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Old March 7, 2001, 07:24 PM   #1
Grapeshot
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Thinking about getting a home defense shotgun and don't know which to buy. Also, I'm wondering if the military features of the model 590 make it worth the extra money for a simple HD scenario.

Thanks!
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Old March 7, 2001, 08:13 PM   #2
Keith Duda
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I have a winchester defender and love it. I like the fiber optic type sight. I like the position of the safety since it matches my hunting shotgun. The 590 is more of a standard, but I think the 1300 does just fine.

Keith
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Old March 8, 2001, 10:08 PM   #3
Bam Bam
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winchester
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Old March 9, 2001, 06:19 AM   #4
Tom B
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I purchased a Winchester 1300 and Mossberg 500 on the same day. Later sold the Mossberg (reliability problems) and kept the Winchester.
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Old March 9, 2001, 07:25 AM   #5
Dave McC
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Any reliable shotgun of at least 2 shot capacity and of 20 ga or larger is a good HD tool.

Shoot a few different ones, find out which one you like, buy it and shoot it lots.

Forget the military lookalikes being more effective, at 3 AM nobody will be all that impressed.
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Old March 10, 2001, 12:40 AM   #6
gunmart
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to me its like comparing a yugo and a ford pinto.

they are both peices of crap..


buy a 870 or a nova and have a real shotgun that you can depend on ...
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Old March 11, 2001, 01:31 AM   #7
Grapeshot
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Hmmm, an 870 eh?

Well isn't Remington now crimping the end of the magazine tube so that mag. extensions can't be added? This limits the gun to what, 4 or 5 rounds?

Oh yeah, that makes it a truly wonderful choice. And of course, everything else is CRAP.

Well I won't be buying any Remingtons soon, since I hate the idea of a company that's ashamed at the thought that we might use their gun for legal self defense.

No, it's either a Mossberg or a 1300, and I'm leaning toward the 1300, since I've shot one of the Turkey guns and was very impressed.

My favorite HD shotgun is a double-barrel, but lately I've gotten the notion that a high-capacity shotgun, with a big ole' 8 shot mag, would be totally politically incorrect to own. Since the anti's would hate for me to buy it, well so now I just have to get one!

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Old March 11, 2001, 04:33 AM   #8
Dave McC
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Used 870s are common,and most do not have the PC dreck neither you nor I like.A used 870 is perhaps the best value for money on the market,and the aftermarket bells,whistles, fuzzy dice and fender skirts will definitely P!$$ off the Hoplophobes. They may even improve effectiveness,on occasion...

The 870s has not only an unmatched record for reliability and durability, but one that is not all that closely approached.

My HD 870 was built in November, 1950. I started shooting it around 1958, maybe 8000 rounds through it, many of them 00 and slugs. Still waiting on the very first malf. Still waiting with the other 4 870s here also.

Buying a USED 870 and then letting Remington know why you didn't buy a new one may be the best way to get a message across. as well as acquiring one great shotgun.

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Old March 11, 2001, 04:13 PM   #9
Valdez
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Most Mossberg defenders will cite the ergonomics as being superior, though I'm not that knowledgable about the Winchester control locations. The Mossberg safety is up top where it is accessibly with the thumb of either hand. The slide release is behind the trigger guard and the lifter stays up making reloading easier.

On the other hand, 870s, the concensus seems, have a better reputation for durability and reliability having a heavier receiver though with a crossbolt safety and a slide release in front of the trigger guard.

Where are the controls on the Winchester?

I've had both 870s and 500s and never had a failure with either though I've hardly given them enough hard use to be an expert in this area.

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Old March 11, 2001, 05:00 PM   #10
gunmart
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the location of the safty of the moss is certainly in the right place and is better tactically.however,the part is poorly designed and is usually the first thing to go on the moss series..the second is the carrier..

all the respected trainers that i have talked to have told me they have never seen a moss 500 or win def make it through a class..
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Old March 11, 2001, 05:26 PM   #11
Captain Bligh
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Grapeshot, do you really think you're gonna need more than five rounds of 00 buck in a home defense situation? If so you either need (a) a side saddle or (b) more time at the range. The 870 carries 4 more rounds than I expect to need in a home defense situation.

<grin>
RJ
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Old March 11, 2001, 05:54 PM   #12
Battler
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The larger magazine is useful even with more rounds - if you only stuff it with 4 (instead of 7) the mag spring only compresses to half of its unloaded length.

(and you DO always have the option of stuffing the rest in anyway)


Battler.
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Old March 11, 2001, 06:11 PM   #13
Doc Hudson
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Mossberg M-500

I've used Mossberg shotguns for over twenty-five years. The only malfunction I've ever had was when I got a bad case of buckfever and short-shucked the action.

I have never had a part to break on a Mossberg and my fifteen year old Mossberg Riot gun will still shoot with the best of them. It still locks up tight also.

FWIW, a co-worker once bought a Remington M-870 just a few days before dove season opened. He took it to a major dove shoot opening day. The fool probably shot nearly a case of shells. By the end of the day, he could hold the shotgun vertical by the wrist, hit the slide release and thrust upward and open the action. Pulling down briskly would close the action and chamber a shell. I did it myself so I know he was not just pulling my leg.

Tell me that is the way a good shotgun is supposed to work. Tell me that is a good example of Remington longevity.

Doc Hudson
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Old March 11, 2001, 06:35 PM   #14
Al Thompson
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Doc, I actually think that's great. Wish mine would do that.

Giz
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Old March 11, 2001, 07:00 PM   #15
Grapeshot
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hmmm ... professional trainers eh?

What did the professional trainers think of the 590, since they didn't like the 500?

And why didn't they like the Defender?

BTW, I greatly appreciate the input, guys.
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Old March 11, 2001, 07:08 PM   #16
gunmart
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590 has a litter better action but same problem with the safty.

i hear a lot of people that have had good success with thier mossys but i hear a lot more people complaining about them.when i had my shop the # 1 worked on shotgun was the mossy....# 2 was the rem 1100..
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Old March 11, 2001, 07:16 PM   #17
Grapeshot
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interestingly,

when looking through the archives here there seemed to be a few people trying to get rid of their 590's - perhaps they are bought more as a status symbol than for real use?

Or perhaps people just tire of a combat shotgun, since they can't hunt with it.
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Old March 11, 2001, 11:11 PM   #18
gunmart
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grapeshot,maybe a little more info on the mossys will help..

take a look internally at both the remington and mossy.

there is a lot of differnce in the way they are made.
mossy uses very cheap cast parts where remington uses alot of machined steel.

i have been discouraged about remington and there latest quest for a safer shotgun.i would not own a remington with the keylock safty even if they have improved and fixed them.

buy a used one and send a message to remington!!!

as for the crimped magazine tube.dont sweat that.a tac shotgun does not need alot of capacity and further more it throws off the natural balance and feel of it so dont clutter it up and keep it simple.if you must the little dents can be removed with a dremel tool or a dent tube remover available from brownells.

as for the winchester the biggest problem i see with them it the ejector slipping out for place.if you dont get it in there just so it will slip out and lock up your hole gun.it is a very poor design.

also on the winchester is that it is just like the nova.the saftey is forward of the trigger gaurd.if you have no experiance with shotguns this will be no big deal but for me its a real pain.

dollar for dallar the nova is a workhorse of a shotgun.many people are getting them in the hunting blinds and in the tac world and having good results.if i was not so set in my ways i would buy one....
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Old March 12, 2001, 06:34 AM   #19
Dave McC
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Grapeshot, my tactical 870s make great hunting shotguns, the freezer still has plenty of venison in it.

A riot bbled, bead sighted 870 makes one H*lluva quail gun too.

Admittedly, a 10 lb Loudenboomer SP Mag with GR sights and bayonet is heavy toting in the woods, but a generic short bbled shotgun does OK for almost anything, assuming load,choke and shooter are up to it.
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Old March 12, 2001, 10:55 AM   #20
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gunmart - you gotta admit that a post like your first one is gonna get some people's dander up.

I've owned both an 870 with several different barrels, and now I own the 1300 Defender. I admit that the 870 I had was a little better quality. But so far I love my 1300. I considered both the HD 870 and 1300 when I bought the 1300. But the Winchester narrowly won out because of a couple of features it had over the Remington. And the main one was the 8 shell capacity. See, I didn't just buy it for home defense. I bought it for grizzly bear defense. I bought it for a serious defense weapon in any situation. And if I'm in the process of defending myself, I'm gonna feel better if I have 8 shots in the tube, than 4 or 5.

I have no opinion of the Mossberg. These things are inexpensive, I don't expect them to rival O/U's in terms of quality. But if I was in a life and death situation, I want more shots...
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Old March 12, 2001, 05:44 PM   #21
Brooks
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Russian Pump

EEA is starting to advertise the Russian IZH 133 pump which was reviewed in the G&A this month--(over all 3 stars).

List price is $299 and I'll bet you will get them for less. They can take 3 1/2" shells interchangably and have 18 1/2" and 20" barrels.

Do you think these Russian shotguns, semi-autos and pump, will have wide acceptance for work horse and HD use?
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Old March 13, 2001, 08:34 AM   #22
Dave McC
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Doc, while I don't do it often, one of mine will do exactly that. Any pump that smooth is a joy to own.The rest of my 870s are getting there through work polishing(G)...

Brooks, here's my take on foreign, low priced shotguns.

I'm not as down on Russian guns as the ChiCom ones, but after going through a lot of hassle with a LLama pistol many years ago,I'm less than enthused about owning anything that might have to cross oceans for warranty work. Parts may be hard to obtain also.

For less than $299, one should be able to pick out a number of good, used, US made shotguns, including 870s, Model 37s etc. And while these may be out of warranty, so little goes wrong with them that risk is near zero for problems.
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Old March 14, 2001, 11:27 AM   #23
General Tso
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I've owned all 3 and can't say any of them were bad. The only issue I ever had with any of them was infrequent short stroking which was my fault and that was with my Rem 870 HD (with the stupid mag tube detents).

Of the 3 I actually think the Winchester had the slickest action of the ones I owned, possibily due to the rotary bolt. It seemed the easiest to shoot fast although again, none were bad.

A couple of things to keep in mind on the Mossberg 590's:

- the military 590A1's are built a little sturdier than the commercial 590's. They have a heavier barrel (FWIW), a steel safety and an aluminum trigger gaurd whereas the commercial 500's and 590's have plastic trigger gaurds and safetys.

- the 590's also beat out the Remington and Winchester in the military trials being the only pumpgun to meet of exceed the gov test criteria (3,000 rounds without a malfunction I believe it was?). It's the currently purchased and issued shotgun at least until the semi-auto Benelli M1014's work thier way into service. there are still 870's and Winchesters in inventory but all purchases in recent years have been of 590's.

In Winchester's, check out thier "Camp Defender" model. Interesting setup IMO. 22" barrel with screw in choke tubes, rifle sights, synthetic stocks and matte finish and a 7 shot mag tube. Cost is only about $250 and if it worked as well as my last Defender I wouldn't have any gripes with it at all.

http://www.winchester-guns.com/prodi...f/13cmpdef.htm

Keep in mind too that, FWIW, FN markets the Winchester 1300's under the FN name in thier law enforcement line. Again, a nice setup IMO, 18" barrel, 7 shot tube, rifle sights and screw in choke tubes.


http://www.fnmfg.com/lawenf/shotgun/shotmain.htm


I'm sorta in a similar boat as you, I have an HD shotgun (the 870) but would like to get something with a full length mag tube (for no other reason other than I want one, I'll still probably use the 870 as my house gun). I've been kicking it around for a while and am finally ready to buy and my choice is down to either a 590A1 or a Benelli Nova Special Purpose with a mag tube extension (7+1 capacity). One bonus the 590 does have when it comes to pi$$ing off the anti's is the bayonet lug. Nothing gets Chucky Schumer and his ilk more worked up than an "evil" miltary feature .

In the end though Dave's probably got the best advice: shoot a variety of stuff and get what you like best as long as it's reliable. We're all going to have individual prejudices and preferences but you're the one who's going to actually end up with the shotgun so get what you're most comfortable with.
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Old March 14, 2001, 11:31 AM   #24
Dave McC
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Amen, General, good to see you back.

And, lest we forget, it's still 10% shotgun, 90% shooter...
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Old March 14, 2001, 12:33 PM   #25
Grapeshot
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Wow, thanks General!

I hadn't really considered the Camp Defender, but I'll chekc it out.

I'm leaning toward a Winchester Defender in 20 guage - any thoughts on a 20 for defense? The reason is, I'm a wimp. Well, actually, I'm just a small-statured person at 5'7" and the 12 guages just feel huge to me. I'm thinking a 20 guage Defender would be a physically more compact weapon. Even if not, it would at least kick a lot less.

Do they make buckshot for 20 guage? What load for defense?
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