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Old May 6, 2001, 08:58 PM   #1
variantis
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Just out of curiosity ... who amongst us practitioners of the art of rifle / handgun / shotgun is also a martial artist in the more conventional sense (ie. hand-to-hand) ?

What's your art? Does it integrate well with firearms? Do you teach? Does your teaching include firearms usage (not just defense)?
Do you think the ratio of hoplophobes is lower among MA's than in the general population?


V. (?)


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Old May 6, 2001, 09:08 PM   #2
madmike
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Just as many hoplophobes, and many convinced of their own superiority.
Shaolin kung fu works well with any weapon.
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Old May 6, 2001, 09:41 PM   #3
falconer
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I study the Chinese Martial Arts. I've found that quite a few of the people I train with are fellow gun nuts, my sifu included. In fact, a couple years ago we bought our teacher a .22 target pistol and a year range membership for his Christmas gift.
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Old May 7, 2001, 06:04 AM   #4
Double Eagle
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Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu

Plenty of improvised weapons are used, and we occasionally do specifically gun-related techniques. A lot of the weapon retention drills translate into skills useful if you are wearing a sidearm.

Our dojo is european, so we don't have as much access to firearms as you guys (and a lot of students here wouldn't have the inclination).

An american bujinkan dojo that does love it's firearms would be at http://www.artofcombat.com
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Old May 7, 2001, 09:56 AM   #5
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I am a brown belt in American Karate. While we don't have firearm training incorporated in our art (other than a few empty hand defenses against guns), I think that it meshes pretty well. I get to assist in class, and hope to have my own class once I get my black belt.

Many of my fellow classmates, including my instructor, enjoy firearms. However, I think that there are almost just as many people who don't like firearms as you would find in any group of people. Just my $.02.

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Old May 7, 2001, 11:54 AM   #6
Danger Dave
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TKD/Hapkido...

My instructor was a police firearms instructor (retired), one of our black belts was on the US Customs Service pistol team, and one of our green belts used to be a successful IPSC competitor (currently owns an ammo manufacturing company).

While our class doesn't teach firearms per se, we have had some unofficial gatherings at the range.
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Old May 7, 2001, 04:02 PM   #7
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Been involved in martial arts since I was 10. Black belt in Hapkido, Green belt in Shotokan, with a smattering of Judo and Tai Chi thrown in.

Any martial art encompasses more than just hand to hand. The philosophy is sound for all things in life.

I was only taught weapons when my sensei was confident that I had attained a certain level of mastery in the hand to hand arts. I was never formally taught firearms combat but have trained in bo, jo, nunchaku, cane, tonfa, knife, and other foreign objects.

I have only ever had 2 students of my own and I was very careful on who I taught. In what I do, there is no such thing as a trophy, fighting for points or in tournaments. You are learning a life philosophy and a means to defend yourself if need be.

Honestly, I have just recently been turned to the wonderful world of handguns(about 1.5 years)
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Old May 7, 2001, 05:01 PM   #8
Spectre
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I study Jinenkan bujutsu. Hojutsu (firearms) are a traditional category, though it is a category we as a student are expected to pursue on our own. Unfortunately, there are (as others have said) hoplophobes in the "x-kans" just as anywhere else. These are typically people who refuse to acknowledge the reality that no qualitative difference exists between firearms and other weapons. All can be used to kill- firearms just take less time to learn and master. All of the teachers and students of the x-kans that I respect believe in having at least a working knowledge of firearms. My previous teacher (Bud Malstrom) was a former Marine, a certified executive protection specialist, and a police reserve officer. We often did "Spyderco checks" in class!
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Old May 9, 2001, 02:50 PM   #9
hollow point
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Taekwondo/Hapkido

Firearm techniques aren't taught in the dojang, but I teach PPC course with one of the members and we have been known to practice some combined stuff on our own. I have found that many of the throws in hapkido are great to buy time for a clean draw. - JHP
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Old May 10, 2001, 09:46 AM   #10
Matt Wallis
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I'm a TKD man, though I've dabbled in a few other things in the past (some Hapkido, Sun Moo Do, Judo). Past couple of years I've also been getting into Historical European Martial Arts. Been studying medieval longsword technique as well as dabbling in some medieval grappling.

Nothing I've ever studied has incorporated (or even really mentioned) firearms. It's pretty much been a seperate thing altogether. Though I will say that my interest in MA did help encourage my interest in guns.

Regards,
Matt

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Old May 10, 2001, 03:32 PM   #11
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Don't want to start a flame war here, but I think that we are tip-toeing around the obvious fact that for years many martial arts instructors have had a head-in-sand attitude towards guns.

I have a lot of respect for Bruce Lee, bt I really groaned at his movie line, "guns are obscene".


I really wanted to yell, "So what, Brue, what's your point?"
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Old May 10, 2001, 03:40 PM   #12
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If Miyamoto Musashi was alive today, he'd be humping an HK MP-5 mit grenade launcher, night-vision, and thermal imaging, and looking into getting a suitcase nuke.

He was very much a "do what works" kind of guy.
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Old May 10, 2001, 04:16 PM   #13
kruger
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11 years aikido (nidan)
6 years iaido (nidan... training in japan helps)
1 year judo (6th kyu)

Amongst the aiki-fruits there are plenty of gun control types, while the more pragmatic aikidoka are gun neutral. The local iai types are gun neutral, but the japanese swordsmen couldn't understand my liking for firearms. The local judoka are pretty neutral.
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Old May 11, 2001, 02:12 AM   #14
Mort
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Modern Arnis. A Filipino art, and we know how the Pilipino likes his pistols...yes. Also, the particular people I train with are extremely oriented towards practicality, and as such they carry.
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Old May 11, 2001, 04:48 AM   #15
Double Eagle
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...

A high-ranking Shihan in our organisation was talking about firearms and their relation to martial arts at a seminar a few months ago.

He commented that Takamatsu sensei, the previous soke of the traditions making up the Bujinkan, had said this to his successor many years ago:-

"The Japanese are very stupid- always thinking about the sword! When I was in China, I used a pistol. With a handgun you can kill many people efficiently."
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Old May 12, 2001, 09:10 AM   #16
Spectre
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Yup. And the known instance when several sword-wielders went up against this master (unarmed at the time), they died. They might've had better luck with firearms. (Then again...)



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Old May 13, 2001, 02:09 PM   #17
Viceroy808
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ahem

I just went through some practice with LASur5er on the use(lessness) of short and long arms in very close distances lol ... and I'm VERY fond of bayonet fighting drills. Spectre, you can imagine what that must have been like

(Speaking of which I've left Fort Benning, but should return to the Georgia area for schools ... will let you know when I'll be in Atlanta again, sorry about not writing sooner)

On a personal note, I think "tobidogu" aka "flying tools" in Japanese aka firearms, integrate well with the arts. Huge aversion to throwing knives and shuriken way back when in the old days as "not fair" ... hence an unwillingness to integrate them further into the arts. Nix the cult of the sword. Firearms work and I like 'em.

- from the ol' dragontooth73
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Old May 15, 2001, 08:55 AM   #18
Mntneer357
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3 years Tae-Kwon-Do
2 years Aikido
2 years Jiu-jitsu (currently studying)

We train for every possible situation. We are taught that you need to be able to defend yourself standing, sitting, lying down, etc. Weapons such as staff and knife are very popular. We also do a lot of weapon disarms and (in higher levels) firearm disarms and retention techniques.

Most of the people I train with are "gun-nuts", my teacher included. It probably helps that we have several LEO's in our class in the higher ranks. Our dojo has a very pro-gun attitude.
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Old May 15, 2001, 09:03 AM   #19
RazorsEdge
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I am somewhat uncomfortable with the term "gun-nut".

I like to think of myself as a "projectile artiste."
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Old May 15, 2001, 10:10 AM   #20
cuulad
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MA and firearms

I take Shinto Yoshin Ryu JiuJitsu and though there isn't a style sponsered emphasis on guns, my teacher insists on learning EVERYTHING that will keep one alive in extereme situations.

We do a lot of weapon retention and cross train w/ a Kuntao/Arnis master in knives and firearms retention.

Recently my instructor has been working w/ our Kuntao/Arnis friend in creating a training program for police and SWAT

my school: http://www.sfama.com (still under some construction)

our Kuntao/Arnis friend: http://www.tacsafe.com

The attitdue taken in my dojo is that we are training as warriors...not for fitness, not for spiritual awakening, but as warriors follwing Budo as a code (which does encompass mental, physical, as well as spiritual training in order to make for a more well rounded and stable warrior).

Hope that helps and is of some interest.
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Old May 15, 2001, 06:59 PM   #21
ronin308
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I've done TKD since I was 8. I have had some Wing Chun Kung Fu private lessons. Recently though I've studied Aikido and Iaido. I've found that the mindset and the control that we martial artists have with our bodies integrates well with any sort of discipline whether its stock market trading or firearms training. I've found that some MAs are "gun-only" hoplophobes, meaning that they love and embrace all weapons EXCEPT firearms...which is a curious thing indeed!

Dan
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Old May 16, 2001, 12:26 AM   #22
LiquidTension
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Studied karate when I was 11-12, aikido for a year, and danzan ryu jujitsu for a while. Unfortunately I seem to have lost my motivation so now I practice sit-on-ass fu. We did a few gun defense techniques in jujitsu but otherwise guns weren't really discussed. My sensei was ex-military, as well as his teacher and many of the higher belts. Many highway patrol officers also take from him. I can't really say if any of my limited training has helped me with firearm handling or not. Situational awareness yes, firearm technique...?
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Old May 16, 2001, 07:32 AM   #23
Matt Wallis
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I agree that it is not hard to find an anti-gun bias in the martial arts world. In fact, I often find it applied to _any weapon_ at all!

I remember this one time I was at a wedding (a friend of the wife). I met this guy there that studied TKD and Hapkido. Naturally we got to talking. When I explained that I also studied medieval swordsmanship as a martial art he replied, "Oh, well that's not really a martial art" (and he emphasized "art"). Well at first I thought this was going to turn out to be a perpetuation of the old myths that medieval swords weighed 20 pounds and were weilded only with brute strength and no skill. However, as I talked to to him he gradually revealed that he didn't think any combat that relied on a weapon was a "true" martial art! I couldn't believe it.

Now maybe most people arn't that extreme, but there are martial artists like that out there. I shudder to think what that guy would say about guns!

Regards,
Matt
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Old May 16, 2001, 05:24 PM   #24
fadingbreed
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U.S. Army Retired
Okinawan Kempo Karate - 1st Dan
Judo - Studied two years
American Karate - Studied three years
Boxing - Two years
Kickboxing - Four years
Jr High & High School Wrestling

and many scars from the real thing.
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Old May 16, 2001, 07:47 PM   #25
Spectre
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Interesting...since "martial" means "warlike"! (Try taking your bare fists out onto the battlefield!)
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