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Old March 23, 2001, 01:11 AM   #1
IanS
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I guess this is the martial art/street fighting technique taught to Israeli armed forces and military/police forces here in the U.S. (as their ads claim). I guess with all all this emphasis with firearms training, hand to hand combat may be even more important since our firarms or knife may not always be in reach. Just went through an introductory class and it was great. Their U.S. headquarters is here in L.A. and I'm joining their training program.

Anyone here actually trained in this relatively new martial art and how effective do you think it is? Regardless, it'll get me back in shape and throwing punches relieves stress in ways that my Glock can't.

[Edited by Ian11 on 03-23-2001 at 01:34 AM]
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Old March 23, 2001, 02:04 AM   #2
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I think this belongs in Alternative Force, but I respond with my experiences (so I'm not "trained" in any sense of the word). In a AF/CQB thread, I was referred to Krav Maga as a martial art I should take. So after some online research, I checked out a school near my home over the weekend. There was no class when I got there, but an instructor talked with me personally for over an hour about Krav Maga and the cirriculum and I have to say I'm sold.

As far as I know, Krav Maga is not as much a Martial "Art" (forgive the wordplay, I realize art can have utility- just as swordmaking is an art) as it is pure Self Defense and Conditioning. They focus on making stuff work and unlike most martial arts, a big part of it is helping students build skills as quickly as possible (now I don't mean paying folks to give you a bunch of colored belts)... rather than climbing some skill stratification before you can learn anything useful. I take my first class next week and I'm really excited, I'll report back on how it turned out.
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Old March 23, 2001, 02:22 AM   #3
Makarov9x17
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I guess with all this emphasis with firearms training, hand to hand combat may be even more important since our firearms or knife may not always be in reach.

This is why I study Krav Maga and attend their training center in West LA as well. In a very short time (3 months), I have seen my boxing skills improve dramatically and feel
much better about my self defense techniques.



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Old March 23, 2001, 07:50 AM   #4
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Yep. Let's get this thread over in the experts' forum:

AF/CQC: Alternative Force/Close Quarters Combat
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Old March 23, 2001, 09:51 AM   #5
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We had a 45 minute demo of it in my martial arts class. It seemed very no-nonsense, no frills, and effective. The instructor stated that it was built upon the body's natural reaction to threats (ie, being choked? you naturally grab your attacker's arms) and goes from there, rather than trying to re-program you to perform complex techniques. It seemed to follow the KISS principle nicely.

I never had a chance to learn more, but it seemed good.

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Old March 23, 2001, 12:11 PM   #6
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I have a direct interest, and first hand knowledge of this subject. Krav Maga, is a great exercise in marketing. Krav Maga means Self Defence. It is "taught" to the Israeli forces, like any force teaches its troops. I run a fight school in Atlanta and Porto Allegre Brazil. We teach Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai, and Kali. Not to mention, my partners brother is the owner of Taurus firearms. So you can imagine our programs...We have a serious interest in what works. Armed and un-armed. And we have the ability to give what works. Tried and tested in the real world. We teach to law enforcement. Which is an ever growing client base because they have discovered that there is a lot of hype in programs like that. Krav Maga is on the same level as the HORRIBLE SCARS system. That program is an outright joke. Those guys will not step up to prove their art, because "it is too deadly!" That is laughable. Krav Maga has been the same way. Cool name, cool symbols... What else do you need?


At any rate, the "people" from a couple different Krav Maga associations have approached us about teaching our stuff and calling it Krav Maga. They just wanted to re-name the stuff we teach. That's all. And the stuff that they are teaching in the associations, the one in LA being a major culprit, is hardly "effective". I was asked to evaluate the knife defense videos, and some of the other hand to hand videos, and they were absolutely horrible. they are not practicle. Nor, are they effective. There were so many movements that places you at an off balanced position. and so many movements that could only work in training, unless you have the timing of Bruce Lee. Right now, all they are teaching is re-packaged traditional martial arts. And some things that I think they made up. You try front kicking the knife out of an attackers hand. Never mind that he will cut you, even as an untrained thug. Imagine what would have if you tried to do that garbage to a guy who knows how to use a blade. I personally would remove the vascular system of your lower leg. Traditional arts are fine if you are interested in the science of the martial arts. But they are not practical in todays world.

They have a product to sell. Just stop and think about this. They claim that they can teach you to "master" Krav Maga in a few week long, and very expensive seminars. Is that even rational to think that would be effective? No, it is not. Kind of like a Wade Cook investment seminar, alot of hot air. And a ton of money.

If you want effective training, find a place that teaches something like Muay Thai, or kali. Kali is a very lethal weapons art, that is very effective. You will not find a better striking art than Muay Thai, and you will not find a better way to protect yourself on the ground than BJJ. Now, I do not say this out bias for my styles. I chose my styles because they are probably the most effective out there. I have been at this a while. The reason I say this is because these guys are selling alot of people a very false sense of security. And they are part of what makes the business of martial arts bad. They sell hype. Any of you in the Atlanta area, are more than welcome to come train with us at any time. Then you will see totally effective fight training.
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Old March 23, 2001, 02:28 PM   #7
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ov1, What's UP! Didn't know you were over here as well...

BTW... ditto on the Kali/BJJ/Muay Thai combo. I know there are several people on the forum from Atlanta, you should check his place out. Sparring with someone that knows both Thai boxing and solid grappling/submission skills is a very humbling experience indeed...
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Old March 23, 2001, 02:37 PM   #8
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KREPT!! This is way too cool!!!!
It is good to see you here! I hope that I can get some folks from here out to train! that would be great.

I see that you have been here a while... ;-)
Thanks for the recommendation!!

This has the capacity to be a good discussion!
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Old March 23, 2001, 03:01 PM   #9
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?

I don't know anything about Krav Maga, but I've seen too many of these Combatives programs that were all hype & advertising to recommend any of them. Sorry, but that's just my experience.

Choke, where in Atlanta are you?

[Edited by Danger Dave on 03-23-2001 at 04:04 PM]
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Old March 23, 2001, 03:49 PM   #10
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Danger Dave, you are right on the money, hype is it!!
I personally live in Smyrna. We have a school right next door to Cowboys Country Bar in Kennesaw. You an Atl boy Dave? You know you are going to have to come out if so!

Krept, small world. I still can't believe it! Cool!
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Old March 23, 2001, 04:03 PM   #11
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Choke, I live in Dallas. I know exactly where Cowboy's is (the only time I went in, it was still called the Crystal Chandelier). What classes are offered in Kennesaw? Maybe I can drop by some time.

BTW, I've noticed a lot of UG'ers have started hanging out here, too. Skorzeny's the one that told me about http://www.mixedmartialarts.com.

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Old March 23, 2001, 04:22 PM   #12
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Dave, you are on the OG too? That is cool!
We are doing straight sport BJJ and NHB every night bro! You need to come by and check it out. We literally touching walls with that place you used to know as the chanelier...Then you need to bring us (Ricardo) out for a seminar in your neck of the woods!!!
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Old March 23, 2001, 08:22 PM   #13
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Well, I live in L.A., I am familiar with all the BJJ, Muay Thai, and all other serious NHB's competiton schools in the area. At the moment, L.A. is number one in the country for MMA training, I have met a lot of the big names (Bas Rutten, Tito Ortiz, ect.) and worked with a lot of big names in the business, especially the Pancrase guys. Last time I saw Bas he was with the head trainer (a former student of his) of the Krav Maga studio in West L.A.. Everyone seems to give a lot of respect to Krav Maga here. No one looked at it as fluff, and while I myself am not a practitioner, I am impressed with the names attached to this school.

Krav Maga is not a "one on one" sport like MT or BJJ, and appears to address the real issues you will deal with in a street fight rather than giving you a false sense of security one achieves from a "one on one" competition sport. I'm saying this having recently been attacked by 6 guys in a bad part of Hollywood. Despite the fact that I crippled the main attacker with a series of hard kicks, it did nothing to prevent me being jumped from behind. And while I succesfully arm barred another one of my attackers, it did nothing to prevent myself from being stomped in the chest. Preparing for a street fight IS NOT the same as preparing for the ring.

Good luck with your Krav Maga, you are in good hands.
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Old March 23, 2001, 11:03 PM   #14
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Thanks for all your quick replies. I still plan to join despite some of the criticisms so far. Personally, I have no illusions that learning any discipline will guarantee my safety. My chances may go up but neither will it give me a false sense of security. I don't have that attitude with my firearms and neither will it apply to learning any discipline.

Simple fact is Krav Maga may get my lazy A$$ up from this computer and do some physical conditioning. Working out at a health club is boring.


*I still hope to see more posts concerning the validity of Krav Maga as a practical means of self defense.
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Old March 24, 2001, 02:34 AM   #15
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Krav maga is suffering from a slight case of what friends of mine refer as 'Squeal Syndrome' -- the desire to be the 'in' thing, even if you're not.

I know of an instructor who has taught tournament Tae Kwon Do for as long as I've known him. Recently, though, he's losing money becuase the 'cool' martial skill to learn is one of the mixed/street ones: kajukenbo, jeet kune do, BJJ/muay thai and the like.

So, all of a sudden his Tae Kwon Do sign has come down, and a Krav Maga sign has gone up in it's place. He's still teaching tournament Tae Kwon Do, he's just calling it Krav Maga.

And because people think he's teaching a 'cool' martial skill, he's got full classes again.

I have a sneaking suspicion that this may happen quite frequently in the self-defense world.

As far as the skill of krav maga goes, the bona fide krav maga techniques that I've seen are very street orientated and very effective. Fellow peace officers that have krav maga backgrounds handle themselves very well in real-life street-level confrontations, unlike some other currently popular skills that I've seen. YMMV. Use the Internet and the martial skills community to make sure that you are actually being taught krav maga and learn.

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Old March 24, 2001, 02:42 AM   #16
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good lord ...

if there's one thing i've learned, most of experience is nowhere near an all-or-nothing enterprise, i.e. go out and experience all you can, so what. take a few of whatever classes you can afford, time/price-wise. take a few hits, dish out a few. it's all good. figure out what works for you and just keep your eyes/ears open. no ONE person/school has the 'answer.' anyone who tells you they have the ultimate in anything is trying to sell you something.

stay safe,

alex.
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Old March 24, 2001, 10:41 AM   #17
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Krav Maga

Hi everyone.

I realize this thread is very old, but I just discovered it and thought I should make a response.

I am a Krav Maga instructor in Los Angeles. I'm obviously biased, but I do consider it to be an extremely effective system of self defense, including its weapons techniques.

For the record, KM has never asked anyone to just use the name and teach their own stuff. We are a very open system, teaching by principles rather than specific techniques, but we do have a curriculum, and that curriculum and those principles are Krav Maga, nothing else.

There are certainly a number of imposters out there. Check our website at http://www.kravmaga.com to find out who has been certified and is legitimate.

Anyone with questions or skepticism about our techniques can post notes on our website, or email me (johnw@kravmaga.com) or come down to our training center. You can train as our guest and we'll answer any questions you have.

Regarding the bjj/muay thai/kali combination. I have immense respect for all three systems. I love to train with muay thai fighters and we do a lot of groundwork with bjj people. My only comment on COMBINING them is that each system has a slightly different thought process. The three do not integrate well without significant adjustments that can cause delays in a person's reaction on the street. This delay can be deadly. It is better to find a system that is fully integrated, where techniques in one area of the system are compatible with movements and techniques in another part. The thought process is the same throughout. For me, the answer to this was KM. It may be different for you, but I believe as a training principle the need for an integrated system is real. For years, military units have made the mistake of borrowing one area from this system, another area from that system, and they came away with training that was too much of a hode-podge. KM in Israel always sought to homogenize the system so that training time was quicker, and retention was longer without the need for retraining.
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Old March 24, 2001, 10:49 AM   #18
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Lawdog is 100% on the money. Martial arts is one of the "trendiest" things in the world. Over the last 20 years or so, I've seen several styles come & go in terms of their popularity. One year, it's Kung Fu; then TaeKwonDo, then Japanese Karate, then the eclectic styles (e.g. American Karate), then traditional styles, then Aikido (thanks to Segal's movies), then the various grappling styles (BJJ, Jujitsu, etc.), and right now it's combatives. And you see the same people/schools teaching all of it! All of them promise the same things - "We'll make you unbeatable" or some such nonsense.

My point is, I guess, be very careful of what you buy into. I'd say 90% of what's taught out there isn't what it's purported to be (most people I know would say I'm being generous with that figure).

Like I've said before, most of these Combatives programs (Krav Maga, Scars, Line, etc.) are just abbreviated versions of other styles, with a few techniques from here or there thrown in the mix. And they're usually taught by someone with very little expertise in even one style (beware of experts in many systems - very few people master even one thing in their lifetime).

I'm not gonna say it's worthless, but be careful what you spend your time on - we don't have enough time in our short lives to waste it.

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Old March 24, 2001, 03:23 PM   #19
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Welcome to the Firing Line, Mr Whitman. Glad to have you aboard.

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Old March 25, 2001, 11:50 PM   #20
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Thanks for the welcome.

One additional note: there is no technique in KM in which the defender kicks the knife out of the assailant's hand.

And yeah, there is a lot of crap out there. Naturally, we don't think we're part of it. But whether you like KM or not, I can guarantee one thing: in a very short time after learning a technique, you'll try it in realistic situations against real attacks, and you'll be able to decide for yourself. Looking forward to anyone's posts on the subject, or anything related!
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Old March 26, 2001, 09:01 AM   #21
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Good post MrWhitman,
But I have to respond. Not to be confrontational, but merely for the sake of discussion. You say that there is no KM technique that advocates using a kick against a knife weilding attacker. I am afraid sir, I have it on tape. I have it in one of your books. Maybe not YOUR book, but the book written by the man who supposedly brought us KM. You say that there is a delay in the thought process that goes into combining BJJ/kali/thai etc, that simply is not true. Any delay that may come is due too the person doing the fighting. No style can prepare you for multiple attackers. And no good bjj instructor is going to tell you to armbar someone in the street. that is crazy. a good bjj instructor is going to tell you to get your butt off the ground. So saying that you armbarred someone in the street, I doubt it.

For those of you who do not realize, the arts of bjj, thai, and kali were not created as sport arts at all. In fact they were created as combat arts, pure and simple. The were created to for the maximum amount of destruction in the shortest period of time. We can argue about who style is best for ages. That will get no where. I still however, maintain, that after my experience dealing with the KM orgainizations, that they are an exercise in marketing.

For the most part, any exposure most of you may have had to bjj and thai has been sport related. You relate the two to NHB competitions. That kind of thing is not even half of what these styles are all about. You are going on what you see and what you are told. Not what the tangible truth is. It does not matter who you have trained with, or who you have heard to be aligned with a style. Learn the roots of a system, and you be the best fighter that you can be.
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Old March 26, 2001, 10:22 AM   #22
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Strange question - why all the emphasis on kicking a knife out of someone's hand?

Would it make any difference if I said I know someone who has kicked a pistol of an attacker's hand?

Admittedly - 1) it was pointed at someone else (the then Sheriff of my home town - that's where I heard about it) 2) I don't think the attacker was trained in what to do to stop it.

I guess my point is that it is possible, even if it's not practical. I don't think any style could take credit for teaching the kind of skill level it would take, it would be up to the individual to develop it.
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Old March 26, 2001, 11:39 AM   #23
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chokeu2, I know you don't mean to be "confrontational" but maybe you need to change your .sig? A couple points:

reDelay - your response simply isn't intuitive. If people are taught multiple ways to respond to a situation, they're obviously going to have to consider those ways. In part, you could say it's the person's "fault" for not training like a dog and mastering his reflexes to the point that the best solutions arises out of his multiple choice situations... but Krav Maga, is in large part, about bringing people up to a high skill level quickly which is one of the reasons it is so strongly endorsed by the Law Enforcement community.

re"...that after my experience dealing with the KM orgainizations" - this seems profoundly unfair. If someone came to me in the guise of a BJJ expert, selling his craft, then I floored him with no prior training, does that suddenly make all BJJ organizations shysters or fraudulent weaklings? A fairer lesson to take away from those experiences is to check credentials before passing judgement on an entire style or perhaps something as simple as caveat emptor... without the decidedly anti-Krav Maga slant?

re"It does not matter who you have trained with, or who you have heard to be aligned with a style. Learn the roots of a system, and you be the best fighter that you can be." - First off, if it doesn't matter who's aligned with a style, how can you judge Krav Maga from those you've seen? Second, I feel I have to disagree heartily. I would say the style is even LESS important than a good instructor. Finally, "roots" can mean psuedo-mystical junk or hailing the originator(s) as an undefeatible hero or some such nonsense. I'm more interested in "Does it work?" and "Can he teach?" Isn't the "roots" simply worshipping those originally "aligned with a style" or- even worse- just marketing? But regardless, Krav Maga is well rooted in the LE community... good enough for me.
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Old March 26, 2001, 12:16 PM   #24
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Paladin, I hear what you are saying. And I think that we are locked into a syntactical miasma! ;-)
When I say roots, it has nothing to do with mystics of any kind. I am talking about the reason the art was developed. I am talking about how the art would fair in the world today, not how it faired in the days when cumbersome armor was worn.

The experience that myself and my partner have had, started with the link that the gentleman above listed. We started out evaluating the art via the tapes for sale. What we saw was horrible examples of self defense. We saw repackaged examples of old traditional martial arts that are not fluid enough to work on the streets nowadays. And realistically, how can you expect to go to a couple of seminars and then hope to become an expert? You can't. I place Krav Maga on the same level of SCARS. The underlying principle of using simple things that work is great. That what we all strive to do. But the idea of going to a seminar, paying several thousand dollars, and getting to the master level is deceptive at best. The people that we spoke with were concerned with our belt levels. The knife defense videos that I saw were nothing short of funny.

I am sorry to sound so jaded, but it is things like this that make the martial arts a bit of a laughing stock at times. There is no quick fix out there if you want to be a good fighter. Or if you want to be proficient at self defense, armed or unarmed.

I would also submit to you that Krav Maga is not as widely esteemed by law enforcement as you say. I know for fact that it is not. Many departments are seeing it for what it is, a marketing package. One of our main focuses is on law enforcement training. You have to take each type of training as an individual subject. You use what works for blades/batons. You use what works to get you off of the ground. You use what works with firearms. And I am here to tell you that the old traditional styles don't do it. There are those of us that train law enforcement who do not have the desire or need to use it as part of our advertisements. We do it, and keep doing it because what we, and others like us, truly have to offer. In my eye, using the fact that one may have trained law enforcement or military at some point, only cheapens the offering. I immediately place a low opinion on anyone with ads screaming with claims of being leading trainers to law enforcement. It is a ploy to pull in students.

My response is absolutely intuitive my friend. The reason that you say KM is "so effective" is that is takes principles of what works and puts them together. That is all any school needs to do. So to say that uniting bjj/thai/kali is non intuitive, I disagree soundly.

My experience with the KM organizations, like I stated before, started with kravmaga.com. And went down hill from there. So far, all we have seen is the desire to repackage. But hey, if there is a market for it, and people buy it, great. Just as long as they don't say they created the things that they are repackaging.

A good instructor, one who has a very deep knowledge is obvioulsy one of the most important factors in training to fight. Sport or non sport. And you just cannot get that from becoming an instructor after going to some expensive seminars. We have gone through and looked at credentials. That is why I do not like what I see.

I will say this, if people want KM, great. Let em have it. But it is far from being the most effective training system out there. Nothing can give you a quick fix, and make you a good fighter in a hurry. Nothing can replace good hard training, and experience.
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Old March 26, 2001, 07:08 PM   #25
ATeaM
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"No style can prepare you for multiple attackers. And no good bjj instructor is going to tell you to armbar someone in the street. that is crazy. a good bjj instructor is going to tell you to get your butt off the ground. So saying that you armbarred someone in the street, I doubt it."

Mr. Whitman and I are not one and the same, it seems that you are partially addressing my post. First and foremost "No style can prepare you for multiple attackers" flies in the face of what many martials arts claim to be all about. You should probably elaborate on that before you go any further since it is a strong assertion that practically no one who teaches martial arts would agree with. I'm also curious about your experience with BJJ since you seem to think BJJ instructors base their repetoire on street fighting or that someone advised me to to do one specific technique in my recent encounter ? That's odd, you also seem to think a BJJ instructor would tell someone to "get his butt off the ground" when it is common knowledge that a BJJ fighter is least vulnerable on his back and is encouraged to drop to his back if a fight isn't going his way (Sakuraba vs Renzo). You make a lot of strange assertions based on little information, maybe its best you kept your opinion to yourself until you can clarify what your experience is ? So far you are sounding like a mall ninja.


"For those of you who do not realize, the arts of bjj, thai, and kali were not created as sport arts at all. In fact they were created as combat arts, pure and simple. The were created to for the maximum amount of destruction in the shortest period of time."

They were all created for different reasons and they are so different in technique and origin I am beginning to wonder whether you have experience with any of them outside of watching videos.

"I still however, maintain, that after my experience dealing with the KM orgainizations, that they are an exercise in marketing. "

This is all from watching a video ?

"For the most part, any exposure most of you may have had to bjj and thai has been sport related. You relate the two to NHB competitions. That kind of thing is not even half of what these styles are all about."

Hmmm, I'm curious where you are learning BJJ and Muay Thai that is not "sport related" ? Other than on videos such a creature does not exist. Maybe you have Walter Michaelowski's "Combat Muay Thai" video ? Send it to me and I'll have him autograph it for you.

"You are going on what you see and what you are told. Not what the tangible truth is"

No, I go on years of competition and being paid to spar with professional fighters. You have yet to tell us your experience however ?

"It does not matter who you have trained with, or who you have heard to be aligned with a style. Learn the roots of a system, and you be the best fighter that you can be."

?



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