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Old February 25, 2001, 11:39 PM   #1
tuc22
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Without going into detail or describing actual techniques, who here can say with total confidence that they have a method to kill an attacker (if necessary) with their bare hands? (must be a quick, decisive skill) Do you also think that this is a necessary skill since you are already in the practice of being armed with firearms and knives?
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Old February 26, 2001, 06:15 AM   #2
The Observer
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I can say confidently that I can kill a person with my barehand, not by punching but using a locking techique like a "tiger claw" grabbing to the throat. This needs a strong fingers and locking the opponent to immobilize him.

I'll use this as a last resort also if I am not armed with firearm or knife. That is the reason why I keep away of fighting if possible because even in barehandf fight if we intend to kill one then we could do it by our barehands.

Another thing, we can use our Aikido or judo technique to throw someone by holding both hands or feet and whip him on the ground or to a conrete pavement or post.

There are many ways to kill using barehand in a surgical way.

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Old February 26, 2001, 11:39 AM   #3
Cheapo
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There's a certain grappling technique I have successfully used in the past to subdue an individual who was noticably larger than I was at the time.

He's even bigger and stronger, proportionately, now.

Not too horribly quick, but rather decisive if no third party is there to pluck you off...

Never had opportunity to test any of the disabling blows (I really like elbows). Successful prevention. :-)
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Old February 26, 2001, 03:29 PM   #4
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-edited- reread the first post and was too specific.


Several ways involving slams and strikes from superior positions (I don't know Dim Mak, so will have to leave it to barbarian brutality). One very effective submission, but will take longer than the others.


I do not think these are necessary or intentionally learned skills... they seem to be normal techniques that are taken to an extreme. I would absolutely never intend to go with this level of force as it usually involves a 1x1 fight.

With multiple opponents, I don't think there will be time for multiple blows, submissions, etc, so it's time to kick to the stones, eyegouge and get outta dodge... more to maim than kill.
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Old February 26, 2001, 03:58 PM   #5
Spectre
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We may be forced to go without external weapons, or be in confrontation without time to present them. Therefore, it makes sense to be able to do what one must without benefit of tools.

There are many unarmed ways to kill, and knowing at least one is no major feat.
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Old February 26, 2001, 07:54 PM   #6
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I know of several techniques all combat proven.

Given the way that most fights go, you never know what might happen, you may not have a firearm, or might be out of ammo, you don't have a knife, but someone is intent on killing you.

A situation like that could happen at any time or it could never happen. Take the Boy Scout creedo, "always be prepared"
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Old February 27, 2001, 09:36 PM   #7
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Yes, there are numerous techniques that can kill without using weapons other than one's own body parts. They usually involve strikes against vital points, particularly around the throat or the neck, choking techniques or some combination thereof (particularly chokes that crush the larynx at the same time).

Are they necessary? That depends on what one does for living, where one lives and a myriad of other factors. For a vast majority of self-defense minded civilian folks, I don't think they are necessary.

However, I think that what one should look for are not techniques that can kill, but ones that will most effectively STOP the aggressor. Why crush the larynx, when you can compress the carotid artery and render the attacker unconscious? There are psychological, legal and other considerations that make "stopping" more important than necessarily "killing."

Obviously having weapons (guns or knives) make things "more equal." Yet, despite one's best efforts, one cannot be armed always. Some time ago, I read an interesting case presented in the "American Guardian." A pistol-armed home owner confronted a burglar at night, but a struggle ensued before he can get off a shot. The pistol was dropped. The burglar got on top of the home owner (mounted him) and started to choke the home owner. The latter was able to muster some strength and choke the burglar back, push him off and retrieve his gun.

Now, that particular home owner was lucky. He was apparently stronger and bigger than the burglar and was able to overpower the thug. Unfortunately, that may not always be the case for most folks.

There are those who claim that they will always be with a weapon (knife, gun, key chain, yada, yada). Certainly one should always endeavor to use a weapons or an improvised weapon in a self-defense situation. But a human being is not a machine and cannot always be on guard and may be disarmed before he can react. For that reason alone, I think that a complete "self-defense" system ought to include unarmed self-defense techniques.

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Old February 27, 2001, 11:15 PM   #8
spacepirate
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JEET KUNE DO

I can say, with total confidance, that I can kill a man in less than 10 seconds with one blow. --ESR
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Old February 27, 2001, 11:52 PM   #9
guerilla1138
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If I could do you think I would let the whole world know?

Lets just say this, if I had to I feel I have a fair chance, but its nothing I plan or train for.
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Old February 28, 2001, 08:30 AM   #10
Joe Demko
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Speaking as an anatomy/physiology instructor who has also trained in the martial arts, this thread is a just a lot of chest-beating and posturing. There are numerous spots on the human body that are incapacitating or lethal when stuck a blow of sufficient force or compressed. None of them are any great secret nor do many of them require intense training in technique to use. So let's not sit around here making cryptic references to all the dark arts of death we studied under Grandmaster Floyd (or whomever), shall we?
Let this thread die, guys.
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Old February 28, 2001, 01:59 PM   #11
tuc22
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Carrying a gun requires confidence, having a plan to defend or retreat requires confidence, and to engage an opponent in a life or death struggle requires total committment. Don't, for one moment, believe that causing death isn't part of the program you signed on to when you began carrying around your guns and knives, it is. Having a tool that violently alters human anatomy to the extent that it causes major injury or death does not relieve your hands of the act. Disarmed or unarmed there may be the time when you are faced with the possibility of an attacker killing you. Yes, I am committed to surviving and using my bare hands, even if it means I have to kill by striking or permanently destroying vital organs. I am only a student, not an expert but I can tell who the chest beating comes from. This thread has merit if it accepts the responsibility of lethal force rather than separating the know-it-alls from the know-nothings.
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Old March 1, 2001, 01:03 AM   #12
SB
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The first part of the question sounds like an invitation to whip out mine and see who's bigger. No thanks.

That being said though, I know a few things that might fit in those category. Now, although no one has yet to die under these conditions per se, let's just say you don't want to be near me after I go through a couple of spicy bean burritos!

Don't say I didn't warn ya!
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Old March 1, 2001, 06:13 PM   #13
LASur5r
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Been there used it to non-lethal level

Used stand up jiujitsu strangles and "sleeper" holds in the street against non-cooperative street fighters.
Didn't want to go to next level....main purpose was to neutralize threat.
Got to use it in military...still didn't get to use it to the highest level...needed live cooperative talking Charles for interviews...that was our orders. Liked to use the sap better.
There's no secret to it guys...most schools don't teach this stuff anymore not because it's a "secret" art...it's because of civil liability and insurance coverage that many U.S. schools gave it up.
In the 60's there were many blackbelts who were reviving tournament fighters who were knocked out. If we learned to knock someone out, we were expected to revive them too.
As far as the sap, we had MP's use oak batons with a lead core. Prisoners that I knew used soap bars in a sock. Knocking guys out wasn't such a big deal...then if a person was out...they're at the mercy of the guy who put them out.
Is that what you wanted?

I don't where the chest pounding is?????Whoo haahh??? Me Tarzan?
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Old March 1, 2001, 07:54 PM   #14
Skorzeny
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Golgo-13:

Indeed, the so-called "lethal" spots (i.e. ways to incapacitate another human being) are not a secret.

However, where "intense" training becomes necessary is how to set up your opponent for an appropriate blow or a technique in a realistic manner.

For example, in my earlier example off crushing the larynx, it is one thing to punch someone's larynx while that person stands immobile and quite another to do it when that person is "wrestling" with you or exchanging blows with you.

Having the mechanical knowledge is not enough. You must be able to perform when RESISTANCE is encountered. That only comes from practice (training) and experience (fights or contests).

Let's put it this way: using a basketball analogy, it is one thing to know the mechanics of how to shoot the free throws, but it's quite another to have enough practice to be able to actually make the shots. It is STILL something else to be able to make baskets in the game while someone actually guards you!

It's foolish to think that just because you understand the mechanics of how to shoot a basketball, you can actually play basketball. That comes from practice and experience. Self-defense techniques are the same.

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Old March 2, 2001, 05:32 AM   #15
nbk2000
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Isn't it true that it's much easier to kill a person bare-handed than to subdue them, especially during a struggle? A blade hand to the throat is much easier to apply than a one hand cartoid choke that takes 10 seconds to render the victim unconcious. A thumb through the eye is easier than a nerve strike that will immobilze. Yada yada.

Any idiot can kill without even meaning to (see it on the news all the time), but it takes skill to knock someone out without permanent harm.
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Old March 2, 2001, 07:50 AM   #16
Joe Demko
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"Without going into detail or describing actual techniques, who here can say with total confidence that they have a method to kill an attacker (if necessary) with their bare hands? (must be a quick, decisive skill)"

I stand by my original assessment of this question. It isn't an invitation for discussion of training techniques or knowledge vs. application. In fact, those who wanted to answer the question could have answered with a simple yes or no. I agree with SB that this part of the question, at least, is an invitation to brag about whose is bigger. With that, I end my participation in this thread since I can't very well keep contributing to a thread I think should die. Regards, gentlemen.

Golgo-13
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Old March 2, 2001, 08:01 AM   #17
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Here's a better question, how do you prepare yourself so that when put into a tight spot adrenaline doesn't freeze up your body ? I've been in a number of situations where once the adrenaline kicks in my body refuses to do what it is capable of. My knees buckle, my arms become heavy, everything feels slow and sluggish, vision gets fuzzy. Jeet Kune Do, Me Krab ho...all that stuff is inneffective unless you can remain calm and comfortable in a violent encounter. seriously, I've trained in a number of martial arts, I've been in a number of encounters on and off the street, yet, its impossible for me to control the effects of adrenaline and heart rate. Its ****** me off to the point I want to have the damn adrenal glands removed. All they've done is make all my training and capability inneffective. Damn adrenal glands ! No amount of training will make you comfortable in a violent situationm. You either learn to adapt or you learn to run, its that simple. In the mean time, any of you know how to control the adverse affects of adrenaline ? Is their a steroid or something else I can take ?
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Old March 2, 2001, 11:33 AM   #18
ERRainman
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The only way to control the adrenal response is to condition one's self to work with the added energy. Conditioning to such an automatic response is not easily achieved. It takes it's toll after a while. Just ask the Old West gunfighters - how many of them lived to a ripe old age?

To control your adrenal response, try sprinting a couple of hundred yards before you get to the mat with your sparring partner. Or, set up a week's worth of training at someplace where you know an attack will result, without knowing from whom or from where. Planned attacks by a teacher, fellow student(s), or hired goon(s) are always good tests of the true level of training. We once used simmunitions at a week-long training class to determine our awareness and assessment of level of threat and response times. Does wonders for point-and-shoot training.

A good friend of mine travels twice a year to train with his Sensei just for that purpose - to get his A** kicked when he least expects it. If that won't set your adrenal response into overdrive, nothing will. He takes 2 weeks off for each trip - one for training and one for recuperating after the trip.

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Old March 2, 2001, 03:51 PM   #19
Skorzeny
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nbk2000:

Carotid chokes are best done from behind (preferably from backmount) with two arms (not hands) with the crook of the elbow of one of the arms on the front of the throat (with the other arm compressing from the back of the neck).

When it is done correctly, it is "one thousand one, two thousand two, three thousand... out..."

Obviously, you need to learn to maneuver yourself to the opponent's back (something that is taught in wrestling, Judo, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and Sambo among others).

Simply walking up to someone and attempting to thumb his eyes does NOT work, because if he is able to move body (or just the head) even an inch or two, you will miss.

What really needs pratice, training and knowledge is learning the art of setting up the opponent for the coup de grace, whether it is a eye gouge, choke, punch, etc.

ATeaM:

You sure CAN learn to control your adrenaline! The nexus between voluntary and involuntary functions of the body is proper BREATH CONTROL! Deep inhalations and exhalations will be produce a lower heart rate and muscle relaxation even in beginners. Adrenaline will give you a quick boost of strength, but it will exhaust you quickly and degrade your motor skills (and give you tunnel vision, too). It is better to remain relaxed, so that you can think clearly and make smooth movements. Leave the "mad rush" to someone who is untrained and unskilled (and watch how fast he "gasses out").

In addition, taking part in combative contests (Muay Thai match, grappling match, NHB match, etc.) or free sparring where the danger of pain or injury exists is a good way to condition your nerves.

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu
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Old March 2, 2001, 05:37 PM   #20
LASur5r
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Breathe

What Skorzeny said.

Hey Skorzeny, miss your input...been hanging out on another Website.
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