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Old February 20, 2001, 04:18 AM   #1
Blue Duck357
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With nomex suit donned for my protection and knowing I'm gonna get laughed out of the room I gotta say it. Yet again today I passed on a Bushmaster because I've got an M1 Carbine and can't see any use for the AR as pretty as it is. Now for target shooting or varminting I gotta say the AR whips the carbine to pieces but I'm talking about as a defense rifle.

The little M1 carbine loses the long range contest but is accurate enough for engaging in "social conflicts" to 200 yards which is way beyond what I can even imagine a self defense scenario playing out at. I won't get into the .223's stopping power (I think it should be fine with SP ammunition) but theres nothing wrong with the carbine either. At worst it's about equal to a super hot +p+ 357 round fired out of a loooonnng barreled revolver (1900 fps muzzel). Even at 200 yards it's still moving at well over 1300 FPS so even there it should hit about like a regular 357 110 grain load at point blank range (yeah I know theirs a caliber differnce of .05, but this it just to get the feel of the round). Jim Cirillo of the NYPD stake out squad used a M1 Carbine with soft points and is quoted as saying it was the ONLY weapon (including the 12 gauge shotgun with both slugs and buckshot) that stopped everybody he hit with it right there with one shot. Once again I'll give the AR the benfit of the doubt and say it can be a reliable weapon, but nearly every carbine I've shot was reliable, even though most recieved minimal cleaning and care. The carbines also a bit lighter than most AR's with all the little do-hickies, bells and whisltles attached and a good one will set you back about half as much as a good AR. I'm not sure how subjective this is but I think most people will find the carbine points quicker, recoils less, and has less muzzel blast leading to better shooting. What's not too love?

I'm really not trying to flame up the AR15 crowd I "sort of" like the AR, but I'm getting kind of tired of always being asked when I'm going to get my "Black Rifle" like everybody else. Well I'm gonna get it when someone explains why it beats my current "mid-range" equipment that seems to fill my need.

Their are a lot of folks out there more knowledgable about this than me so if I'm off my rocker let me know what I'm missing.

Thanks, Blue Duck

[Edited by Blue Duck357 on 02-20-2001 at 01:32 PM]
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Old February 20, 2001, 05:05 AM   #2
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well i will say it like this, i love the AR15 and it has been 100% reliable for me, and it's a fun Rifle to shoot. but if i had to go into combat i would go with the U.S. Carbine Caliber .30 M1, it's light, it's accurate to 200 250-yards and that is well with in the needs of most combat, and the .30-Carbine round can stop a man with one round if you hit him right. but thats the same as the .223 from an AR15. so over all the M1-Carbine is the best out of the two. now if you were looking at it like a Military Rifle you would need to have the M4, M4A1, Carbins vs. the M1, M2, Carbines. and in that i would go with the M2-Carbine, it would be a real good Carbine for CQC and it would be a good overall Defense Rifle/Carbine to.
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Old February 20, 2001, 06:40 AM   #3
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Clint Smith said the best home defense weapon is an AR type rifle w/a short barrel.American Handgunner did a test on home defense weapons in the March issue.They concluded that an AR-15 w/16" barrel and hollowpoints will stop an average framed male in his place and will not exit his body.My main concern with home defense rifles is if i shoot the BG, will my neigbor's kid also get shot if the bullet exits the BG?Pick this month's issue of AH and check out the artical...very interesting.
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Old February 20, 2001, 07:22 AM   #4
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Oh- well, if Clint Smith said...

I let myself be convinced that I "needed" an AR for my urban defense needs. A year and a half later, I got the M1 Carbine I'd always wanted, and am selling the AR. The M1 Carbine is the "package" the AR should have been, and I prefer the .30 Carbine round to the .223. Not to mention, I paid less than half for a brand new IAI M1 Carb than I did for a used Colt AR15A2!
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Old February 20, 2001, 08:43 AM   #5
Art Eatman
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A lot of the advice on home defense weaponry seems to be based on scenarios of the Mongol Horde sweeping through a neighborhood, committing all manner of horribles. I have difficulty with this idea.

Seems to me that if you are legally in the right in using deadly force for your survival in your home area, close range is most likely. A small number--typically three or less--of people will be of concern to you.

I think one should concentrate on the skill to deal with multiple targets at varying ranges (five feet to twenty yards, for instance) at different angles. Multiple center-of-mass hits from a GI Carbine should be as effective as from most other weaponry.

Choice of weapon is less important than your planning for strategy and tactics, and developing the mindset and physical skills to use whatever you choose.

I'd come close to betting real money that home defense has been successful with .22 rimfires and single-shot shotguns as often as with any other weapons.

FWIW, Art
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Old February 20, 2001, 09:19 AM   #6
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''I'd come close to betting real money that home defense has been successful with .22 rimfires and single-shot shotguns as often as with any other weapons.''.......... if that ain't the truth probably nothing is then. I promise you this if you would bet real money Art the odds of you winning would be better than at a loose slot machine . If push came to shove my favorite HD weapon would be the 12 gauge shotgun pushing either 00 or #1 buck. I realize that at HD ranges it will not spread more than an inch or two, so hitting is no easier than with a rifle, but for sheer stopping power its hard to beat. It will make that anemic carbine round sit down and cry, and it is even better than the 5.56 with a fragmenting type bullet, and probably has more sheer shocking power at close range than even a 7.62MM or 30-06 would put on a man type target. The last 2 rounds would just wizz right on through at HD ranges.
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Old February 20, 2001, 11:21 AM   #7
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It would do well to read John George's Shots Fired in Anger. My own feeling is that the 30 Carbine is good for head shots. Absent that, unless it fired the 22 caliber Spitfire round (30 carbine necked down to 22), I'd go for the AR first.
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Old February 20, 2001, 11:27 AM   #8
George Hill
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I would never let a gunrag tell me what to carry or choose.
It was the gunrags that said the Vector CP-1 was a good pistol. It was the gunrags that have promoted many just plain horrible pistols and tried to sell them as great.
Come on... With the exception of GUN TEST, have you ever read a write up on a pistol where the editor ripped on the gun? Where he or she tore it apart?
Nope. Because the gunrags and the editors get paid by the makers to verbally polish the item and sweeten the deal.
The CP-1? Please, it was horrid! Did the writer say it was bad? No. Did he mention the fact that it jammed up on him so bad he had to send it back to the factory? Yes - he did mention that... but was it the gun's fault? No? Was it a poor execution of a poor design? Not in that article!

To me - the AR-15 is JUST LIKE the Vector CP-1. I'ld take an M1 Carbine and be very pleased with it.
Clint Smith is a smart guy - he has some money to his name as well. I bet you his ARs are far from stock. I bet you there is a great deal of custom smithing inside. I know its possible to make the AR function - I used one. But it took not a gunsmith - but an freaking ARTISAN gunsmith to detail polish and hone every internal friction bearing surface... It took a great deal of adjusting and tuning the gas ports, extractors and everything else... all because the unit's armorer was determined that his weapons would NEVER fail the men that trusted him to make them work. He would stay up all night detail stripping every weapon that was going out. He went the extra mile. That my friends is RARE. If you have a smith like that - then sure - you can have a good AR.

Now, the M1 deserves a better look. I know you guys love to disagree with me on principle - but dont take my word for it:
http://www.wwa.com/~dvelleux/m1carb.html
http://home.att.net/~ra-carbines/history.html
http://www.fulton-armory.com/M1CarbReview.htm
http://www.prairienet.org/guns/arms/m1.htm
http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/SmallArms/m1carbin.htm

You want to know about the M1 - those are the places to go look.
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Old February 20, 2001, 11:37 AM   #9
Blue Duck357
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4V50, are the incidents described in the book based on soft nose/hollow point bullets or FMJ? I think there's a big difference between expanding bullets and FMJ in how effective the carbine can be. Still that said, Audie murphy used his carbine with FMJ to his satisfaction, others used FMJ with less good results apparently, sound's kind of like the .223 some say it works others say it does not. But I've yet to hear anyone bad mouth the carbine with either hollowpoints or soft nose rounds in a human target.

Regards, Blue Duck
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Old February 20, 2001, 12:45 PM   #10
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I'm not alone! After I got my M-1 carbine I kept looking at my AR-15 and wondering why I needed it. so I sold it, and the carbine has taken its place.

Didn't realize others had come to the same conclusion...

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Old February 20, 2001, 12:53 PM   #11
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The best of both worlds?

The gun many love to hate: the Mini-14. What is it but an M1 carbine in .223 caliber?
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Old February 20, 2001, 01:10 PM   #12
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I love my M1 Carbine. I think I only saved one target from my initial range session: a paper plate with a smiley face drawn in black marker. It was a single round, offhand, at 15 yards. It impacted 1/4" away from the top of the nose, which was my aiming point. I'll take that...Byron (Spartacus) also shot a ridiculously small group, offhand, at a similar distance- rapid fire.

I think it was Chuck Karwan that wagered many of the tales of woeful stopping power from the .30 Carbine were due to GI's using M2's (full auto) to miss a lot.

I think the little carbine is much, much, much more reliable, inherently, than an AR. I like mine, and can shoot it at least as fast and well as I could my AR. And it doesn't go "sproing!"
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Old February 20, 2001, 01:50 PM   #13
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If you may have to penetrate a vest, you will want something in 223Rem. Otherwise, the 30 Carbine would make a great defensive round.
 
Old February 20, 2001, 01:59 PM   #14
Oleg Volk
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I like the carbine because it points so fast. It is easier to go prone with it. It is simple (though the safety is unintuitive...but I leave safeties off anyhow, too used to Glocks). I doubt it would do well on body armor but all other jobs it would do well.

Funny that the carbine and a shortie Garand handle better for me than guns superior on paper (FAL, AK, AR). 223 has the advantage of flatter trajectory and better vest penetration but 30 carbine would actually penetrate other types of cover better (heavier ball).
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Old February 20, 2001, 02:25 PM   #15
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Even if someone is wearing body armor (Level IIIA without plates) they would still get the crap knocked out of them if hit by a 30 carbine round... They would just get up, that is all....

I would like to get a M1 Carbine someday... If only I had the money to afford something other than a supersoaker! ugh!
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Old February 20, 2001, 02:25 PM   #16
El Rojo
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The poor man's AR.

I have always thought of my M1 Carbine as the poor man's AR 15. So I bought two. One is a collector, the other is a shooter with a scope mount and red dot sight on the top. Magazines are cheap and plentiful. Overall a good gun.
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Old February 20, 2001, 02:26 PM   #17
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Can you buy one for me too pleeeeease!!!!
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Old February 20, 2001, 02:53 PM   #18
Steve Smith
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WHAT YOU NEED...

Is one of these:

http://www.fnfal.com/forums/Forum1/HTML/006767.html

Small, powerful, and reliable!
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Old February 20, 2001, 03:39 PM   #19
Dr.Rob
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That M1 Carbine has always been sort of the "mouse gun" of rifles fired in anger.. but that doesn't mean they don't work. Yeah they are light wieght, more like a 22 than a 'rifle'. yes they are simple. Yes magazines are cheap. Most places don't even call them 'assault rifles'. There are a number of good reasons I can think of to get one or hold onto the one you have.

On the negative side, compared to most rifles its not that impressive, compared to other "carbines" firing pistol rounds its not bad at all, esp. in soft point loads. I wouldn't hunt deer with it unless I had to, but I wouldn't hunt deer with a 223 either. Ammo cost is high compared to 223 or 7.62 x 39 and the guns themselves are going up in price all the time.

The SKS remains the cheapest "carbine" out there to own and shoot compared to others and if you cant afford an M1 carbine/AK/AR/FAL its the best way to go next to a traditional 'carbine' like a winchester model 94 in 357 mag.
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Old February 20, 2001, 05:09 PM   #20
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Merrill's Marauders and General Patton liked the M1 Carbine very well. The Marauders primary weapon was the M1 Carbine and I think they did a lot of damage with it during their little trip in Japanese territory.
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Old February 20, 2001, 05:44 PM   #21
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In my night stand drawer w/ the two pistols there sit a mag for my Ar and one for my IAI carbine, both charged up. Yhe carbine is currently standing guard in the corner w/ the AR locked away. I still feel confident in either one since both function perfectly and I handle both reasonably well.

To the AR's advantages, it has higher capacity, armor penetrating ability, a nice ACOG for rapid low-light sight picture and the look of a very serious piece of hardware should looks scare anyone off.

In favor of the M-1, it points well, even more compact than the AR for in the house, easy follow-up shoots, no AW looks when the cops show up or the DA tries to nail your ass to the wall.
I'll take either.
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Old February 20, 2001, 06:36 PM   #22
George Hill
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Dr Rob has some good insight, as always.

The SKS may indeed be a better carbine but I dont like it... Something about it turns me off.
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Old February 20, 2001, 07:16 PM   #23
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The .30 caliber Carbine is effective with GI ball ammunition at close range. It should be much better with modern hollow points or soft points. If you like the weapon don't worry it will do the job for you.
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Old February 20, 2001, 08:20 PM   #24
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While I have two M1 Carbines, and I love the little guns to death, I'd reach for my Car-15 for serious social work. It's hard to imagine much argument that the .223 is the more potent round, and the Car-15 is also a very handy little gun. I wouldn't be upset if I had to use one of the M1 Carbines in a defensive role, but given the choice, it would be the second choice to the Car-15.

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Old February 20, 2001, 08:38 PM   #25
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Let me say first I like the M-1 carbine its a fun gun to shoot I've had one for years only problem I ever had was a slamfire which blew the operating rod handle off and blew the mag out etc. It was an attention getter. But the M-1 Carbine was to replace the 45 ACP side arm for rear area troops or those with crew served weapons. Its stopping power (what ever that that means does not compare to a 5.56 NATO round). If I had the choice between a 357 mag. 45 ACP etc. handgun over the carbine I'd take the carbine. Reason is the shoulder fired aiming platform. My theroy is if you know you're going to a gun fight TAKE A RIFLE.

I've use an issue M-16 in combat (no special tuning) and It fired everytime the trigger was pulled. I've worked with Ruff Puffs that carried the carbine wounds from the M-193 ball were much worse from the M-16.

From the book Battle Analysis of Infantry Weapons (Korean War) Page 49. The weapon lacks "power". It is "too delicate". Its day-to-day opeation is "too variable" accordin to changes in the weather. It was more dependable when is was semi-automatic. These are a few of the criticisms voiced by troops who have used the carbine Korean opeations. The anvil chorus is much louder than during WW2 operations, including the Pacicic, where the carbine was a hardly an outstanding success. The Marine Criticism is ever harsher than that of the Army.

An occasional platoon or company can be found which does not feel particularly harshly about the carbine.


I would use a carbine for protection but it can not be compared to the 16. My first choice would be a Colt SP1 AR-15 loaded with Nolser balliatic tips for home protection.

I also have to agree with most of Art posts.

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