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Old May 16, 2001, 08:34 PM   #26
fadingbreed
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To whom are you speaking, Spectre?
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Old May 16, 2001, 09:21 PM   #27
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probably Matt.

hi Spectre - email me at Viceroy808@hotmail.com sometime this is the ol' dragontooth73 if you remember at all
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Old May 16, 2001, 11:46 PM   #28
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fadingbreed,

I reckon he's talking to just about anybody. I also study
Jinenkan bujutsu but so what? I study martial arts for two reasons: 1) I like them. 2) With unarmed techniques, you can't be totally disarmed. Other than that, I'll take my Kimber, thank you very much. By the same token, I'll bet on a person who has relatively little training with a sword or a knife against an expert who is totally unarmed. If a person can take an armed person who has any idea whatsoever how to handle his weapon, while unarmed, that person is a MASTER of unarmed combat. I've successfully beat the crap out of EIGHT unarmed opponents while armed with nothing but a cutoff (three foot) shovel handle. (It was dark, they were looking for me but I found them first) They weren't masters by any stretch of the imagination but quantity has a quality all its own. So do weapons.
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Old May 17, 2001, 06:37 AM   #29
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I agree.
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Old May 17, 2001, 07:52 AM   #30
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Although I've studied martial "arts" for years, I'll caution participants that there is a difference between training for a fight in a dojo and actually being in a fight. I believe that we should learn basic moves that can be carried out under stress (being attacked isn't the same as punching air or even sparring) and that are effective after some dude sucker punches you (don't see much of that in a dojo either). Reality is that fights don't happen like in the movies and you need only a few brutal moves that will leave your attacker disabled or at least stunned long enough for you to get away. Learn what will work in a dark alley, not a dojo.
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Old May 17, 2001, 08:49 AM   #31
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Blunder - That's an excellent point. So many people train technique, but forget the mental aspect (I'm guilty of this also, starting to address this). I recommend a gentleman named Tony Blauer for further research on this subject.

Rob
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Old May 17, 2001, 10:34 AM   #32
Matt Wallis
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Spartacus said, "By the same token, I'll bet on a person who has relatively little training with a sword or a knife against an expert who is totally unarmed."

I have to agree for the most part. The whole unarmed versus armed debate springs out of the old cliche' of an unarmed expert being just as deadly as someone armed. I mean, I love the old Kung Fu movies, but one guy using only his hands and feet taking on someone armed with a sword? Heh, heh. I don't think so! Anyone who has done any weapons sparring (or real combat for that matter!) knows how ridiculous that is.

I think the truth behind the myth is that being highly trained in unarmed fighting can _help_ to even the balance with someone who is armed but less skilled. But to say that one's fists can be more effective (for pure danger and damage) than a knife/club/sword/what have you is just plain silly.

Regards,
Matt
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Old May 17, 2001, 10:44 AM   #33
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While the UFC does have a certain amount of bogosity, it is (was?) a forum that produced some kind of reality check.

Notice that (in the UFC) once in a while ahighly trained little guy beats out of shape fat guy, but MOST OF THE TIME well-conditioned big guy beats well-conditioned little guy. (Martial arts movies to contrary.)
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Old May 17, 2001, 11:47 AM   #34
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We all have our own definitions of reality. I find UFC to be very unrealistic due to the fact that I can't use weapons and my friends can't help me and the terrain is limited to a ring, also the fight is at a set time I've seen little guys run over the big guys on the street but they didn't do it by standing in front of them or by playing by "rules."

This reminds me of a thread with Skorzeny on Brazilian jujitsu. I was willing to stipulate that BJJ is the best one on one unarmed fighting system there is...but that still leaves the BJJ guy with two major problems related to fighting me: 1)finding me alone and 2)finding me unarmed.


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Old May 17, 2001, 12:07 PM   #35
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Matt,

I would not even think of stating that there are not people who can take an armed opponent while unarmed. When this does happen I believe it is because of one of two rea firson, if not both-the armed opponent is totally ignorant of the use of the weapon or that the unarmed fighter has attained mastery in whatever fighting skills he uses.


I've got a friend who at 6'1" weighs three hundred pounds. He looks like a fat, beer swilling bubba-he is. He's also almost as fast as Bruce Lee which his opponents are definitely not expecting. And he's a berserker in the traditional Viking meaning. I've seen him fight four people at once after refusing my help. They fought in an alley. The first threw a jab and Dennis shifted his body and reached out and grabbed the guy by the nape of the neck. He then swept the guy through a 270 degree arc and slammed him face first into a cinderblock wall. He dragged the guy's face down the wall as he advanced to the next. He did the exact same thing to all of them but the last two weren't really trying to fight, they were trying to climb the walls of the deadend alley. He has no training and he doesn't practice what he does do. He's taken two people armed with revolvers. He's a master of unarmed fighting.
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Old May 19, 2001, 04:42 AM   #36
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I'm a BJJ fighter. I had no problem manhandling my opponent in Detac. Sent him airborne too. He was never able to get his gun out.

Everything has it's valid points. Those of you who say that the UFC is bogus are both right and wrong. The UFC is the sport of fighting in a controlled environment. It's one on one. On the flip side, if you can't fight a single opponent in a controlled environment, what makes you think you can fight 1, 2 or 3 successfully in an environment with an unknown number of variables? You gotta be good with your hands, feet and weapons.

I'm pretty confident with my gun, but I wouldn't dare have a duel with my Kendo trained roommate. He'd kill me before I ever get to my gun. Gotta be well rounded in everything.
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Old May 19, 2001, 06:54 AM   #37
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SDforce - The UFC, IMHO, rules in regard to competition here in the States. A controlled enviroment and one-on-one? Yes; however, but I think it is on of the best competition events, period. I don't believe, many of us here would fare all that well in the UFC. It can get brutal in the Octagon.
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Old May 19, 2001, 08:20 AM   #38
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What makes me think I can do well against 1, 2, 3, 4 etc. is actual experience doing so using strategy as well as fighting skills. Unarmed I've beaten two opponents on two occasions and four opponents on two occasions. Not just survived- beaten them, run them off and remained in sole possession of the field of contest. As I mentioned above, I've faced eight unarmed opponents with a three foot shovel handle and prevailed. Once again, I remained in sole possession of the terrain after the fight. The difference between this and contests such as UFC? Strategy. All you have in the UFC is tactics, strength, speed, endurance, etc. The eight guys were looking for me for the purpose of beating the crap out of me. First tool of strategy-superior intelligence. I had a spy. Next, choose your terrain and time-don't let the enemy choose the battleground or set the terms of combat. Surprise-I ambushed them in the dark...everyone I encountered in the melee was an opponent-they actually started fighting each other in the confusion. Since reaching adulthood, I've been in thirty fights. I'm 27 and 3. In the three defeats, I was injured badly in each after sustaining a sucker punch from behind...I check my six a lot nowadays. Major concussions are not fun.

I've beaten a real Tueller drill from a four foot distance. My opponent suddenly grabbed a sledge hammer handle concealed on top of a tool box and aimed a blow at the top of my head. I got off the line of attack and was drawing my P35 before he could raise the hammer handle fully above his head and he was not moving slowly. As I had taken a large step to my right oblique rear, I was out of his range. When he realized that he was about a half second from being shot, he released the handle. The discussion between us had been totally amicable until he suddenly attacked.

That being said, let me make no bones about the fact that probably all UFC fighters could stomp my butt in record time in the Octagon...if I was fool enough to get in. Strategy mandates that you shield your weaknesses, avoid your opponent's strengths, choose the field of battle and the time, and strike with total surprise and overwhelming force.
The rules of the Octagon deny you the ability to do that. A superior strategist will win against a stronger, faster, and more technically adept opponent. He will win if outnumbered. He won't win by engaging in a duel.
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Old May 20, 2001, 09:55 AM   #39
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That's my pal.
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Old May 20, 2001, 06:53 PM   #40
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Controlled Environments vs. Reality

Spartacus-

My first post here. A good thread to contribute to.

I think that your judgements about "reality fighting" are a bit harsh. Most serious martial artists understand that the "UFC" as you will, is intended to be an enclosed environment, containing basic rules of sportmanship.

The UFC fighters, especially as of late, may do extremly well against single attackers on the street, because of rock solid technique, but I believe their weakness lies in training singularly around defeating single opponents in an arena that is still based on "rules". Basically, no unintended, unknown variables.

Strategy on this (UFC/etc) level of individual combat is limited to techniques that will not immediately kill or main your opponent, and are executed with an amount of control that allow the opponent to submit if need be.

These rules of sportman ship are not offered in real life or death situations.

No eye gouging, no groin strikes, no fish hooking, no kicks while on the ground, imposed time limits, no multiple attackers, no weapons, no fellows wearing boots trying to kick your ribs in while 2 other guys hold you.

I don't see the absense of these variables taking away from the combat skills of the participants. The individual combat skills are an important aspect to any fighter, and when you add in the "reality" of fighting, which includes groin shots, using your environment as a weapon, etc, I think that most of them would make rather good partners to have in time of trouble.

I think that the main problem that most martial artists have, is not training for reality often enough. They get constipated within forms, and the "nice" part of the art, and don't practice enough groin kicks, throat strikes, and eye gouges. If you don't practice these everyday, you won't execute them when it counts. You'll throw a strike, a kick, or shoot for a takedown, and the brawler will kick you in the nuts, chop you in the throat, or kick your knee out.

Personally, when showing my wife targets, and ways to hit them, the 3 main targets I show her, are 1: groin 2: eyes 3: throat

I'm a firm believer that the superior strategist wins no matter what the environment. This has been seen in the earlier UFC by the gracies. Given the set rules, Brazillian Jiu Jitsu contained superior strategy then the other martial artists that entered the contest. If they had been better prepared, they would have realized that their styles were none-effective on the ground. Where Royce Gracies was able to capitalize upon their weakness.

GUNS:

Most of the guys that I work out with are pro-gun. Some hunt, some are Law Enforcement, some are corrections officers, some are just regular joes like you and I. There are some that like guns that don't like hunting, and there are some that just don't like guns.

It is my personal opinion that in order to call yourself a martial artist, weapong familiarity is a must. These guys that get into the "arts" and then say that weapons take the purity out of it, are living in a fantasy world, and have not done to much reading of the history around martial art and culture.

I think that if you are going to familiarize yourself with weapons, you should be familiar with as many different weapons available. Some martial artists say that a gun is just "to easy", and that "anyone can shoot someone".

They fail to see that there is an "art" to shooting. My father spent half is lifetime learning the art of shooting, and today, he is an inspiration to me, and I aspire to his skill level. His casual, offhand, hand in the pocket stance, always blows my mind. (He is almost 70)

This "art" is just delicate as the art within sword drawing, or the arts of bare handed combat. Just as an unskilled person with a sword can take 20 hacks at a small tree with a katana of quality, the skilled iaido-man will complete the cut as he draws his weapon. In one smooth action. Truly an art if I ever saw one. It is easy to see the parallel between the skilled marksman and the expert swordsman.

Breath control, relaxation, firm steady grip. These are synonomous in both disciplines.

I urge any of you reading this, to talk to your fellow martial artists that "don't like" guns. Express to them the discipline of it, the art, the skill. Shooting contains all the fundamentals of all of the other arts of japan and china combined. Maybe then they will realize that it is not the art of shooting that they don't like, but the "Feelings" that guns give them, based upon an impression they have recieved by the media.

I've said much, I'll retire now. Hope you all enjoyed my first post and all, hope I didn't offend anyone.

Kindest Regards,

Dave in Oregon

PS- i'm a student of gung-fu, brazillian jiu jitsu, and judo. (7 yrs)

PPS- for semi-full-contact stick fighting fun try - http://www.dogbrothers.com/

These guys are nuts.
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Old May 21, 2001, 07:58 AM   #41
Byron Quick
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Dave,

I don't think we are too far apart in our views and I DON'T take anything away from the UFC guys. Many of them are awesome in their conditioning, technique, and dedication to training. But I believe their training can handicap them in a real fight though not as badly as the training regimens of some other martial styles.

I've seen a man who had a medical history of five spinal cord tumors, fractured lumbar vertabrae,and a brain tumor, who at 120 lbs. was 60 lbs below his normal weight- totally dominate and beat the hell out of a 250 lb man in ten seconds. This man could not walk without holding on to something with both hands. He looked like he had recently been released from Auschwitz and had just that day gotten up from six months in the bed after a brutal spinal cord surgery. Strategy did it. It doesn't matter how strong you are if you can't breathe and your carotids are constricted to the point that no blood gets to your brain. This man simply reached out with his left hand and slid the middle two fingers behind the knot of his opponent's tie and gripped the knot with his entire hand and twisted it. He then pulled his opponent over the counter top separating them (incidentally hold himself up by the guy's throat and maintaining his balance) and proceeded to hammer the opponent in the face with his right fist.

This man (my father) knew strategy well but had something even more important-the heart of a warrior. He once said something to me that I would not believe from any other person I have ever known. After decades of constant pain that wouldn't allow him to sleep well even with constant use of narcotics he said to me one night,"Byron, I'd give up if I could...I've tried to give up... but I don't know how to give up." And he continued his fight for another 15 years.

Technique is good. Conditioning is good. Strength is good.
Speed is good. And all else being equal, they are winners.

These qualities have only one drawback: they inevitably degrade with advancing age.

Strategy does not degrade with advancing age...neither does spririt. I'll spend my time studying strategy and working on my spirit.
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Old May 21, 2001, 09:45 AM   #42
Matt Wallis
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Uh, hey Spartacus!

Don't take this the wrong way, but where the heck are you livin' and what do you do that you have seen and participated in so many brutal fights?! Holy cats, man! Are you a prison guard or something? Heh, heh.

Seriously though, it does seem like you've seen a lot of action. Care to let us in on your situation?

Regards,
Matt
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Old May 21, 2001, 01:31 PM   #43
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Spartacus has lived an um, interesting life, at times. Among other things, he repo'ed a lot of furniture in his younger days. Also stood up to a literal crowd of racists with a friend, a lot of attitude, a closed checkpoint (cars across road)...and twin HK 91's. (The crowd decided they really, really would prefer to just backtrack to the club and continue drinking.)
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Old May 21, 2001, 04:26 PM   #44
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While I have a lot of respect for the UCF, I think
they are following the famliliar pattern of getting further
refined away from their roots.

Still, they are the best game in town, with better ta-ta's than Spanish television.

In the beginning, they laid down a clear challenge. Come out from the shadows of a lot of mystical mumbo-jumbo and prove it in the open arena. That fundamentally changed my thinking.

Still,Ken Shamrock going WWF was like Bob Dylan going electric.
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Old May 21, 2001, 08:35 PM   #45
Byron Quick
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Matt,

I spent fifteen years repossessing and collecting for a furniture store. Most of our delinquent customers were in places like Sunset Homes and Telfair Manor in Augusta, Georgia. For some reason, some people get upset when you begin emptying their homes of the furnishings and appliances.

The fight I described that my father participated in occurred in our furniture store


There are also a lot of true Southern rednecks around here, who dearly love a good fight. Often they don't give you a choice about participation. Things have calmed down though in the last 13 years or so. Maybe I'm just getting old.
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Old May 21, 2001, 08:55 PM   #46
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Matt,

Mentioning Telfair Manor brought another incident to mind. I had a customer who skipped out on me owing over two thousands dollars. I finally tracked him to an apartment in Telfair Manor. It wasn't until I walked in that I realized my customer had found a new career...he was running a crack house. My customer paid me in crisp one hundred dollar bills while all of his customers watched the transaction and damn near drooled. Then he smirked and said,"Let's see if you can get out of here with it." It was a FN Hipower moment. No shots were fired but the pucker factor was immense as I moved to the front door without taking my back from the wall.
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Old May 21, 2001, 09:07 PM   #47
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Spartacus,

I think you said in one sentance, what I spent so many paragraphs to say.

Good strategy is like fine wine, it is refined by years. Strategy that relies upong strength, speed, or endurance, will dwindle with years.

Good advice, good thoughts.

I do disagree on one point. You added "techniques" to that list. I would venture to say that part of strategy is understanding "technique", so far as you understand the "strategy" of the human body. Balance and anatomical understanding can increase with age. Your father demonstrated his understanding of balance by using his opponent for a balance point. <laugh> That was a good story by the way. Anyways, thoughts on this?

Kind Regards,

Dave
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Old May 23, 2001, 04:02 PM   #48
Byron Quick
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Dave,

By technique, I meant the particular techniques as taught in the various styles. Our performance of these will invariably degrade as we age.


The point I am trying to make is about mindset. The mindset that our particular style and method of practice teaches us and how dangerous that mindset can be.

Two examples are karate and Brazilian jujutsu. Karate guys usually don't practice ground or grappling techniques. Their superior punching and kicking will prevent them ever going to the ground. On the other hand, the BJJ guys will never get hit or kicked and will invariably be able to take their opponent to the ground and gain the mount. I'm not knocking either style. There are practitioners of each that I don't want to face (but then I don't want to face anyone).


I believe that no matter what your method is...that you are crippling yourself if you don't study strategy...or if you confuse strategy and tactics.
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Old May 25, 2001, 08:14 PM   #49
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Strategy

I agree. You need a strategy. Though it is a very important ingredient in the formula for success, strategy alone will not save you.

Success = Plan + Means to Carry Out Plan + Ability to Carry Out Plan

You're SOL if you're missing any part of that formula.

BTW, you have a lot of interesting war stories Spartacus. I'd be interested in hearing more of them if you're willing to share


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Old May 26, 2001, 09:08 AM   #50
Byron Quick
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SDForce,

I'll tell you of two of the incidents that led me to decide to change careers-for if I stayed in a business that included collections and repossessions, I was going to either get killed or go to prison. There were several other incidents similar to these in the last eighteen months or so that I worked in repossessions.

I was sitting at a redlight with a car in front of me. A car going the other way stopped beside me and the passenger leaned across the driver and screamed at me out the window,"You m*********, you garnished my wages, you just wait, I'm gonna f*** you up!" I looked at him and replied,"Why wait?" and drew my pistol but did not present it to their view. My former customer began scrabbling under his seat, I assume reaching for a handgun. Well, the driver was sitting there and you could see the wheels turning as he constructed a diagram of trajectories in his mind. Suddenly, it clicked, yep, he was about to be in the middle of a six foot gunfight between two maniacs. He floored the gas pedal and laid down a long streak of rubber getting out of there.

I was backing down a hallway carrying a sofa I was repossessing when the drunk son of my customer looked at me over the shoulder of my employee at the opposite end of the sofa. "I oughta get my gun,"he slurred, I immediately dropped my end of the sofa and told him to go get it. His mother was hopping from foot to foot, saying,"Don't tell him that, he'll do it, he'll do it." I said,"Mrs. Carter, I want him to do it, the undertaker will wipe his butt before the sun comes up." Woodrow Carter suddenly lost all interest in getting his gun. He could see himself on that slab with the undertaker working.

As you can see, the continued stress of being in these types of situations was affecting my judgement drastically. I didn't carry for several years after this. Needed to regain my balance.
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