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Old April 28, 2001, 01:48 PM   #1
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Many people at Glock Talk say that the 10mm is underpowered for even Black Bear (which are not that big in general). I have read other reports that claim the 10mm wastes a lot of energy when people are shot with it (a lot of energy exits the victim they say). Then you have the M&S website that lists actual street results (yes, I know this is a very controversial theory). The 10mm didn't fare well there either! So.....not trying to start a caliber war, BUT I am curious: If the 10mm is not good on black bear, and apparently less effective on people than .40/.45/.357, then what is the advantage of having a 10mm?

http://www.evanmarshall.com/towert/s...werfigures.htm

The following is a cut and paste quote from the M&S website. According to their very controversial figures, the 10mm has been less effective than most other (major) defensive calibers (.357/.40/.45) on people!


Quote:
"Dale Towert's Stopping Power Page
Marshall & Sanow's Street Effectiveness Figures for the 10mm Medium Velocity Cartridge

Manufacturer Brand Type Grains fps fpe Shootings Successes

Winchester N/A JHP 180 1055 445 44 82%
Federal N/A JHP 180 980 384 27 81%
Remington N/A JHP 180 1055 445 31 81%

Winchester Black Talon JHP 200 990 436 87%
Federal Hydra-Shok JHP 180 1030 424 87%
Eldorado Starfire JHP 180 950 361 84% "

Marshall & Sanow's Street Effectiveness Figures for the 10mm Cartridge

Manufacturer Brand Type Grains fps fpe Shootings Successes

Cor-Bon N/A JHP 150 1300 563 10 90%

Glaser Blue JPF 105 1650 635 92%
Winchester Silvertip JHP 175 1290 647 92%
Master N/A JHP 150 1334 593 91%
Triton N/A JHP 135 1400 588 91%
Magsafe Defender JPF 96 1780 676 91%
Remington N/A JHP 170 1262 602 88%
Norma N/A FMJ 200 1181 620 69%

[Edited by GunreviewWebmaster on 04-28-2001 at 06:01 PM]
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Old April 28, 2001, 02:11 PM   #2
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.

[Edited by Blue Duck357 on 04-28-2001 at 03:50 PM]
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Old April 28, 2001, 02:14 PM   #3
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I think there might be several factors as to why the 10MM is not what it should or could be.

First, it's not a popular catridge so it's not worth the money for the factories to research and develop "perfect" loads for it. Easier and less expensive to just use a 40 cal. bullet designed for the 40SW (which will expand too quickly) and not profitable enough to redesign the original 10mm rounds which seem to be a bit too tough to expand on humans. Not enough hunters with 10mm to make it worth the research to come up with a really good Deer/Black Bear load. As for MS stopping power I think it's the bullets as mentioned, and the fact that not many LEO's use them. I'm starting a new post on my theory on this "Are LEo shootings distorting M/S data" on the General Handgun Forum.

Second, The damn FBI (lite load). Most companies still way underload the 10mm compared to it's potential, because thats what the FBI wanted, so I suppose they think it's what 10mm shooters want today. The fact is the FBI's gone to the 40 SW and so have all the other shooters who wanted the 10mm lite, yet the facories still push the stuff and when people chrono thier load they think the 10mm is underated.

Third, In regard to hunting popularity I think it's psychological. People think of revolvers as more powerfull and rugged as a hunting tool. A man in the woods with Blued SW 41 magnum seems to fit in, a man in the woods with a 3 day beard in a tree stand with a Glock seems...out of place.

JMHO, Blue Duck
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Old April 28, 2001, 02:51 PM   #4
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Definitive 10mm review

10mm is a great caliber because it matches 357 Mag balistics in a compact 1911 package with more ammo and quicker reloads. You can throw light 135 grainers fast or big 200 grain bullets slow - but still past 45ACP levels. It is diverse in what you can do with it.

The problems with it are, if you take it to its nature, to 357 loads and 41 Mag levels:

* you get too much pressure
* too much recoil
* not as controllable as either 9mm, 40S&W, 45ACP
* slower follow-up shots
* and last, but not least, these high pressure loads will beat up the gun.

That's the price of performance. To be fair, I do not consider a 357 or 41 Mag exceedingly easy, controllable calibers to shoot either. And 44 Magnum... we all have heard good things about it. Not many will tell you that if you use it in self-defense capacity and shoot the thing inside, it will cause permanent hearing damage.

That's why the FBI dropped it, and that's why for all practical reasons you have to down-load it also, perhaps not all the way to 40S&W, but not that much above it. I have put together some hot 10mm loads. Performace is great, far beyond 45ACP or anything like that but for practical stuff like CCW, or fun shooting, I would pick a 45ACP with lower pressures, less recoil, more available ammo and longer gun life. And 40S&W is very similar to 45ACP, they both launch a 185 grain bullet at about 1,000 fps, so why not choose 45ACP over both "fourties"?

FWIW, after playing with 45ACP and 10mm, my personal choice is a 9mm, for ammo availability, for controllability, for the fun factor and you can still use HP for serious self-defense.

10mm can be great - it's just depends on you and what you want it for.
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Old April 28, 2001, 03:36 PM   #5
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10mm Works As Designed! -

The caliber was designed for experienced handgun shooters, it's proven itself in the field all over North America from swamp deer in Miss. to brownies in Kodiak.
Last I heard from Nugent he'd got a one shot kill at 100yds on a hog in Africa and finished off a wounded Cape Buffalo using his Glock with Corbons ammo.
As mentioned already the 10mm is versatile, from loads equaling the .40 S&W to 200s@1300fps in the five and six inch barrels.
I currently own and load for three 10mms, the Glock 20, a custom Para-Ord and a custom H&K USP-40/10mm.
Recoil is purely subjective but if one needs power then recoil comes along with the package, either way the 10mm still kicks less than a .357 Mag in similiar platforms and loads,it ain't a 44 Mag! Roy
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Old April 28, 2001, 04:32 PM   #6
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If somebody can't handle the recoil of a 10mm they should stick with the .22. The answer to your question is no the 10mm is not overrated. I would say it is vastly underated. It should have been introduced with the 135 grain bullet for defense. I can push them to 1700 fps out of my Glock Model 20. I wouldn't be the least bit apprehensive about tackling a bear with the 180 or 200 grain loads.
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Old April 28, 2001, 05:02 PM   #7
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The 10mm has a large bullet moving at a very healthy velocity. I wouldn't hesitate to use it on black bear. I've hunted deer with the following calibers in handguns. 41 Mag., 44 Mag., 45 Colt and 444 Marlin haven't got around to using a 357 Mag. but it would do the job on deer and black bear.

One weak point of the shooting stats is it doesn't tell where the person was hit.

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Old April 29, 2001, 12:21 AM   #8
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Your points aren't well taken.

No flames intended, but I have to strongly disagree with your points. The evidence doesn't support them.

If you actually LOOKED at the M&S data for 10mm closer, you would realize that almost all of the 10mm loads have NO ACTUAL SHOOTINGS ASSOCIATED WITH THEM! They are "guesstimated" values. And if you are taking M&S's "results" as gospel you haven't examined them very closely. Or listened to **Evan Marshall** point out that they aren't precse predictors anyway (so 94% vs 92% does NOT mean that one load is really "2% better, the results just aren't close to that precise). So that doesn't actually tell you anything about 10mm effectiveness vis-a-vis other calibers when everything is in the 85-95% range anyway.

As for its effectiveness as a critter caliber... is .357 Magnum inadequate for back-up against *most* woodland critters? Because 10mm is bigger and more powerful than THAT, and .357 Mag with heavy loads is used by tons of people as a back up for everything short of large bears just fine. Any handgun is going to be minimally effective against large animals; heck, handguns are minimally effective against PEOPLE. I think that is the point made vis-a-vs 10mm and bears more than anything else.

10mm is not overrated at all. With factory ammo it gives far superior ballistics to any other major autopistol caliber (.45 ACP, .357 Sig, .40S&W, 9mm...). 600+ ft-lbs is not uncommon with FACTORY ammo, and NONE of the previous calibers are going to match that with factory ammo from comparable barrel lengths. Cor-Bon hunting loads are just shy of 700 ft-lbs from a 4.6" barrel. Anything that that would be inadequate for should probably be serviced with a rifle.

Again, no hostility or rudness intended, I just don't think that your points hold water.
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Old April 29, 2001, 12:26 AM   #9
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M16 is right, the 10mm isn`t over rated it`s way *under rated*! Folks are constantly comparing down loaded 10mm loads to full power .40*&* loads and saying "Look they`re almost the same the 10mm sucks!". Of course even in these loads the 10mm is usually 100fps faster with the same bullet. BTW the vaunted FBI is now using a mid range down loaded .40 *&* load because even standard .40 was too much for their girlier agents. Recoil wise the milder loads fired in 10mm sized guns are VERY easy to control and still slightly hotter than .40*&*. The full power 10mm loads in a full sized gun are no harder to control than .40*&* in a light compact gun and no body seems to be complaining about them. They`re also much easier to control than full house .357mag. loads in a 4" revolver. Just last weekend I shot my 10mm Witness with full power Hornady 155gr.XTPs side by side with a *&* 686 with 110gr.JHPs and both the owner of the 686 and I agreed that the Witness was FAR more controlable and much more pleasant to shoot. As for M&S stats note that most of the 10mm numbers are based on projections not real shootings. The stats that do reflect real shootings have far too few shootings with each 10mm load to be even close to accurate. Overpenetration? With the original 200gr. JFP at 1200fps. almost certainly. With 135gr. JHPs at 1400+ I doubt it (in fact I`d suspect that if anything they`d underpenetrate). Somewhere in the middle we find a happy compromise,just like any other caliber. Not a good stopper? Anyone really believe that say GA or Proload`s 155gr.GDHP at 1350fps and 650fpe (almost twice a standard 9mm load!). isn`t a VERY effective fight stopper? As for black bear,a good friend of mine needed 3 well placed shots from his .300 Win.mag. rifle to drop the one he took a couple years ago. Face it even a .454 Casull is a pea shooter compared to a .300 Win.mag. That doesn`t mean a 10mm won`t kill a black bear it just means it`s far from ideal and may not make the kills as quick and humane as they should be. Marcus
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Old April 29, 2001, 01:08 AM   #10
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Q: Is 10mm overrated?

A: No.
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Old April 29, 2001, 01:22 AM   #11
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The 10mm is probably the most underrated caliber for any semiauto. With bullets ranging from 135gr to 220gr and launching platforms from the small Glock 29 to full-sized pistols and revolvers, there is little that it cannot do. It is the Tiger of the gun world, give in and buy one, you wont regret it
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Old April 29, 2001, 12:06 PM   #12
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10 mm overrated?

The 10 mm is a fine cartridge. When loaded to its true potential, you get the equivalent performance of the lower to middle range .41 magnum loads. I don't think that any bad guy (or gal) hit by one of a 180 grain Gold Dot travelling at 1220+ fps is going to think that he / she is going to be any less incapacitated than someone hit by a 9 mm 115 grain +P Corbon load. Take the Marshall / Sanow percentages with a grain of salt.

As others have pointed out, the 10 mm is a very flexible cartridge. You can load them to the FBI-Lite specifications (that same 180 grainer can be pushed to a mere 950 fps), and reuse that piece of brass many times. The recoil of these FBI-Lite spec cartridges out of my Glock 20 is very tame, and easily controlled by a newcomer on his / her second shooting session.

There's just something to be said about having 15+1 rounds of .41 magnum-like power; it's akin to a feeling of the "warm fuzzies."

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Old April 29, 2001, 03:35 PM   #13
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Any reloader with experience and ballistics knowledge can easily cook up some extra full power 10mm loads nearing and surpassing 800 fpe.

The 10mm is not popular because of the FBI cry baby factor. Their accountants and bank manager agents couldn't qualify with the 200 grain Norma round so they wimped out with the 40 SW offspring.

A well loaded 10mm round can match the .357 mag and equal the 41 mag in performance. I talk my Glock 20 into bear country and will hunt whitetail deer in the fall with my own handloads.

Maybe a 180 grain Gold Dot, Montana Gold, or Horn XTP bullet, Starline Brass and some 800X or Blue Dot powder or other really slow pistol powder and a 6" hunting barrel to get it going 1400 fps. That's 783 fpe. I've got my own chono too so I know how fast my bullets are going. Think that will take down a deer? Maybe even an elk or moose. No problem.

And why would I want to go hunting with a wheelgun. They are nice for old time's sake but semi auto's rule. With a nice 2.75 trigger pull on my Glock 20 why would I want a heavier trigger pull associated with most wheelguns. No thanks. Drastic plastic destroys just fine!

The 10mm is just not popular because ammo manufacturers don't have a large enough market to cook up the hot loads the 10mm is fully capable of supporting. Go over to GlockTalk and go to the 10 Ring. We're cooking up some smokin 10mm loads that make Silvertips appear sluggish.

10mm is alive and well. Just be a reloader!
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Old April 29, 2001, 05:53 PM   #14
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SAD but TRUE

In the real world the 10mm ends up as a 'hobby' cartridge, too powerful and/or long for L.E. work, not quite enough poop for hunting much more than deer and smaller, and just exotic enough that ammo cost stays high.

I like it, though (but I think the 41AE is great, too, so what do I know).
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Old April 30, 2001, 12:50 PM   #15
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THE 10MM AUTO...

THE 10MM IS THE FINEST CARTRIDGE DESIGN OF THE PAST 35 YEARS.
PERIOD.
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Old April 30, 2001, 01:53 PM   #16
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Actually, I don't think factory load selection is too bad. Factory self defense loads clocking 550-650 ft-lbs are commonplace: Cor-Bon, Federal, Georgia Arms, Hornady, Pro Load, Triton and Winchester all sell them. Cor-Bon sells hunting loads that are just under 700 ft-lbs from a 4.6" barrel (180gr JSP @ 1320 FPS). $13 a box for Blazers is on par with alot of .45 ACP practice ammo out there, too. For most uses that's all you need, and the ability to *safely* load to ~800 ft-lbs for critters is certainly a big plus.
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Old April 30, 2001, 02:39 PM   #17
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Have to agree with WESHOOT2, 10mm has become a hobbyist cartridge. Fun to load, shoot and share stories (looking at this thread, whoppers!) and data with. But falls way short of a true woods gun and unless loaded down, too hot for defense or LE work. A wide power band that sits right in the middle of no where! Only positive thing that can be said about the cartridge is that it's extremely accurate, flat shooting and easy to handle.

Robert
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Old April 30, 2001, 02:45 PM   #18
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Wild boar

I got buddies that hunt wild boar with the 10 mm. Boar are mean critters (and fairly heavy). It surprises me that the same people who hunt boar do not recommend the 10mm for Black Bears (which are under 300 lbs in most areas except in rare cases).
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Old April 30, 2001, 04:05 PM   #19
Robert the41MagFan
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Hunting and defending are two worlds apart when it comes to critters. One thing is hitting an animal and watch him run. Another is shooting at angry game and have the misfortune of him land on you.

Robert
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Old April 30, 2001, 04:52 PM   #20
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The 10mm of now is not the same as the 10mm of then. When the 10 first came out there were a lot of FBI agents who couldn't handel it. I bought a S&W 1076 when they first came out and it had a hell of a lot more recoil with factory loads then the loads of today.
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Old April 30, 2001, 07:03 PM   #21
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Kimber Man...

Then you just aren't buying the right factory ammo!
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Old April 30, 2001, 07:27 PM   #22
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I guess not, I load my own most of the time.
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Old May 2, 2001, 05:11 PM   #23
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Look, if you check out the Corbon 180 and 200 grain hunting loads, they're pumping out almost 700 fpe. That's more effective than .357 mag and 41 mag.

A handgun is not an "effective" woods gun. A Marlin 45-70 guide gun is what will effectively stop most bears - black and brown.
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Old May 2, 2001, 05:38 PM   #24
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To ALOT of folks who recreate in the woods (camping, fishing, hiking, backpacking, riding horses, riding ATV's, motorcycles etc, etc.) a handgun makes an excellent alternative to a rifle or shotgun. If you're hiking ten miles UP to a pristine alpine lake to do some fly fishing weight IS your primary concern. Matter of fact..I've never seen a hiker/backpacker pass me on a trail with a long gun of any kind. That said, I think a 10mm pistol is an excellent "woods" gun. Especially the lightweight G-20. FWIW, a factory 10mm load is a little more powerful than 357 maggie but the only 41 mag load it comes close to is the 175gr Silvertip (which is the low end mild load). Just my thoughts, J. Parker
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Old May 2, 2001, 08:04 PM   #25
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10mm is an outstanding cartridge. I am a big fan of it. In fact, if I had not discovered the .45 Super (and the forthcoming .45 SMC) I would still be a big fan. But now I got a Glock 21 with a 5 inch barrel and I can reload .45 Super with the same dies and setup as I reload for my .45 acp 1911. Ever since, I just lost interest in 10mm and sold my G20 setup to a friend, along with the reloading components. He is very happy. He is in law enforcement and will carry it on duty. It will serve him well.
I find the .45 Super design to be much more versatile in that I can revert to .45 acp if I wish, for cheap and available factory ammo, and I can reload a variety of powers and loads with one setup on my press.

I do agree though that the 10mm is very underrated and a most excellent design.

If I had were dropped off in the middle of a war zone or outback with only one production semi-auto pistol, I would pick a full capacity Glock 20 without a second guess. I would bet that many other people on this forum would choose the same.

Ted Nugent dropped an African Warthog at 110 paces using a 135 gr Corbon 10mm from his Glock 20. He said it was his last day on safari and he was out on a stroll saying "goodbye" to Africa and looking at the morning birds while sipping coffe. He saw the Warthog and he took it with his sidearm. He makes a habit of going nowhere in African without his Glock 20 (and since he was not planning on hunting but just using it for defense, I am not sure if he had the 6 inch barrel in it or not). The round exited the huge tough animal! That surprised me that that light load would go through. It also somewhat surprised me that the 10mm dropped a huge tough African beast with one shot. The 10mm is no bullet to be trifled with. It can be loaded up (deep penetration) for hunting and loaded "light" (less penetration) for human defense.

Regarding Black bears, just FYI two Forest Rangers recently hunted down and killed a momma bear and her large cub, and they did it with their issue 9mm handguns. So, I suspect a 10mm with about twice the power would do the job okay, although any sane person would of course prefer a 12 gauge slug gun if given the option of carrying something that big.

It seems that Ted Nugent probably knows a lot more about wild animals and such than I do, and he relies on a Glock 20 for defense in Africa. I think that says something.



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