much less influential in genuine Japanese warriors' lives than mikkyo. (Do you know what mikkyo is, ghillieman?) I believe the integration of zen into some Japanese martial arts is a fairly recent act, so mourning the "loss" is rather laughable, since it wasn't traditionally there.

Interesting to lament the loss of the "old ways" while quoting a recent karate master!

The ultimate aim of the art of karate lies not in victory or defeat, but in the perfection of the characters of its participants.

Hah! Spiritual development is wonderful, but I'll take vanilla if it means I can't save my family when they're in trouble.

Contrast Funakoshi's quote with Takamatsu (a kobudo master):

The essence of all Martial Arts and military strategies is self protection and the prevention of
danger.


The quote goes on to speak of the well-rounded and spiritually healthy trainee, but the CORE is SELF-DEFENSE.
Spectre is offline  
Old August 10, 2001, 06:20 PM   #78
Skorzeny
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 29, 1999
Posts: 1,938
Ghillieman:

Thanks for reminding me that my beer cup is empty. I will re-fill it immediately.

As for the badly garbled quote, is it from Funakoshi Giichin (the founder of Shotokan) or Frank Funakoshi who runs a Teriyaki shop two blocks from me?

Spectre:

Excellent point on Zen. I thinkt that A LOT of people think of various Karate, Judo and "Jujutsu" ryu's (particularly the last) as being "ancient and traditional" when in fact they are modern systems that began life in the late 19th century.

Some even confuse transitional systems such as Daito-Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu as being "traditional."

The fact is that true Kobujtsu (including real traditional Jujutsu) by and large involved the use of, and training in, medieval battlefield weapons (sword, lance, shield, bow, spear, dagger, etc.).

Then when the wearing of two swords was banned, many martial schools began to emphasize empty hand and less-lethal weapons. Daito-Ryu, for example, was one of these. One can still see much of the sword-influenced techniques in these arts.

During this transitional period emerged a series of "modern" Budo systems, beginning with Kodokan Judo.

It's sad that how many folks are mislead by mystical "Dojo oral history" rather than by actual history grounded in reality. This has been, sadly, a much neglected field in the academic history.

Skorzeny
__________________
For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu
Skorzeny is offline  
Old August 10, 2001, 06:52 PM   #79
AdrenalineJunky
Member
 
Join Date: July 16, 2001
Location: Ukiah, CA
Posts: 47
Does anyone...

practice Escrima? I've always been intersted in that.
__________________
Work the ditches, beat the brush...and bang'em down!
AdrenalineJunky is offline  
Old August 12, 2001, 01:29 PM   #80
ghillieman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 7, 2001
Posts: 110
gentleman, First let me state my goal is not to contend with anyone, if you will reread my post"s I tried to convey that the "spirit of bushido" is the dying. the life style has been gone like you say skorzeny for centurys. A good reference to this is a book by Inazato Nitobe. the code of bushido.. anyone reading will be awe struck by the magnitude of those samurai's dedication to their master. Also specter if you will reread my posts you will see that I stated that karate used to be a deadly self defence Not a sport..... As one of my teachers used to say Traditional in spirit only.. this spirit is what is important.... times and ages change but the warriors spirit is the same..... and as the ages pass us bye those who are truely deicated to it are vanishing.EXAMPLE: hOW MANY OF YOU STOOD OUTSIDE OF THE DOJO FOR A YEAR BEFORE BEING ACCEPTTED IN? AND THAN MISSING EVEN ONE NIGHT WOULD MEAN EXPOLSION, FOR THE NEXT YEAR.......? see what I mean... thats the way it used to be..... we were made to give up all our earthly things and to have nothing .... nothing . I can tell you . only the serious stundents went this far...... Today it just isnt there........... now times have changed cant find anyone willing to go this far... since you guys are On the firingline I take it that you all are good guys ,wanting to save our freedoms if so then no matter if we diagree on this we are bothers in arms..... take care all of you this is my last post on this........ live with warriors spirit............ghillieman
ghillieman is offline  
Old August 12, 2001, 04:03 PM   #81
Spectre
Staff Alumnus
 
Join Date: October 23, 1998
Location: DC
Posts: 3,274
Dude,

I'll be blunt. People with real lives do not have time to stand outside a dojo for a year. In some old (by definition) kobudo styles, the student was awarded kaiden in well under a year, in some cases. No, total "mastery" had not been obtained, but the student knew all the movements, and could practice them to complete mastery while he went about his life.

What is traditional is this: being willing to kill or die for a cause. This attitude has been around for thousands of years, and (looking around at TFL and my friends in general) I don't see it dying anytime soon. In any generation, there are those who say, and those who do. Let us not confuse some romantic ideal with real life, in the past or present.

I humbly suggest you check out www.e-budo.com, where the spirit you speak of is alive and well.

Peace.
Spectre is offline  
Old August 12, 2001, 04:31 PM   #82
Byron Quick
Staff In Memoriam
 
Join Date: November 13, 1998
Location: Waynesboro, Georgia, USA
Posts: 2,361
Nitobe wrote about the code of bushido AFTER the Meiji Restoration. His formal education was as a historian specializing in WESTERN history. He was not trained to read classical Japanese kanji. Before Nitobe you can read Japanese literature and documents...according to present day scholars the word bushido is used maybe a dozen times in centuries. Nitobe made it up. The year in the rain thing is way cool but as Spectre relates-impractical...and always has been. In the surviving ryu-ha, a formal introduction to the instructor by a repected acquaintance and a personal interview are the prerequisites for at least probationary training in the ryu. And, in the non family ryu-ha, this has been the standard for at least three hundred years. Of course, in the family ryu-ha, you could stand outside the dojo until you died of old age...if you weren't a relative, you weren't going to be admitted.
Byron Quick is offline  
Old August 12, 2001, 08:46 PM   #83
Skorzeny
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 29, 1999
Posts: 1,938
Loyalty in "Bushido"

Ghillieman:

Something you have to understand here. During medieval times in Japan, your "Bushido" notion of loyalty and devotion were the ideal, not the practice.

Bushido was about as widely practiced as chivalry (of the Arthurian knights of the table kind) was in medieval Europe, which is to say very little.

Loyalty was about as important as anywhere else. Meaning, it was touted and celebrated as paramount, but little given or expected in reality.

Afterall, Tokugawa Ieyasu, the founder of the Tokugawa Shogunate (that ruled until the Meiji Restoration) himself feigned submission to Toyotomi Hideyoshi (himself a pretender) until the death of the latter, afterwhich he rose in opposition to the Toyotomi cause, vanquished his foes and made himself the ruler of the Bakufu (tent or military government).

You see, Ghillieman, Bushido (like the Knights of the Round Table) was a myth, a poetry and an ideal. So, nothing really was ever "lost" in practice. Loyalty of the Bushido quality has been around everywhere (even in the materialistic United States) from honorable men, who, I agree, are scarce in number.

It does not require one to stand outside a Japanese martial art Dojo for a year or to recite mumbo jumbo Bushido myth for one to possess honor and loyalty. Those things come from our everyday interactions and actions with less-than mythic, ordinary individuals, not what we say we believe in with our tongues.

Skorzeny
__________________
For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu
Skorzeny is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.08617 seconds with 7 queries