A Mark of Respect

**Bud Helms** · February 18, 2001, 03:32 PM

This morning CNN showed George W. leaving HM-1. The marine at the front step saluted, GW returned it, and as he walked away, the marine executed a face turn to stand facing GW´s back ... something that was missing in eight years of the Clinton presidency.

The traditional Marine Corps mark of respect was rendered to the new president. It goes back to the days in the rigging, when the marine orderly to the ship´s captain always faced him, no matter his direction of movement, to be ready to receive an order.

Who says the military can´t hold back when they don´t respect someone?

For eight years, they did and Willy-the-Pooh never knew.

*******************
PS: I wonder what GW likes to shoot.

**4V50 Gary** · February 18, 2001, 04:15 PM

I'm sure there's much relief among the Marines who are assigned there, the Old Guard (1/3), and Secret Service now that Willie and the Witch are gone. That Marine's action was probably accompanied with true respect and not just in response to standing orders/traditions.

2shots · February 18, 2001, 04:58 PM

Thank you for pointing out a very important detail that I never would have recognized. The thought of that Marine makes me feel much better. Bravo.

LawDog · February 18, 2001, 07:03 PM

Sensop, I don't know about anything else W. shoots, but he's death on doves with a 12-gauge.

That is, when he's not nervous. During his first run for Governor, he was out during dove season, reporters all over the place, just in time to see W. make a beautiful wingshot -- on an out-of-season quail.

Someone found a game warden, W. took his ticket graciously, then went on hunting.

LawDog

M1911 · February 21, 2001, 01:48 PM

During the inaugural, I noticed some soldiers in dress uniforms that I didn't recognize. They looked sorta like Marine uniforms, but the hat was wrong. Was that the Old Guard? Anyone know where I could find some pictures on the web of the Old Guard uniforms?

M1911

madison46 · February 21, 2001, 04:24 PM

I didn't know that and would have never noticed. I'll spread that around.

ajaxinacan · February 22, 2001, 09:43 AM

If the hat you saw was blue, then you were probably seeing soldiers in their dress blues. IMO, the best looking Army uniform, which is blue with yellow piping. There are several versions of it, worn by both officers and enlisted.

The Marines usually wear blue trousers with their dress blues, and the cover is always the white "barracks" cover.

M1911 · February 22, 2001, 12:32 PM

ajax:

That must have been it. It wasn't a Marine uniform -- my cousin just retired from the Corps as a WO4, so I'm familiar with the Marine dress uniform. Didn't realize that the Army had a dress uniform other than the class A.

M1911

**Bud Helms** · February 22, 2001, 10:17 PM

Each branch of the service has a "Formal Dress" uniform that is different from Class A Dress. Most of them are really good looking ... except for the Air Force (IMHO) ... dammit!

John Marshall · February 23, 2001, 12:50 AM

I, too, had noticed what sensop pointed out and one other small point which I have now witnessed twice. When George W. reached the bottom of the steps of HM-1 and, before returning the salute smartly, he turned toward the Marine and, saluting, said (if my lip reading is as accurate is I think), "Thank You". A small thing and perhaps not necessary or appropriate but still ...

deanf · February 23, 2001, 12:58 AM

Reminds me of this story by Ronald Reagan:

http://www.ronaldreagan.com/tradition.html

**Bud Helms** · February 24, 2001, 03:33 AM

Aaah, Thank you deanf. I've been looking for that article.

duck hunt · March 18, 2001, 03:30 PM

Check out this link... http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/salute.htm

It quotes the first post on this thread word for word. Does Snopes follow TFL? Sensop?

JerryM · March 18, 2001, 04:55 PM

sensop,
Is this "Mark of Respect" really a Marine tradition? I know several people who have been part of Honor Guards and they are unaware of such a tradition. Where can it be verified? Jerry

buzz_knox · March 18, 2001, 05:40 PM

One other very noticeable difference: marching. Whenever I saw any military around Clinton (such as following him out to a press conference), they were always disorganized and out of step. Even the Marines wouldn't march around that scumbag. With Bush, it's precision movement every time.

variantis · March 18, 2001, 06:40 PM

3/18

Saw two instances of GW and HM1 this last week. Interesting to note the differences in exchanges between the military and the POTUS !!!

Once ... boarding the aircraft ... GW salutes as he approaches the steps. The marine salutes and holds the salute - no face turn. GW pauses on the first step - leans slightly and says something to the marine. No reaction from marine who holds salute long past GW's entrance into the aircraft. GW moves curtain aside upon entering aircraft - obvious quick exchange between pilots and GW - who, by the way turned to look at both of them.

Another ... exiting the aircraft. Sweeps curtain aside before exiting, leans into cockpit, obvious exchange - turns to the steps - smile on face. Marine at base of steps stands in salute. GW turns to marine upon reaching ground, salutes, marine returns salute and face turns as GW leaves. There is a casual air to GW salute. Not disrespectful, but comfortable - and not theatrics for the camera.

Make me proud after many long years of snarling when seeing bubba pay more attention to the dog than to those serving.

Tamara · March 18, 2001, 09:30 PM

Quote:

The new command of the Presidential Detail may have chosen to add a facing movement to the protocol. This is at the complete discretion of the command.

So it wasn't individual Marines that had no respect for Pres. Bubba, but the commander of their detail.

duck hunt · March 18, 2001, 11:12 PM

Y'know, Tamara, I thought that too....

**Bud Helms** · March 19, 2001, 12:28 AM

Yeah, I ran across that snopes debunk entry when looking for something else there.

JerryM, I shall endeavor to locate that source. I got the info about the tradition from an individual I spoke to on the phone right after I saw the thing on TV. As far as the word-for-word quote, that didn't surprise me in this age if cut'n'paste and proliferation of email. I have recieved it 5 or 6 times in email already, although not word-for-word.

That's my luck ... I get debunked on my first round-the-world email.

There should be a source. ... working. If I can't verify it, I will strangle my nephew, who is the person who told me about the tradition, and drag his body here for a thorough beating.

44rugerfan · March 19, 2001, 02:20 AM

This may not be much in the way of verification, but I asked a guy at work who was in the Marines back in the late 50's and he seemed to remember a similiar incident, only it was a general chewing out some Marines for not turning to face him at all times. General was a stickler for detail, and the honor guard provided by the base was not up to snuff as far as he was concerned. But again, might just be one general's idea of how things should run and not a tradition, I don't know.

Munro Williams · March 19, 2001, 10:04 AM

From the Snopes link (great link, BTW)

"This is at the complete discretion of the command...."

Obviously, the Marines were none too happy with Bill. This was reflected in a command decision. Great. I'm rather pleased with that.

As for the wording of the post, well, not all of us are English teachers, and from time to time we encounter someone who is able to articulate our unformed thoughts as we would like them to be heard.

What's wrong with that?

duck hunt · March 19, 2001, 10:38 AM

Quote:

well, not all of us are English teachers

Munro, I don't know if you are implying that I have accused Sensop of plagiarism, or accused Snopes, are have taken issue with someone's wording...the fact of the matter is, my question was genuine. I know that there are a lot of lurkers here, many of them political/press/information types, and I was just wondering if someone had picked up Sensop's post word for word.

On another topic, has anyone else noticed that "Snopes" is an anagram of "Sensop"? Hmmmmm......

**Bud Helms** · March 19, 2001, 11:21 PM

Quote:

"... has anyone else noticed that "Snopes" is an anagram of "Sensop"? Hmmmmm......"

Damn! I've been caught!

Don't worry Duck Hunt. I didn't think you were pickin' on me.

I've thought of something else. Attributing the action of the Marine guard to a Marine tradition was a little bit too much liberty with the facts on my part. I have no way of knowing if it is really a tradition, just because it may have been practiced years ago. I am still waiting on an answer from the nephew unit. I suspect he knows the price for failure ... that's why I haven't heard from him.

USP45 · March 19, 2001, 11:47 PM

Lets postulate that the next POTUS was like and unlike Clinton.

Like in that he was never in the military.
Unlike in that he is a good, honest, responsible man.

Would it be appropriate for this president to salute?

February 18, 2001, 07:03 PM	#4
LawDog Staff Emeritus Join Date: September 15, 1999 Location: Where am I going? Why am I in this handbasket? Posts: 4,197	Sensop, I don't know about anything else W. shoots, but he's death on doves with a 12-gauge. That is, when he's not nervous. During his first run for Governor, he was out during dove season, reporters all over the place, just in time to see W. make a beautiful wingshot -- on an out-of-season quail. Someone found a game warden, W. took his ticket graciously, then went on hunting. LawDog __________________ "The Father wove the skein of your life a long time ago. Go and hide in a hole if you wish, but you won't live one instant longer." --The 13th Warrior Bona na Croin The LawDog Files

February 21, 2001, 04:24 PM	#6
madison46 Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2000 Location: Roseville, CA USA Posts: 568	Nice I didn't know that and would have never noticed. I'll spread that around.

February 23, 2001, 12:58 AM	#11
deanf Senior Member Join Date: June 6, 1999 Location: N47º 12’ x W122º 10' Posts: 1,598	Reminds me of this story by Ronald Reagan: http://www.ronaldreagan.com/tradition.html __________________ I'm a constitutional fetishist. Airplane Pictures

March 18, 2001, 03:30 PM	#13
duck hunt Senior Member Join Date: February 6, 2000 Posts: 481	Is Snopes quoting Sensop? Check out this link... http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/salute.htm It quotes the first post on this thread word for word. Does Snopes follow TFL? Sensop? __________________ quack ~~~ Read my book! Snake Hips -- in stores now!

March 18, 2001, 11:12 PM	#18
duck hunt Senior Member Join Date: February 6, 2000 Posts: 481	Y'know, Tamara, I thought that too.... __________________ quack ~~~ Read my book! Snake Hips -- in stores now!

February 18, 2001, 03:32 PM	#1
Bud Helms Staff Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia Posts: 12,907	This morning CNN showed George W. leaving HM-1. The marine at the front step saluted, GW returned it, and as he walked away, the marine executed a face turn to stand facing GW´s back ... something that was missing in eight years of the Clinton presidency. The traditional Marine Corps mark of respect was rendered to the new president. It goes back to the days in the rigging, when the marine orderly to the ship´s captain always faced him, no matter his direction of movement, to be ready to receive an order. Who says the military can´t hold back when they don´t respect someone? For eight years, they did and Willy-the-Pooh never knew. ******************* PS: I wonder what GW likes to shoot.

February 18, 2001, 04:15 PM	#2
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 15,411	I'm sure there's much relief among the Marines who are assigned there, the Old Guard (1/3), and Secret Service now that Willie and the Witch are gone. That Marine's action was probably accompanied with true respect and not just in response to standing orders/traditions.

February 18, 2001, 04:58 PM	#3
2shots Senior Member Join Date: October 7, 1999 Posts: 183	Thank you for pointing out a very important detail that I never would have recognized. The thought of that Marine makes me feel much better. Bravo.

February 21, 2001, 01:48 PM	#5
M1911 Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 2000 Posts: 4,062	During the inaugural, I noticed some soldiers in dress uniforms that I didn't recognize. They looked sorta like Marine uniforms, but the hat was wrong. Was that the Old Guard? Anyone know where I could find some pictures on the web of the Old Guard uniforms? M1911

February 22, 2001, 09:43 AM	#7
ajaxinacan Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2000 Location: New Mexico Posts: 436	If the hat you saw was blue, then you were probably seeing soldiers in their dress blues. IMO, the best looking Army uniform, which is blue with yellow piping. There are several versions of it, worn by both officers and enlisted. The Marines usually wear blue trousers with their dress blues, and the cover is always the white "barracks" cover.

February 22, 2001, 12:32 PM	#8
M1911 Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 2000 Posts: 4,062	ajax: That must have been it. It wasn't a Marine uniform -- my cousin just retired from the Corps as a WO4, so I'm familiar with the Marine dress uniform. Didn't realize that the Army had a dress uniform other than the class A. M1911

February 22, 2001, 10:17 PM	#9
Bud Helms Staff Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia Posts: 12,907	Each branch of the service has a "Formal Dress" uniform that is different from Class A Dress. Most of them are really good looking ... except for the Air Force (IMHO) ... dammit!

February 23, 2001, 12:50 AM	#10
John Marshall Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2000 Posts: 434	I, too, had noticed what sensop pointed out and one other small point which I have now witnessed twice. When George W. reached the bottom of the steps of HM-1 and, before returning the salute smartly, he turned toward the Marine and, saluting, said (if my lip reading is as accurate is I think), "Thank You". A small thing and perhaps not necessary or appropriate but still ...

February 24, 2001, 03:33 AM	#12
Bud Helms Staff Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia Posts: 12,907	Aaah, Thank you deanf. I've been looking for that article.

March 18, 2001, 04:55 PM	#14
JerryM Senior Member Join Date: April 5, 1999 Location: New Mexico Posts: 1,727	sensop, Is this "Mark of Respect" really a Marine tradition? I know several people who have been part of Honor Guards and they are unaware of such a tradition. Where can it be verified? Jerry

March 18, 2001, 05:40 PM	#15
buzz_knox Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 1999 Location: Knoxville, in the Free State of Tennesse Posts: 4,191	One other very noticeable difference: marching. Whenever I saw any military around Clinton (such as following him out to a press conference), they were always disorganized and out of step. Even the Marines wouldn't march around that scumbag. With Bush, it's precision movement every time.

March 18, 2001, 06:40 PM	#16
variantis Member Join Date: December 27, 2000 Location: Rochester, NY Posts: 50	3/18 Saw two instances of GW and HM1 this last week. Interesting to note the differences in exchanges between the military and the POTUS !!! Once ... boarding the aircraft ... GW salutes as he approaches the steps. The marine salutes and holds the salute - no face turn. GW pauses on the first step - leans slightly and says something to the marine. No reaction from marine who holds salute long past GW's entrance into the aircraft. GW moves curtain aside upon entering aircraft - obvious quick exchange between pilots and GW - who, by the way turned to look at both of them. Another ... exiting the aircraft. Sweeps curtain aside before exiting, leans into cockpit, obvious exchange - turns to the steps - smile on face. Marine at base of steps stands in salute. GW turns to marine upon reaching ground, salutes, marine returns salute and face turns as GW leaves. There is a casual air to GW salute. Not disrespectful, but comfortable - and not theatrics for the camera. Make me proud after many long years of snarling when seeing bubba pay more attention to the dog than to those serving.

March 19, 2001, 12:28 AM	#19
Bud Helms Staff Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia Posts: 12,907	Yeah, I ran across that snopes debunk entry when looking for something else there. JerryM, I shall endeavor to locate that source. I got the info about the tradition from an individual I spoke to on the phone right after I saw the thing on TV. As far as the word-for-word quote, that didn't surprise me in this age if cut'n'paste and proliferation of email. I have recieved it 5 or 6 times in email already, although not word-for-word. That's my luck ... I get debunked on my first round-the-world email. There should be a source. ... working. If I can't verify it, I will strangle my nephew, who is the person who told me about the tradition, and drag his body here for a thorough beating.

March 19, 2001, 02:20 AM	#20
44rugerfan Senior Member Join Date: March 10, 2001 Posts: 277	This may not be much in the way of verification, but I asked a guy at work who was in the Marines back in the late 50's and he seemed to remember a similiar incident, only it was a general chewing out some Marines for not turning to face him at all times. General was a stickler for detail, and the honor guard provided by the base was not up to snuff as far as he was concerned. But again, might just be one general's idea of how things should run and not a tradition, I don't know.

March 19, 2001, 10:04 AM	#21
Munro Williams Senior Member Join Date: January 13, 2000 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 936	Not a Biggy.... From the Snopes link (great link, BTW) "This is at the complete discretion of the command...." Obviously, the Marines were none too happy with Bill. This was reflected in a command decision. Great. I'm rather pleased with that. As for the wording of the post, well, not all of us are English teachers, and from time to time we encounter someone who is able to articulate our unformed thoughts as we would like them to be heard. What's wrong with that?

March 19, 2001, 11:47 PM	#24
USP45 Senior Member Join Date: March 22, 2000 Location: Peoples Commonwealth of Massachusetts Posts: 1,562	SO the question I have is... Lets postulate that the next POTUS was like and unlike Clinton. Like in that he was never in the military. Unlike in that he is a good, honest, responsible man. Would it be appropriate for this president to salute? __________________ ~USP "[Even if there would be] few tears shed if and when the Second Amendment is held to guarantee nothing more than the state National Guard, this would simply show that the Founders were right when they feared that some future generation might wish to abandon liberties that they considered essential, and so sought to protect those liberties in a Bill of Rights. We may tolerate the abridgement of property rights and the elimination of a right to bear arms; but we should not pretend that these are not reductions of rights." -- Justice Scalia 1998