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Old May 31, 2000, 11:08 AM   #26
FUD
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IZZY, I'm far from a pro (just a gun owner who had some LEO training a couple of decades ago and worked in a related field for a few years) and I didn't mean to discount the virtues of the .32ACP but I'm sitting here with my Raven .25ACP in one hand and my Kahr MK9 in the other and they are not much different in size -- the Raven is smaller but not by much and I understand that the MK9 and the PPK are the same size (never personally verified it myself but that's what the documentation says). Considering the relative sizes, I would rather have a 9mm. First as a deterant and secondly, for actual use. Yes, the kick from the MK9 is snappy but manageable with practise.

Also, here's a link to the The Fackerites's views on stopping power. Marshall & Sanow believe that lite & fast is best and supply numbers as proof while the Fackerites believe that heavy & slow is best and they supply their own numbers as proof. I have no personal experience in this area and since both sides seem to present good arguements (I give a slight edge to Marshall & Sanow), I alternate every other round -- better to be half wrong than all wrong.

Sorry for taking this trend in another direction. My final advise is to carry the biggest caliber gun that you can accurately shoot. And the key word here is "carry". I can accurate shoot a 4013TSW and even though it is classified as a "compact", it's still to big to carry concealed under my given situation. Additionally, the MK40 is about the same size as the MK9 but I find it to be too powerful a round to effectively shoot out of such a small gun. The finally answer is ... CARRY THE BIGGEST CALIBER YOU CAN EFFECTIVELY SHOOT.
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Old May 31, 2000, 06:10 PM   #27
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FUD,

I wonder what mesurments the literature talked about? Is it as Thin as the ppk? Even still I wish I had a Kell-tec" in .32! The recoil on those little guns is much better than My all steel ppk! (Alot lighter too!) The cartrage is about the same as .380 in its usage.

If I get a chance I will try to find a Khar-9 to fire and mesure. till' then I will advocate the Kell-tec ...not the ppk!
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Old May 31, 2000, 06:48 PM   #28
Lavan
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I had a .32 on my CCW until 2 yrs ago when the new sheriff decided no one could carry anything less than .38.........soooooooo...
now I carry a .38
Dang, that .32 was nice an tiny, but a Chief Spl. drops in a back pocket too.
I also have the 9mm an the .45 on the CCW but I like to carry light.
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Old May 31, 2000, 06:55 PM   #29
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Even with Foicchi hollowpoints (60gr) the P32 will put rounds through a large metal coffee can at 25 yds easily. I don't feel at all bad about carrying it. BTW, the Kel tec P32 gives the highest velocities of any of the super compact 32s due to the browning style lockup. It also tips the scales at 9.5 oz. loaded. If I remember correctly the fiocchi 60gr gets 1050-70 fps. Plus, like he said, it'll go through a refridgerator door.
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Old May 31, 2000, 07:51 PM   #30
riddleofsteel
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haven't we been down this road before?
here is the slant from my view. Fud is right. there are now 9mm's and even .40 auto's no larger though somewhat more weighty than the typical .25,.32,.380.
if you feel secure with a "mouse gun" so be it. but i challenge you to do some varmiting or light hunting with your mouse gun. i think you will be amazed at not only how hard it is to hit a ground hog, feral cat, ground squirrel or coyote with your deminutive pistols but also how little damage one can do.
do a search under the string "Handguns poor tool for crisis mangagement". in it you can see that even so called major power cartridges often fail to do the job.
you won't catch me leaving the house with less than a .38 +p or a fast 9mm.
JMHO

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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Let he that hath no sword sell his garment and buy one. Luke 22-36
They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. Song of Solomon 3-8
The man that can keep his head and aims carefully when the situation has gone bad and lead is flying usually wins the fight.
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Old May 31, 2000, 09:55 PM   #31
Alex Johnson
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While you will get no arguement from me concerning the .25 as a poor choice for concealed carry, I do find it somewhat difficult to buy totally into the claims of ineffectiveness many seem to feel of the round. Statistically the .25 has accounted for it's fair share of homicides in the past, and if you look at the Florida incident, I'm sure it will continue to do so in the future. I have a Baby Browning style .25 and while I don't consider it to be a good choice for concealed carry, it does give good penetration with Blazer's 50 grain ball, it is also very reliable with this particular load. Having seen those little 50 grain bullets penetrate over 4 inches in a pine log I find it hard to believe that they would lack the power to punch through a human skull. I can see how they could glance off if hit at an angle, but I don't give much thought to the claims that they would fail to penetrate at close range with a direct hit. The .25 may be a lousy choice for a concealed carry gun, but in the right hands, with careful shots, I don't think the user would be exactly defenseless.
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Old June 1, 2000, 01:43 AM   #32
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You can date me and my best friend by our belief that Sean Connery is the *real* James Bond. Where the friend and I split was 1) my dad had a Beretta mod 34 380 with that rococco look and 2) I read the Fleming book where they took 007's 25 away and made him carry a 32 ppk or a 38spl model 38 bodyguard. I never forgave 007 for throwing away a 38 for a measly 32. Fast forward... the friend gets the PPK 7.65. I, on the other hand make several trips into half a dozen gunshops, with money in my pocket, thinking this will be the time I go through and get one. Until invariably I try that double action trigger that would make an olympic weightlifter cringe. Then one day here's a commercial 32 cal Beretta model 35, '52 proof marks, in just barely worn enough condition to shoot without guilt. ( Bring up the background music to "Happy together" ).

Ah, so romantic, right? And an empty 3 pound coffee can actually holds 2 lbs. 4 ozs. of coffee when you buy it. Now the coffee's gone want to guess what it holds? 27 loaded HKS model 57 speedloaders - 41 magnum silvertips. The can sits next to my 3 4" (41 mag) fixed sight model 58 M&P's and a 4" (41 mag) adj. sight model 57.

I love my 32 but I grab the battle rifles, assault rifles, pistol caliber carbines, shotguns, and heavy caliber pistols first when I can.

P.S.: I'm not that into the 41 mag. New metallurgy, N frame, fixed sight M&P revolver, that I'm into. There's a firm that replaces the S&W adjustable sights with high profile pinned (?) single piece rear sights and a dovetailed front, different heights available and windage drift adjustable. Once sighted add tritiums, match those sights with their upgraded mechanism on the latest mod. 29s, and chamber for 45 acp/ar/super, dehorn, and let me have a half dozen to stash strategically. Elegant dream gun. I'd settle for half a dozen same run nice and tight model 10's in 38 regulated for 158LSWHP+P+.
Too late in evening, drifting in and out at the keyboard nite all

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"They asked would I fight for my country; I answered the FBI, yea!
"I will point a gun for my country but, I won't guarantee you which way."
Woody Guthrie

[This message has been edited by Rusty S (edited June 01, 2000).]
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Old June 1, 2000, 10:35 AM   #33
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alex Johnson: ... Statistically the .25 has accounted for it's fair share of homicides in the past, and if you look at the Florida incident, I'm sure it will continue to do so in the future ...[/quote]At the risk of repeating myself, it isn't about "killing", it's about "stopping" (read my earlier post about the deputy's wife who killed her attacker but wasn't able to stop him before he killed her). Under the right circumstances, you can shoot me with a .22 short and I'll be dead within minutes. But under less than ideal circumstances, people have taken multiple hits in the center of mass from more powerful calibers and continued to be a hostile threat for several minutes later -- the most famous example of this in recent memory is the FBI shoot-out in Miami where a BG took a couple of 9mm's in the arm & chest and continued firing for several minutes causing the death of an agent.

In real-world shootings, the BEST that the .25 has been able to demonstrate was a 25% stopping rate (again, we're talking "stopping", not "killing"). The .32 has a 63% success rate. The .380 claims 70%. The 9mm, 91% and 96% for the .40S&W. Again, these are the stopping percentages with the BEST loads in each caliber.

IZZY, if you can get your hands on the 3/2000 issue of Combat Handguns, on page 51 is a photo of the PPK and the MK9 side by side. I don't have access to a scanner, otherwise I would post the photo here. Looking at the picture, the two guns are almost exactly the same size. The PPK has a slimmer & more pointed barrel while the MK9 is more square and boxy. Other than that, the two guns are the same size. To be perfectly honest with you, I prefer the DA/SA design of the PPK as I am not too fond of DAO in pistols. I just don't feel comfortable trusting my life or my loved one to a .32 or a .380 when I can get a 9mm in the same size and still be able to shoot it accurately.
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Old June 1, 2000, 12:07 PM   #34
Oleg Volk
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bdog5150:
Even with Foicchi hollowpoints (60gr) the P32 will put rounds through a large metal coffee can at 25 yds easily. I don't feel at all bad about carrying it. BTW, the Kel tec P32 gives the highest velocities of any of the super compact 32s due to the browning style lockup. It also tips the scales at 9.5 oz. loaded. If I remember correctly the fiocchi 60gr gets 1050-70 fps. Plus, like he said, it'll go through a refridgerator door. [/quote]

That's not quite what I said: Fiocchi ball reliably penetrated fridge door AND back wall and went into the backstop. That was impressive by comparison with .22 Mini-mags which failed to go though even the vinyl covering the door, much less the sheet metal backing (old fridge). P32 can be hard to fire accurately but it is adequate to about 25ft, IMO.
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Old June 1, 2000, 12:10 PM   #35
Oleg Volk
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by riddleofsteel:
Fud is right. there are now 9mm's and even .40 auto's no larger though somewhat more weighty than the typical .25,.32,.380. [/quote]

However, the smallest and lightest examples of .32 are much smaller than the smallest/lightest .380 (by about half!)

Then again, we don't carry 4mm Kolibri just because it is tiny. IMO, .32 is better than other means of defense that do not need to be concealed or are equally small. Folks proficient with knives, staffs or other weapons, or those able to carry a .38/380 may well prefer other options.

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Old June 1, 2000, 01:53 PM   #36
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I have yet to encounter a situation where I couldn't conceal my MK9. If such a situation does come up, I'll be carrying my North American Arms Guardian chambered in .32ACP. Always carry the biggest caliber that you can conceal and fire accurately. For example, I can conceal a Kahr MK40 but for me, it has too much of a kick in such a small package to shoot accurately and I'm better off with the MK9. I can accurately shoot a Smith & Wesson 4013TSW but I can't conceal it with a bulge here or there since it accepts a double stack magazine and I'm better off with the 3913TSW since it is single stack. Again, carry the biggest caliber that you can conceal well and fire accurately.
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Old June 1, 2000, 02:44 PM   #37
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oleg Volk:
P32 can be hard to fire accurately but it is adequate to about 25ft, IMO.[/quote]

Or, as we like to say in the South, a carry gun only needs to be accurate across the length of a card table.

Regards,
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Hillsborough NC

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Old June 1, 2000, 02:51 PM   #38
Oleg Volk
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And speaking of those, wouldn't you hate to carry the original S&W .22 revolver that has approx. 22 short ballistics, if that! You could be fairly sure that an infection would set in IF the bullet penetrated far enough but a stopper it wasn't.
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Old June 1, 2000, 03:22 PM   #39
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My .02. My KT P-32 has in an M/D enterprises pocket holster has become an extremely convenient was to always carry (no worries about printing, etc.), and I probably rely on it too much. BUT, I don't feel it's underpowered for MOST situations (though of course you want to be prepared for Murphy's law). I wouldn't cary a .25, but feel the .32 is adequate in a pinch.

DO NOT use Glasers, MagSafes or other frangible stuff in these, because penetration is the main concern. You might go for expansion/fragmentation and end up getting the bounce-off-the-skull thing in a worse case scenario, which means you lose. So use ball ammo, IMO, and this WILL penetrate bone sufficiently, and therefore incapacitation is likely to occur, PROVIDED shot placement is good, as always.
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Old June 1, 2000, 03:31 PM   #40
Oleg Volk
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The superiority of ball in mousegun calibers over JHP/frangibles *and* fairly low recoil/blast may well be why gangbanger shootings are more lethal than expected. Moreover, they might not be as interested in instant stops as in eventual incapacitation.
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Old June 2, 2000, 11:11 AM   #41
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I have a Keltec p32 which I've had a few misfires with, however, I haven't put many rounds thru, so I am trying new ammo etc. to see if the problem straightens out. That said, I would suggest considering the smaller Taurus TI revolvers(I have 2) that are lightweight and pack a punch. I have both the ul ti model 85 and the ti 44 spc. With, corbon ammo, both of these are good stoppers, particularly the 44, and can be carried easily.

I do actually like glocks the best(I currently have a glock 29, and have a glock 33 on order(will be waiting a while). I plan to carry the 33 as much as possible when I get it. I love the glock trigger, and the reliability.

One other tip; carry a good knife(Microtech SOCUM or benchmade ACFK for example) for self defense in case something goes arwy with your gun, or you are jumped from behind. A good stab with a knife will disable any opponent.

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Old June 2, 2000, 05:16 PM   #42
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by riddleofsteel:
here is the slant from my view. Fud is right. there are now 9mm's and even .40 auto's no larger though somewhat more weighty than the typical .25,.32,.380.
[/quote]

If you can find a 9mm that's even close to the size of the Keltec P32, I'd sure like to know about it!


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Old June 2, 2000, 05:44 PM   #43
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by johnwill: If you can find a 9mm that's even close to the size of the Keltec P32, I'd sure like to know about it![/quote]LENGTH: Keltec P32 = 5.1" / Kahr MK9 = 5.3"
HEIGHT: Keltec P32 = 3.5" / Kahr MK9 = 4.0"
CALIBER: Keltec P32 = .32ACP / Kahr MK9 = 9mm Parabellum



[This message has been edited by FUD (edited June 02, 2000).]
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Old June 3, 2000, 01:57 AM   #44
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Keltec P32 (32 ACP)<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Blued $295 MSRP<LI>Hard Chromed $350 MSRP</UL>

Kahr MK9 (9x19)<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Matte Stainless $580 MSRP<LI>Duotone $749 MSRP<LI>Stainless Steel $631 MSRP</UL>

Bulgarian Makarov (9x18) approx $160<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>L 161.5mm (6.36 in) 1 in taller than the Kahr<LI>H 127mm (5 in) 1 in longer than the Kahr<LI>W 30.5mm (1.2 in)</UL> Handloaded 95 gr XTP bullets routinely exceed 900 fps and approach 200 ft lbs at muzzle. Corbon is hotter: 1050 fps and +220 ft lbs at muzzle. Not a 9mm Parabellum, but look at the price comparison!

[This message has been edited by sensop (edited June 03, 2000).]
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Old June 3, 2000, 09:59 AM   #45
Oleg Volk
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And the weight difference: P32 is about 8oz loaded, Kahr is 20-22 or so, methinks. Not to mention the thickness difference.

I did measure a Taurus 85UL and a Keltec P11...the pistol is smaller and lighter yet I think the revolver conceals better. Hmmm....
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Old June 3, 2000, 10:18 AM   #46
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FUD:
When applying for the CWL, it was spelled out with examples that being "punched around" is not sufficient cause to legally use a firearm -- fear of "death" or "grave bodily injury" is required.
[/quote]

Since people have died, and even more have been seriously injured by being "punched around", I think in many situations you'd have reasonable grounds to fear "grave bodily injury". It will also depend on the size and number of attackers. If a 100 pound woman is attacking a 200 pound man with her bare hands, you're probably not justified in shooting her.

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Old June 3, 2000, 10:26 AM   #47
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FUD:
Quote:
Originally posted by johnwill: If you can find a 9mm that's even close to the size of the Keltec P32, I'd sure like to know about it!
LENGTH: Keltec P32 = 5.1" / Kahr MK9 = 5.3"
HEIGHT: Keltec P32 = 3.5" / Kahr MK9 = 4.0"
CALIBER: Keltec P32 = .32ACP / Kahr MK9 = 9mm Parabellum
[/QUOTE]

I notice that you conveniently omitted two of the important specifications for easy concealment, thickness and weight. Toss them into the mix, and it becomes a different picture.
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Old June 4, 2000, 01:52 AM   #48
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johnwill, you originally made reference to SIZE and both are about the same size with the MK9 being slightly larger. With regard to thickness, they are both just under an inch thick. If you want to look at weight, the MK9 is more than three times heavier but that weight is needed to cushion the recoil of hot 9mm loads.

If you can conceal a P32, than you should be able to conceal a MK9 as well. If I'm going to carry a .32, then it's going to be my NAA Guardian which is significantly smaller than the P32.

I don't want to get into a flame war with anybody. Everybody makes decisions that are best for them. If a P32 fits your life-style better than a MK9 because maybe you like to carry it in your pocket and the weight of the MK9 will print while the weight of the P32 will not, then that's what you need to do.

My wife's uncle always wears a jacket even in 90+ degree temperature because he carries a full-size P14-45 and he laughs at my MK9 (with 7 rounds of 9mm) because of it's weaker stopping power when compared to his 15 rounds of .45ACP.

Each person does what is best for them. I'm not putting anyone down for their choices. I'm merely recommending (based on my experiences and the experiences of people that I know) that a person carries the largest caliber gun that they can shoot and conceal.

[This message has been edited by FUD (edited June 04, 2000).]
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Old June 4, 2000, 04:52 PM   #49
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FUD,

Well, actually, the difference is more than "slight" as to the width, the widest point on the Keltec P32 is .75", and on the Kahr it's .9". In addition, pretty much the whole Kahr is that width, it's much blockier than the Keltec.

As far as the weight required for the 9mm load, I don't disagree. I also didn't argue that the 9mm would not be a whole lot move effective if you have to use it, that should be obvious. However, a pocket pistol that weighs 24oz before you load it will require a tightening of the belt to avoid embarassing moments.

Of course you can conceal either of these guns if you work at it a little, but to say that's it's as easy to conceal and carry the Kahr over the Keltec is to ignore the facts.

As for your comment about a flame war, I hope you weren't applying that to me. Do you really think what I posted was a flame?
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Old June 4, 2000, 06:06 PM   #50
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I believe that it all depends on what is best for YOU. I have always let how I dress decide what I carry, and not the other way around. Sometimes it's a.380 pony, 5 shot wheel gun, .357 sig, 9mm, or .45.

To an experienced shooter, 32 is fine. Of course, 9mm on up to .45 is best. (Hell, I'd prefer to drop an anvil on them, but they're hard to conceal).

I know the little .32 sacrifices a lot of stopping power, so placement is very important.

Like a lot of us here, I can put 7 rounds from my Keltec P-32 in a 4" bull at 20 feet in just as many seconds. At 10 feet as fast as I can pull the trigger. That's all in the center of the chest, or in that empty area between the cheeks and hair line. For defense, that should be enough. (My little knife belt pouch holds an extra mag so that I need not be stingy).

I know that .32's have been killing people in Europe without too much trouble since the 1920's or 30's, so I guess it's OK for me.

In this caliber, however, I would not recommend Silvertips. If you fire two or three, then check the remaining rounds in the mag, you will see that the recoil often deforms the bullet heads of the remaining rounds. That means that they are no longer a hollow points and will no longer expand properly and therefore not do what they are designed to do. I like the Federal Hydra Shock, but to each his own. I have met people who stagger a few rounds of ball in the mag.

Posted by FUD:
LENGTH: Keltec P32 = 5.1" / Kahr MK9 = 5.3"
HEIGHT: Keltec P32 = 3.5" / Kahr MK9 = 4.0"
CALIBER: Keltec P32 = .32ACP / Kahr MK9 = 9mm Parabellum

Excellent point made here. But a sagging pocket or heavy outline is just as much a signal to a bad guy as a bulge.

But when Kahr finally realizes that they could make a fortune making the MK series in plastic, I will own the 9mm MK pistol with serial # 2!

Just my opinion.

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