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Old June 23, 2000, 11:12 PM   #1
Correia
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These are all relatively new, they all work in standard sized guns. Which one do you think is the best and why? Don't know what I would do with one, but I'm just curious what you more knowledgable types think.

I can't see all 4 sticking around when they all basically have the same mission, who will survive?
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Old June 24, 2000, 12:53 AM   #2
Robert the41MagFan
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With the exception of Magnum Research's Jam-O-Matic (sorry, had to say that one time ), there is a power gap between automatics and wheel guns. These cartridges are making a attempt to close that gap and they have come relatively close. Problem is that these cartridge are limited to existing platforms (guns). They have to use existing guns that do not have the real strength necessary to handle true magnum power.

Another problem that these cartridges have is in gaining traction. With the exception of .357Sig, which has enjoyed some limited success (remember 10mm!), none seem to be able to capture market share. They are hot till the next gun rag issue. Problem being that there is no real niche for them. What are these cartridges going to do? What are they for?

There power is far superior to the standard issue 9mm, 357sig, 40s&w and 45acp, making over penetration a major issue for law enforcement and self defense users. There power is only good enough for small to medium size game, a market dominated by a host of revolvers with greater and higher power bands.

At the end of the day, it is most likely that none of these cartridges will survive. If anything, maybe 10mm (long shot). Which is the ballistics that all these cartridges duplicate, with some minor hairsplitting. And the 10mm has a foot in the door, most sporting good stores carry the ammunition and at a fraction of the cost of these exotics.

Ten Lives!

Robert
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Old June 24, 2000, 02:16 AM   #3
Judas D'Winter
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What was the purpose behind the 40 super anyway? I thought the whole reason for the .40 was the 10mm was too powerfull and the flash was too great. Doesn't the .40 super just make a 10mm again?

JD
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Old June 24, 2000, 01:11 PM   #4
KilgorII
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Out of the one's you listed if I were in the market for a high powered autoloader I wouldn't pick any of them. I'd choose a Glock model 20 10mm w/ 15 round high caps. The 10 is easier to find in stores, brass is easier to get, and it's easier to reload than a bottleneck case.
 
Old June 24, 2000, 02:51 PM   #5
Correia
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Judas, to my understanding the whole 10mm being too hot thing was because a lot of the FBI agents and cops being issued the gun couldn't handle the kick and muzzle blast, so the FBI downloaded the 10mm to 180gr. bullet at under 1000fps. S$W found that they could cut the case down, get the same ballistics and fit the new cartridge into a 9mm size gun instead of a .45 size gun. So thats where the .40 comes from.

My personal opinion is that I like the .40 super. 135gr. at 1800 fps! Or 200gr at 1300 fps! I don't own a .44 mag, but I've always kind of wanted a powerful pistol just for the hell of it, and this way all I would have to do is convert an existing .45 over with a new barrel and heavier springs. And to my knowledge this is quite a bit hotter than most 10mm rounds.

Heck you could convert a G21 or Para and have a high cap master blaster.
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Old June 24, 2000, 06:07 PM   #6
WESHOOT2
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45 Super may have some value; others are just hobby cartridges.

If you want power look for 41 Mag and up; I've stopped at the 45LC (but I like my 41 Redhawk, too).

If it needs more than that I've woken up in Africa.....

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Old June 24, 2000, 11:43 PM   #7
WalterGAII
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"Their", not "there"

I shoot thousands of .400 Cor-Bons through my G21, G30 and G.C. Also fooled around with the .40 Super. They are, indeed, just hobby rounds for me. (But then, so are my other calibers.)

So far, I haven't had to use any of my rounds for anything but hobbying. How about the rest of you?? Any professional shootists out there????
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Old June 25, 2000, 07:09 AM   #8
RustyRP
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[perhaps I would have asked two different questions 1) "10mm vs 40 super vs. 400 corbon" and 2) "10mm vs 45 super vs. 460 rowland".... at any rate - that is how I am responding]

1) "10mm vs 40 super vs. 400 corbon"

correa - are you sure on those speeds for the 40 super? [just wanted to be sure]

comments about the "smarts" involved with such ventures aside, some 10 nuts are using IMR 800x to get those vel's out of their NUCLEAR reloads..... those definitely would be high (super) pressures on the 1911 frame [regardless of whether it is a 10mm, 400CB, or 40 super].....

In support of the 10 [a G20 or 29 is next on my aquisition list] ,IMO it is more popular than the 40 super & 400 corbon combined, you can get hicap 15 round G20 mags, and you can shoot 40 SW loads in an unmodified G20 (the extractor will headspace the ctg) despite somebodys tests with a SW 10mm.... The Glock is designed as a "controlled round feed" of sorts - the cartridge cannot get into the chamber unless it is engaged by the extractor. In fact, you can damage the Glock extractor by dropping a loaded round in the chamber & dropping the slide.

2) "10mm vs 45 super vs. 460 rowland"

this is where it gets tough for me..... I like the 45 super / 45 acp combo (change out recoil spring?). Ive heard that you can fire 45 acp ammo in the rowland chamber (like the G20/40SW deal above - headspacing on the extractor). The suitability of the Glock 21/30 to firing the super/rowland is questionable.... that barrel is terribly thin IMO. If I was a 1911 or HK fan (both are suitable - right?) I might be more inclined to jump on the bandwagon.

[Finally - a curve ball]
Revolvers? first SW endorses 45 supers in the 625, now they dont..... I wonder if the problem is limited to a small % of the guns from one generation or the other (they have short & long bolt stop notch cylinders, as well as possible different metalurgy from 1988 to present)

My 625 is the long notch version...... Im never going to fire any supers in it.... +P's yes, supers no. If I need more power in a revolver Ill just get a 44 mag.

picture courtesy of Monty



Other revolvers? DanWesson makes a nice looking $900 revo chmbered for the 460 rowland/45 win mag..... I WANT ONE BAD (but cant afford it )



http://www.dan-wesson.com/

Rusty

[This message has been edited by RustyRP (edited June 26, 2000).]
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Old June 25, 2000, 07:23 AM   #9
WESHOOT2
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WalterGAII,

No disrespect intended (and your ARE the 400 guru) but my point was more that these cartridges will not normally be found on gunshop shelves, and their use may be severly limited by suitable bullet selection or the cartridges' weight range (like the 400 CB and 220g bullets).

I mentioned the 45 Super because it is based on a very common launch platform that is easily modified to handle it.

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Old June 25, 2000, 12:12 PM   #10
Correia
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I checked my figures, got them off of the Triton catalog:

40 Super Hi-Vel
Muzzle 25 yards 50 yards

135gr. 1800, 1639, 1492
165gr. 1500, 1390, 1291
200gr. 1300, 1242, 1190

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Old June 25, 2000, 02:41 PM   #11
WalterGAII
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WEShoot:

Absolutely no offense taken. I was just agreeing that my purpose for fooling around with the bottlenecks is that they are a novelty. When I'm carrying, I go back to .45 ACP.

I think that one of the main problems with .45Super is that it has the same dimensions as .45ACP. There are lots of guns out there that shouldn't fire .45 Super. With the bottlenecks, you have to use a proprietory barrel.
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Old June 26, 2000, 02:02 AM   #12
Robert the41MagFan
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It strikes me as strange when Triton advertises their 135gr ammunition at 1800FPS. Their own ballistics data really shows 1700 FPS, their loading data only shows 1650 FPS maximum. That is actually less than handloads for a 10mm. Same goes for their 200 gr ammunition, starts at 1300 FPS and shrinks to 1250 FPS. Again, same ballistical equal to a 10mm. They also claim reduced pressures, but no numbers to compare.

Robert
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Old June 26, 2000, 12:27 PM   #13
WalterGAII
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Robert:

Their load data is for cannister powders available to the public, not the powders that they actually use in production. I've chrony'd the 135gr. at 1800+, out of my G21.
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Old June 26, 2000, 11:07 PM   #14
labgrade
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My understanding re the 460 (in the pistol, not revolver) is that is must be used with a compensator attached which delays the impulse curve. It's a high-pressure round & the comp solves the problem.

If you reload, what's the worry with availability & price off the shelf?

& too, if you can take it with a 41/44 mag, the 460 will do it as well in a bit flatter & more compact platform - with an extra 4 or 5 rounds ready too boot.

& it'll shoot 3X calibers without switching mags or bbls. Sounds pretty versitile although a bit long (re comp) for CCW. Switch the frame over to the Mag-Tech upper & you have a carbine ....

Maybe it's a hobby round but I still want one.

& besides, just because some mfg'r won't recommend one doesn't mean that politics are in the offing ...
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Old June 28, 2000, 05:12 PM   #15
Futo Inu
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Walter is the resident expert on these. I find them interesting, and here are my limited tidbits of knowledge:

1. Most to least powerful: .460R, .40Sup, .45 Sup, .400CB

2. The .400CB duplicates the 10mm auto in ballistics, more or less.

3. For reloaders, the .45sup is cool, cuz you can use .45 acp dies, just the beefed-up brass. But for the necked cartridges (.400 CB and .40sup), lubing the cases is required to keep them from sticking in the resizing die, as I understand it. Not sure about that though with carbide dies.

4. All four are supposed to be convertible from a strong .45acp pistol with various components swaps, but all should use the same .45acp mags.

5. For some reason, the .400CB, unlike the .357sig, does not feed reliably from double-stack mags, due to nose-dives. Same for .40Super as I understand it.

6. .40super is supposed to push 135 gr at 1700 fps - wow! And don't tell me the 10mm or .400 CB do this - if it does, it's probably not safe and certainly not from factory ammo. If you don't reload, at least you can buy Triton .40 super ammo, right?

7. The necked cartridges have the advantage, it's said, of more efficient powder burning, due to a tighter crimp that can be put on the cartridge.

8. A comped or ported bbl is just almost a pre-requisite for the Rowland and .40 Super.

9. The .45 super is still only a moderate pressure cartridge, and can be shot in strong .45 acp guns that have a fully supported stock or aftermarket barrel, but preferably use only a bbl specifically marked for .45 super, so that you can hold the maker responsible for your injuries if it does blow up with factory spec .45 super ammo. Same can be said for any cartridge that exists.

10. The .400 CB is offered in quite a few from-the-factory pistols now - probably 8-10 pistols makers offer theirs in .400CB, at least on paper in catalogs. Probably 2 or 3 offer pistols in .45 Super, notably the reasonably-priced Springfield V16 ported long slide, plus Robar offers a conversion package for about any 1911. I personally plan on getting the Springfield V16. I've seen it tested to work reliably with super and acp loads and good accuracy. And I figure I can ream the bbl to convert it to .460 Rowland any time I feel like, or just get an extra barrel in .460 Rowland. Of course then one might ask "why not just buy a .45 win mag which is probably already on your gun store shelf?" I guess the answer is the win mag platforms offered to date are all still larger than the 1911, no? (such as the AMT, Wildey, etc.)

11. Regarding niches, yes I too doubt all four will stick around, but there are actually 2 different missions that I see, with the 400CB and .40 Triton Sup competing for one niche, super vel from an autoloading, relatively compact pistol, and the .460 and .45Sup competing for the other niche, fast and heavy for knocking down bowling pins and what-not.

12. The .460 is in theory safer than the super, because the .460 cartridge won't go into batter in a standard acp gun, due to longer case, in the event one carelessly tries to do that, whereas the .45 super will chamber in an acp gun, so the possibility is there for a kb, esp. with an unsupported chamber mouth.

BTW, IFF the '94 full capacity ban sunsets in '04 as it's supposed to, then I predict a BIG-TIME shakeup in the popularity of various calibers. The .357 sig and the other necked cartridges will take a big hit in popularity, as the market will want full capacity 9x19, 9x21, .40s&w, or 10mm (not nearly the justification for the .357 sig or .400 corbon in that event, because you can have higher capacities - more than 10 - with smaller cases - in still a very small package. The .40 super, Rowland, and .45 super should not be greatly affected one way or the other though.

[This message has been edited by Futo Inu (edited June 29, 2000).]
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