Finally had my "ah ha!" Moment

Kimio · March 28, 2016, 07:39 PM

Out of curiosity, how long did it take some of ya'll here I have those "ah ha" moments when you were learning to shoot? I unfortunately didn't have the benefit of having a veteran shooter by my side to teach me a lot of the things I've been doing, most of the things I've learned have come from watching YouTube and slinging lots of lead down range or experimenting as I tried to find what worked for me.

So after hundreds of rounds, modifying grip techniques and trigger techniques, I finally figured out what I was doing wrong, or rather several things that I was doing wrong that made my shots print all over the paper.

The funny things is, it was so simple, I have no idea why it took me so long to realize these errors of mine.

First, I wasn't keeping my from sight post in focus the entire time I was aiming. This is firearms basics 101, and for the life of me, I have no idea why I didn't realize this was what was making the difference between me making 3-5" groups to 1-1.5" groups at 40ft.

The second pertains to my carry hand gun of choice, my CZ75 Compact.

My hands are a little on the small size and I found that I had rotated the gun so that the "beaver tail" of the hand gun rested on my thumbs knuckle for the most part. This had me torquing the gun during my trigger pull to the left, and no amount of adjustment with trigger pressure would fix that problem.

Shifting my grip, so that the handgun sits in my hand more naturally (at the cost of having the trigger feel awkward as it felt like my finger wasn't completely on the trigger the way I thought it needed to be) brought everything perfectly in line and centered.

After well over 1-2k rounds through this handgun, you'd think I'd have figured all this out sooner.

I tried this with my GSG 22 M1911, which I always had trouble with, printing groups literally feet in diameter, and again, boom, 1.5-2" groups using crappy bulk ammo at roughly 30ft.

It's a gratifying feeling, but my goodness did it take forever to get to this point. Now if I can just get it to where I can repeat this consistently with a both eyes open aiming technique that doesn't take me 20 seconds to get my eye to focus correctly.

Haven't even tried doing this with my weak hand yet.

Model12Win · March 28, 2016, 08:05 PM

I've been shooting so long I can't remember. I don't think I ever had an"Ah-ha!" moment like so many gun writers like to say. Just got used to shooting and my groups got smaller and smaller every time.

Skeets · March 28, 2016, 10:04 PM

+1^^^ Mod.12,that's really the way it happened!

johnwilliamson062 · March 29, 2016, 07:28 AM

I bought a Kahr T9(suggested by playboy penguin for my hand size). It fit my hand correctly, solving that beavertail on the thumb knuckle problem without getting an awkward trigger problem. It was also so accurate all the variation in POI was effectively mine without a doubt. That allowed me to close in on all the other issues pretty quickly.

O4L · March 29, 2016, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Model12Win

I've been shooting so long I can't remember.

That's exactly what I was thinking!

Dufus · March 29, 2016, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Out of curiosity, how long did it take some of ya'll here I have those "ah ha" moments when you were learning to shoot? I unfortunately didn't have the benefit of having a veteran shooter by my side to teach me a lot of the things I've been doing, most of the things I've learned have come from watching YouTube and slinging lots of lead down range or experimenting as I tried to find what worked for me.

Too bad you didn't grow up before Al Gore invented the internet. You would realize what the old timers had to go thru to get there.

It was a chore going from published articles in gun rags, the public libraries, and correspondence.

Armybrat · April 1, 2016, 08:57 AM

Quote:

I've been shooting so long I can't remember. I don't think I ever had an"Ah-ha!" moment like so many gun writers like to say. Just got used to shooting and my groups got smaller and smaller every time.

Same here, except the older I get, my groups get bigger & bigger.

Ocraknife · April 3, 2016, 03:11 PM

That's awesome. What kind of sights do you have? @ 40ft my front sight would completely cover a 1.5" target. I don't know how to maintain a proper point of aim on something I can't see.

Boncrayon · April 3, 2016, 07:40 PM

Reading your progression of correction was "Ah, Ha" moment in itself. You did not mention your breathing during your range practice, or your eye dominance. Both are critical in your practice. If you know your decided eye dominance in focusing on the front sight that's the first step.

Since you have a small grip (or shorter fingers) the selection of your trigger finger location is important...just in front of the first joint. Also, you CANNOT be breathing when the handgun decides to fire as breathing moves your torso....but you do need a quick full breath between each shot with slow release as you squeeze. Shooting wide around your groupings also show you are anticipating the "boom" and "pulling" the trigger at the last moment to make it fire. The other improvement is the "follow through" after the fire, keeping the sights aligned for the next shot.

NRA Certified Instructor in Pistol/Rifle/Shot/RSO
LAWF Hunter Education Instructor
LA Concealed Carry Instructor

Brit · April 3, 2016, 09:23 PM

When I taught Private Security, 1980 till 2003, my own School, in Ontario, Canada, many students were ex Police.

So many looked over the sights, by 3 or 4 inches. So as they got further back, shots were lower down on the target. Plus using the trigger like a switch, snatch/snatch.

As the weapons of choice at this time, were S&W Mod 65 Stainless .357 mag. Revolvers. I used a faulty one (it shaved lead big time) to use to train sights, and trigger press. I had thrown the cylinder, and crane away (too expensive to fix) first, describe the sights, then point out this was not a working firearm, it would not, could not discharge a projectile.

Show the correct two hand hold (unless the student had one he would sooner use) have the individual aim at the target, then stand in front of the gun, then lift the handgun until my aiming (master) eye, aligned with their already predetermined master eye. Then lift the front sight to align, with that back sight. Push it out of alignment, and have them return the sights to proper alignment. do this several times. Done.

Now the smooth trigger press!!! Put the two together! Magic.

Of course, my classes were max 8 students total, 4 on the line at once.

rightside · April 4, 2016, 06:18 PM

Like you, I taught myself. I had one real "ah-ha" moment. I trade an old pump to an old feller in the oil field for an older Iver Johnson 22lr revolver. It was a little worn and loose, but ,being young, what did I care. I was driving across an old country bridge and decided to stop in the middle of it and fire that old pistol down into the water(I know). Well, I had the window down so I just laid that old revolver across my left arm to kinda' steady it and fired. "AH-HA"!! Damn, that hurt! That thing spit lead and powder out both sides of the cylinder and buried it right in my left arm! My arm looked like "Lucky Ned Pepper " for several months there after. Only took one time too learn that one!

Pietro Beretta · April 5, 2016, 04:24 PM

I was in a similar situation as you, I didn't have anyone to teach me how to shoot. I would go shooting with friends a couple of times a year but they didn't know how to really shoot either.

Since I am a technophile, I was building webpages for fun when Geocities was still around when I was 12, I found the internet to be a trove of information when I got my handgun, specifically YouTube and gun forums such as this one.

(Speaking of YouTube, I have appreciated the Sig Academy videos these are new and in HD - much better than what I had when I was searching youtube back in the day.)

I would apply what I learned online to what I was doing at the range and things just started to click for me, or my "ah ha!" moment.

I would go shooting once a month and over the years range officers, LEOs would give pointers once in a while.

As soon as you stop thinking you can learn, you stop learning which is not a good thing.

Quote:

The second pertains to my carry hand gun of choice, my CZ75 Compact.

I had the same exact issue with the CZ75 compact. I bought the gun as my second handgun for extremely cheap in a group buy on THR forums, purchased it without ever touching it. I never could shoot that thing accurately - the trigger is simply too far forward and the grips too wide to manipulate the handgun controls with my hands. Every time I would be Reaching for the trigger and my shots would always pull left no matter what I tried.

I always thought it was weird how "big" the CZ75 compact was in my hand when compared to a full size 1911 - I didn't know about single stacks and double stacks at the time. Thing was HUGE compared to a springfield XD sub-compact .40, which I shot MUCH better than the CZ.

I no longer have the CZ, good solid firearm but it just didn't fit my hand. I would suggest ditching the CZ for something that fits... go to a range and rent a bunch of stuff. I also don't have a .40 anymore; I shoot follow-ups more accurately and faster with 9mm and .45.

To be honest with you, I dont know why this is but... I shoot my .22s worse than my centerfire handguns for some strange reason...

The big things to work on:

Sight Picture
Breathing
Flinching
Anticipating
Trigger control
Grip

Pietro Beretta · April 5, 2016, 04:43 PM

I can't stress this enough, get a gun that fits your hands.

You shouldn't have to "reach" for the trigger
You shouldn't have to rorate the gun to manipulate the controls

Your going to notice an immediate improvement when you get a gun that fits your hand.

March 28, 2016, 07:39 PM	#1
Kimio Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2011 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,171	Finally had my "ah ha!" Moment Out of curiosity, how long did it take some of ya'll here I have those "ah ha" moments when you were learning to shoot? I unfortunately didn't have the benefit of having a veteran shooter by my side to teach me a lot of the things I've been doing, most of the things I've learned have come from watching YouTube and slinging lots of lead down range or experimenting as I tried to find what worked for me. So after hundreds of rounds, modifying grip techniques and trigger techniques, I finally figured out what I was doing wrong, or rather several things that I was doing wrong that made my shots print all over the paper. The funny things is, it was so simple, I have no idea why it took me so long to realize these errors of mine. First, I wasn't keeping my from sight post in focus the entire time I was aiming. This is firearms basics 101, and for the life of me, I have no idea why I didn't realize this was what was making the difference between me making 3-5" groups to 1-1.5" groups at 40ft. The second pertains to my carry hand gun of choice, my CZ75 Compact. My hands are a little on the small size and I found that I had rotated the gun so that the "beaver tail" of the hand gun rested on my thumbs knuckle for the most part. This had me torquing the gun during my trigger pull to the left, and no amount of adjustment with trigger pressure would fix that problem. Shifting my grip, so that the handgun sits in my hand more naturally (at the cost of having the trigger feel awkward as it felt like my finger wasn't completely on the trigger the way I thought it needed to be) brought everything perfectly in line and centered. After well over 1-2k rounds through this handgun, you'd think I'd have figured all this out sooner. I tried this with my GSG 22 M1911, which I always had trouble with, printing groups literally feet in diameter, and again, boom, 1.5-2" groups using crappy bulk ammo at roughly 30ft. It's a gratifying feeling, but my goodness did it take forever to get to this point. Now if I can just get it to where I can repeat this consistently with a both eyes open aiming technique that doesn't take me 20 seconds to get my eye to focus correctly. Haven't even tried doing this with my weak hand yet.

March 28, 2016, 10:04 PM	#3
Skeets Member in memoriam Join Date: April 6, 2015 Location: Indiana Posts: 583	Ah-Ha!33 +1^^^ Mod.12,that's really the way it happened! __________________ Skeets "Over Kill Never Fails"

April 3, 2016, 03:11 PM	#8
Ocraknife Senior Member Join Date: March 19, 2002 Location: Nashville Posts: 1,117	That's awesome. What kind of sights do you have? @ 40ft my front sight would completely cover a 1.5" target. I don't know how to maintain a proper point of aim on something I can't see. __________________ "The loudest sound you'll ever hear is a "bang" when you weren't expecting one." -Jimro

April 3, 2016, 07:40 PM	#9
Boncrayon Senior Member Join Date: March 24, 2008 Posts: 920	Finally had my "ah ha!" Moment Reading your progression of correction was "Ah, Ha" moment in itself. You did not mention your breathing during your range practice, or your eye dominance. Both are critical in your practice. If you know your decided eye dominance in focusing on the front sight that's the first step. Since you have a small grip (or shorter fingers) the selection of your trigger finger location is important...just in front of the first joint. Also, you CANNOT be breathing when the handgun decides to fire as breathing moves your torso....but you do need a quick full breath between each shot with slow release as you squeeze. Shooting wide around your groupings also show you are anticipating the "boom" and "pulling" the trigger at the last moment to make it fire. The other improvement is the "follow through" after the fire, keeping the sights aligned for the next shot. NRA Certified Instructor in Pistol/Rifle/Shot/RSO LAWF Hunter Education Instructor LA Concealed Carry Instructor

April 5, 2016, 04:43 PM	#13
Pietro Beretta Senior Member Join Date: August 31, 2005 Location: WA Posts: 198	I can't stress this enough, get a gun that fits your hands. You shouldn't have to "reach" for the trigger You shouldn't have to rorate the gun to manipulate the controls Your going to notice an immediate improvement when you get a gun that fits your hand. __________________ "Stress will magnify your weakness."

March 28, 2016, 08:05 PM	#2
Model12Win Junior member Join Date: October 20, 2012 Posts: 5,854	I've been shooting so long I can't remember. I don't think I ever had an"Ah-ha!" moment like so many gun writers like to say. Just got used to shooting and my groups got smaller and smaller every time.

March 29, 2016, 07:28 AM	#4
johnwilliamson062 Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Posts: 9,995	I bought a Kahr T9(suggested by playboy penguin for my hand size). It fit my hand correctly, solving that beavertail on the thumb knuckle problem without getting an awkward trigger problem. It was also so accurate all the variation in POI was effectively mine without a doubt. That allowed me to close in on all the other issues pretty quickly.

April 3, 2016, 09:23 PM	#10
Brit Senior Member Join Date: January 29, 2005 Location: Orlando FL Posts: 1,934	When I taught Private Security, 1980 till 2003, my own School, in Ontario, Canada, many students were ex Police. So many looked over the sights, by 3 or 4 inches. So as they got further back, shots were lower down on the target. Plus using the trigger like a switch, snatch/snatch. As the weapons of choice at this time, were S&W Mod 65 Stainless .357 mag. Revolvers. I used a faulty one (it shaved lead big time) to use to train sights, and trigger press. I had thrown the cylinder, and crane away (too expensive to fix) first, describe the sights, then point out this was not a working firearm, it would not, could not discharge a projectile. Show the correct two hand hold (unless the student had one he would sooner use) have the individual aim at the target, then stand in front of the gun, then lift the handgun until my aiming (master) eye, aligned with their already predetermined master eye. Then lift the front sight to align, with that back sight. Push it out of alignment, and have them return the sights to proper alignment. do this several times. Done. Now the smooth trigger press!!! Put the two together! Magic. Of course, my classes were max 8 students total, 4 on the line at once.

April 4, 2016, 06:18 PM	#11
rightside Senior Member Join Date: February 4, 2012 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 419	Like you, I taught myself. I had one real "ah-ha" moment. I trade an old pump to an old feller in the oil field for an older Iver Johnson 22lr revolver. It was a little worn and loose, but ,being young, what did I care. I was driving across an old country bridge and decided to stop in the middle of it and fire that old pistol down into the water(I know). Well, I had the window down so I just laid that old revolver across my left arm to kinda' steady it and fired. "AH-HA"!! Damn, that hurt! That thing spit lead and powder out both sides of the cylinder and buried it right in my left arm! My arm looked like "Lucky Ned Pepper " for several months there after. Only took one time too learn that one!