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Old May 28, 2001, 04:53 PM   #51
norielX
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Anti-gun MA's perplex me....

I started shooting and MA at a very young age. For me, the two went hand in hand. I guess I realized that in the real world, you can't rely on rules or civility in a fight. For me, martial arts and firearms are equalizers. I remember getting into a little flame war with an anti-gun guy who said people should just take things out with their fists. Then I mentioned people don't fight fair and take knives. he said, knives were unfair. I then said, "well, I know martial arts, is that fair?" He started spewing expletives, which just showed me we was unprepared and underarmed for a mental battle.

On to my point, MA's that dislike guns, I believe are just limiting themselves. I think they're just mad that all of their years of training and sparring can be instantly nullified by an untrained ruffian wielding a POS, saturday night special.

That's my take...
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Old June 1, 2001, 08:47 AM   #52
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"Mrs. Carter, the undertaker will wipe his butt before the sun comes up".

I bet you could sell that line to Clint Eastwood.
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Old June 2, 2001, 06:24 AM   #53
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Strategy is neccesary but only goes so far. I've seen Ken Shamrock and what he can do up close and personal, if you want to beat that guy in a street fight your strategy better involve a firearm of some type and an extra mag, period.
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Old June 2, 2001, 12:24 PM   #54
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I don't think your idea of a "street fight" and mine are necessarily very close. Had a big bad bully chase me into a construction site when I was young. He was several years older, much stronger, meaner etc. There was a ladder leaning against a concrete block wall that was still under construction. I climbed it and the fool followed. I pulled the last block laid down in the top course. Bombs away. This guy was about twice my age, over twice my weight, twice my strength etc. It didn't matter once I used strategy to gain the tactical advantage.

And I'll take the same postition with Ken Shamrock. Put me on top of a wall with concrete blocks and any number of UFC fighters are welcome to come crawl up the ladder.

I'll say it again, people, proper use of strategy does not entail facing up square with someone who is bigger, stronger, faster, and better trained in close quarters combat and saying,"Better watch out, I know strategy." If you face up square to someone like that you're going to get pounded into pudding.
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Old June 4, 2001, 09:08 AM   #55
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The seems to be an assumption that "Ken Shamrock" doesn't know strategy.
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Old June 4, 2001, 04:29 PM   #56
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Or, more accurately, that the time to use strategy is not when you have no choice other than pure unarmed hand-to-hand, because then your strategy has already failed.
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Old June 4, 2001, 11:45 PM   #57
Byron Quick
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My grand strategy has failed if I am faced with a confrontation.

There are many assumptions in this thread. One is: What is victory? Is it beating your opponent into blood pudding?

Not necessarily. Victory for you is defined by your objectives. Victory for your opponent is defined by his objectives.

So consider this. My opponent's objective is to beat me into blood pudding. My objective is to remain in my original state. I run so fast he can't catch me. I both meet my objective for victory and deny my opponent's objective for victory. I win, he loses.

Or this scenario. For some reason, my family has been targeted for elimination by terrorists. An eight man team attacks during a picnic. I begin shooting terrorists. They begin shooting my family. End result. Eight dead terrorists...and all my family. I am unharmed. They won. I lost. They achieved their objective for victory while denying my achievement of my objective. Note that the objective for victory in this case did not include personal survival for either side.
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Old July 30, 2001, 12:18 AM   #58
youngun
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kruger:
"11 years aikido (nidan)
6 years iaido (nidan... training in japan helps)
1 year judo (6th kyu)

Amongst the aiki-fruits there are plenty of gun control types,
while the more pragmatic aikidoka are gun neutral. The local iai
types are gun neutral, but the japanese swordsmen couldn't
understand my liking for firearms. The local judoka are pretty
neutral."

Hey, kruger, pretty impressive resume.
I've practiced aikido for a bit over 8 years, in four states, and I have to say the anti-gun trend seems to be a particularly left-coast phenomenon.

Not that I haven't seen it otherwise, but go to NY or D.C., or anywhere in the southeast, and lots and lots of aikidoka are shooters.

Over here (just moved to OR myself) these last three states seem to have a particularly socialist attitude in general, so it's understandable that the folks around here practicing ANYTHING would be largely anti.

(much of the aikido also seems to be somewhat "modified" for a certain ideology - though presumably not yours :-)

Aikido Schools of Ueshiba (of which I'm a member) is headed by Mitsugi Saotome Sensei, whose favorite and oft-cited quote "Good gun control... TWO HANDS!!" pretty much sums up his view.

He lived in D.C. for many years, where ALL handguns are illegal, so he's seen it up close.
(He's in FL these days. -wonder why.)

But then, his right-hand man (and my personal favorite teacher) happens to be quite against guns. Never was able to get very far talking with him about it, though.

--
As for the compatibility of empty-hand training and modern martial art (pistol/rifle craft), it always comes down to what you're calling training, and with whom you're doing it.

The closer you can get to real-time, the more you can push that psycho-emotional envelope, then the better your chance of keeping cool under fire.

Most popular martial arts (maybe aikido among the worse) do not go very far into reality.
But this is simply beacuse the popluace doesn't like being scared, and often just needs some exercise.

-that said, I find it hard to imagine that practicing relaxed thinking on your feet as people beat the **** out of you will NOT help you perform a smooth draw, assess and fire (if necessary.)

And this is beside the fact that you may actually find it easier and more efficient to break the BG's neck/back than to shoot.


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Old July 30, 2001, 11:58 AM   #59
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I practice Parker's American Kenpo Karate and Doce Pares. I have also begun to study Brazillian Jiu-jitsu. This give me a good exposure to empty hand striking, some grappeling, and stick/knife training as well.
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Old July 31, 2001, 01:16 AM   #60
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Firearms

Been practicing Krav Maga 2 1/2 years. Training with firearms in the military prior to Krav Maga.

Most of the people I train with practice Gun Fu on thier own.

However, we do have open basic firearms usage training seminar with trip to range, and it is Mandatory at our school for all black belts no matter what art to train in.

We also very much encourage people to at least try and go shooting too understand the principle of the firearms and how they work.

I hope this answersyour question.
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Old July 31, 2001, 02:17 PM   #61
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Guess I will throw my .02 in...
As you might deduce from my screen name, I am into grappling!
I have studied for nearly 19 years. Predominantly muay thai, Kali (VERY weapons oriented), and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. In fact, I am partners in a school in which we teach BJJ and Thai. My partner is one of the original Gracie students to boot. And we as a school have a very tight interest in firearms, as my partners' brother is literally the owner of Taurus firearms... So...
We like guns, as does everyone who trains with us...
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Old July 31, 2001, 06:15 PM   #62
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1st dan in Kendo, Arnis, Judo & Hapkido.
Former Criminology Instructor.

Barehand is good when no more steel weapons to use. What I've learned from my martial arts is the mobility, discipline, self confident and self control to get into a fight.

Thanks
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Old August 2, 2001, 03:40 PM   #63
Johnny Got His Gun.1
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TKD for 16 years. Doses of hapkido, jui-jutsu, and boxing thrown in for good measure. Smattering of weapons training with staff, stick, knife, and sword.

My grandmaster is a pro-carry man as is my master. He and I have shot at a few handgun matches together. I try to impress upon students that learning safe gun handling and shooting skills can save their lives as easily as anything a martial art has to offer.

A friend once said that he felt a martial artist is obsolete by not learning to use a gun.

I tend to agree with that sentiment; it put me over the edge for finalizing my first handgun purchase a few years ago.
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Old August 6, 2001, 12:36 AM   #64
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ikken hiastsu

okinanwan shorei-ryu 20 years. also . tangsodo, shalintsu kung fu mixed in ....... ikkenhiasatsu means victory with one strike. the martial art I studied was drilled in us by our sensai to perfection not the stuff you see on the tube but real self defence. today the new generation seems not to be able to work out everyday to dedicate thier lives to greater understanding in the dojo. to be first in their lives instead of tv or some other diverting pleasure . hence bushido ( warrior spirit ) will be lost ... I have trained hundreds of students in my years and out of all those only a hand full made it to mastery. today I cant even get one to show up for class.. now if this is a sign of the future you can kiss all your guns , freedoms , everything, good bye. there just wont be anyone left to fight ... kara-te was the way pheasnts defended themself after arms were banned....... what will happen this time? as for firearms ... every weapon has a nature to it. the marital arts teaches to learn the nature of all weapons starting with your empty hands(karate).. all the people I know of who study are AAA+ shooters.... THE THORN STANDS TO PROTECT THE ROSE, YET IT IS AT PEACE AND SEEKS NOT CONFLICT........ GHILLIEMAN
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Old August 6, 2001, 03:00 AM   #65
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"today the new generation seems not to be able to work out everyday to dedicate thier lives to greater understanding in the dojo."


No, I think the "new generation" doesn't buy into all the pajama wearing, "wax on, wax off", chi channeling, or breaking perfectly good pieces of wood.

Yea, I'll admit it. Bruce Lee and (gulp) the "karate kid" pushed me into my first foray with martial arts.

"Master Wing Chung Chan's far eastern ancient Green Tiger style of hip hop twae do !!!" Or something like that...

The whole ballet in pajamas routine bored me after a few weeks. Years later I discovered Thai kickboxing, boxing, and freestyle grappling.

Every year I notice more and more kids getting involved in grappling and real striking arts. They come here to have fun, get in shape, but mostly to fight and compete. None of that at master Wing Chun Chan's place. Too dangerous. Lot's of board breaking though.
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Old August 6, 2001, 03:19 PM   #66
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I love when martial artists start talking about "Bushido."

I seriously doubt that the vast majority of those who talk of Bushido really understands the historical, cultural and social implication of what Bushido really meant.

Its much too romanticized in this country (like the word "Ninja" is). But it is really a highly outdated (uh, by about 300 years) and completely irrelevant myth.

It is about as applicable and realistic as Arthurian knighthood ideals were to the actual historical reality of the good knightly deeds such as raping, pillaging and murdering of peasantry that went on during the medieval times.

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Old August 6, 2001, 04:23 PM   #67
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Seeing that it's a "do", I would assume it's a fairly recent concept? Or, is that only applicable to martial arts styles, not philosophy?
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Old August 7, 2001, 12:13 AM   #68
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"Do" (or Dao, in Chinese) is actually an ancient word. It means "way" or "way of life."

Adding "Do" to the end of martial arts is a relatively recent phenomenon. It began with Judo when Dr. Kano Jigaro revolutionized transitional Jujutsu techniques into Kodokan Judo and began to emphasize martial arts as a way of life and a moral guide, rather than a series of techniques ("Jutsu") only.

Bushido means "the (life) way of the warrior" and was an romantic equivalent of European medieval chivalry.

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Old August 8, 2001, 04:10 PM   #69
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I took a couple of years of TKD as a kid, then a year of Okinawan Kenpo when I was stationed there. I just recently started Krav Maga, and I'm going four times a week.

KM seems to be a no-BS fighting system and the classes are a real endurance challenge. The fighting we've done has been just that, fighting, not tournament style sparring. My goal the first time I fought was just to avoid throwing up in the headgear. The instructor kept rotating in fresh opponents as I sweated and saw little white dots swirling around me. Good stuff.
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Old August 10, 2001, 12:30 AM   #70
ghillieman
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bushido

I agree that modern students do not understand bushido... the old code of ethics of the samurai, how ever the the few who still practice with the same spirit that those old samurai did are the few who keep the warrior spirit alive AND THERE ARE DAMED FEW!! That is why I do not see it in our youth today as they dont even have a zest for life.. the tv mostly.... I do not mean to seem hard on todays youth... but I see the last of us dying out .... I dont know about you guys my dojo was my home ... 7 days a week for years and years. no other thing occupied our minds... we did not do it for FUN. or to be bad asses. we did it to perfect our mind, body and spirits. the zen that was passed to me was the same as it was to the bhudda, the warrior spirit the same as it was to the ancient samurai, my shodan came with blood sweat and tears. and strict and hard sensei, in my years I have seen the maritial arts dwindle to a joke... people today do not want to give there lives to it... to many easy things in thier lives.. they miss the meaning of it all .... karate is not a sport. it is a deadly self defence (or it used to be) I feel a great sadness as i see what has become of it all... you younger guys don"t know what you missed . ghillieman (PERHAPS> the last warrior)
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Old August 10, 2001, 12:41 AM   #71
ghillieman
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to skorzeny....... you do not understand true bushido..... sorry.
to Ateam ......... you never were in a real dojo...... sorry also
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Old August 10, 2001, 12:47 AM   #72
ATeaM
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Fear not Ghillieman, all is not lost....for Bruce LeeRoy lives !!!



And no, that smile does not not mean he is having fun. Bruce Leeroy is all business. You can almost see the Chi reverbrating off of him. OK, enough of this post, this is getting too silly. I'll leave you with LeeRoy...HEEEEYAA !!
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Old August 10, 2001, 03:16 AM   #73
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ATeaM:

You are a riot! That was a great response...

Ghillieman:

Pray tell me, then, what Bushido really means and how it was actually practiced by the Samurais in medieval Japan.

Since I have post graduate training in East Asian history among other things, I would find it very interesting if you could enlighten me...

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Old August 10, 2001, 09:16 AM   #74
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Well, I know the true meaning of Bullsheeto.
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Old August 10, 2001, 01:01 PM   #75
ghillieman
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hey , Ateam. good one ......

hey skorzeny ... I would, if your cup is empty...........


to search for the old, is to understand the new. the old,the new, this is a matter of time. in all things man must have a clear mind. the way. Who will pass it on striaght and well?....... funakoshi
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