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Old May 23, 2001, 03:01 PM   #1
LASur5r
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From time to time we have some good arguments going about stances and methods of shooting, but it's not too often that we discuss the strengths and weaknesses of the "Run and Gun" School of shooting.
I know that indoor ranges usually don't allow it because of liability, but who on this board believes in running and gunning and where do you practice?
How do you practice?
Any real fallacies with this method of shooting?
Thanks in advance for any info or comments.
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Old May 23, 2001, 05:22 PM   #2
Double Naught Spy
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Outdoor ranges don't usually allow it either, nor drawing from the holster...all liability.

I am not comfortable with 'running' and gunning. Walking quickly is another matter all together, however. We do approaches, retreats, sideways, and diagonals (forward and backward). We also do moves from station to station while keeping the pistol trained on target, shooting if necessary.

If you actually mean true running, there are a couple of control issues with which to contend. Human running involves a substantial bounce that is something like that of a gallop of a horse. Arms are likely necessary to maintain gait, hence aiming and shooting are extremely difficult, not to mention contending with the bounce as well. Full sprinting eliminates much of the elevational aspect of the bounce, but both arms are needed for the pump action at that speed.
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Old May 23, 2001, 05:46 PM   #3
Art Eatman
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Living in the country gives me lots of room for shooting ranges at home. I do a fair amount of practice in drawing while walking--which could be a real-world necessity. I also try shooting while going "to the dirt", and when turning to run.

I pretty much assume that actual running is going to cover, or some sort of escape. I'm dubious that I could hit anything while running except if running directly at an enemy, and at very close range--highly unlikely circumstance. I know it is possible to hit somewhere on an IPSC target when in a slow run, but it's more "instinct" sorta shooting, pretty much spray and pray--at least for me.

I think one could try various scenarios while dry-firing at home. It seems to me that the most difficult part of "Surprise!" scenarios is acquiring and controlling one's handgun while in a rapid move to cover; or to duck out of the line of fire, or create space between one's self and a companion or spouse. You don't need to shoot, to practice drawing while making a very fast move downward, back, or to the side--and trying to acquire a sight picture.

Seems to me that the average Bad Guy is not expecting a victim who shoots back, or who shoots first. I'll guess that the BG is using his gun or knife more for intimidation than actually wanting to kill. When he finds a hornet's nest instead of a honey-jar, he might be as likely to run as an armed not-victim.

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Old May 25, 2001, 10:37 AM   #4
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IMHO if your running from a fight you should have a goal in mind [ie cover, concealment, favorable terrain, etc] otherwise your not really gaining much if anything. Beating feet has many practical problems as a self defense option.

I think anything but suppressive fire while actually running will be a waste of time. And even then your probably not going to have enough ammo. At least if your talking about a CCW situation. Also remember that if your really running jumping etc you won't be able to do reloads very well, would be better to rely on a "New York Reload". So you might run dry at just the wrong time, or drop your reload or gun [ala Miami/Dade county Shoot Out]

I think for most people practicing getting to cover/concealment first and then draw and shoot, makes the most sense. Or dealing with 1st attack with empty hands to gain time/position to draw & shoot if up close.
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Old May 25, 2001, 02:09 PM   #5
Art Eatman
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An awful lot of "Mumble, mumble...I dunno..." in this sort of stuff. I think the main thing is to give thought to all the "what if?" aspects of *likely* scenarios, considering various options. If you can shave a few seconds off whatever response you make in a real-world situation, it might be the difference between surviving and losing.

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Old May 25, 2001, 09:21 PM   #6
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Art: You mention shaving a few seconds off as possibly making the difference between life and death. I am not sure where you mean to shave/save time?

I know lots of people spend time on speed or quick draw. But from what I have been able to learn the critical time usually involves stuff more like the OODA loop than how fast one can draw & shoot.

Under practice and real life I have noticed it is much easier to do one thing at a time under stress than trying to do two or three [drawing or seeking cover; giving first aid or calling for paramedics]. Usually if I stay focused on one item at a time I can get them done smoother and faster than if I try to save time by doing several things at once. So I have learned to do first things first. And the "first things" list should be as short as possible so they get done fast.

I think the important part about Cooper's Color code is that it formulizes the decision making process for social situations and aids in streamlining thought & responses to a threat. My [simplified] understanding of Cooper's doctrine is that you only have to decide if threat is real. If it is then the response is front sight...trigger...press.

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Old May 25, 2001, 09:58 PM   #7
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Glamdring, you mentioned that beating feet has many practical problems as a self defense option. I respectfully think that idea is somewhat incorrect. I don't mean to argue with you, but maybe expand the concept of the practical benefits of beating feet.

First, the best defense to any situation is to simply not be there. Beating feet is one way to help make that happen.

Second, beating feet puts more distance between you and your opponent, a sort of subset of not being there. If your opponent has a non projectile hand weapon, you are out of range very quickly. If it is a projectile weapon, such as a gun, distance combined with movement are your greatest assets if you do not have cover. Beating feet beats the hell out of standing there if he has already drawn on you.

Unfortunately while the concepts of Cooper's color codes have benefit all of us who use them, the clandestine goblin can certainly surprise the most vigilantly aware individuals if the goblin truly wishes to do so. Fortunately, most goblins don't preplan that well.

Comparatively speaking, beating feet is a gross motor skill that comes naturally in comparison to trying to draw and fire a gun at the goblin who likely already has you in the proverbial cross hairs. You can act by running more quickly than the goblin can react by firing although if you start to draw, his reaction will be slower than your action, but because he has so much less to do, he will likely still beat you.

The more distance there is between you and a bad person, the better off your situation from a defensive perspective.

That being said, I am sure Glamdring or someone else will come up with some examples where this might not be the case and I am sure they will be good information to consider.
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Old May 25, 2001, 10:51 PM   #8
Art Eatman
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Glamdring, my thinking about shaving seconds has to do with a certain amount of "If he does this, I do that."

A simple example: Assume some hostile statement coming from a male, behind you. Options: Run, immediately, to create space. Or, turn and look over your shoulder? Stop, turn around, while putting your hand on your weapon? I think I'd haul tail for at least 10 or 20 feet, and *then* look back--still moving, and preparing to draw/fire.

If you don't create space, but turn to look or stop and look, you might well lose valuable time.

You can pre-think several "If A, then B." scenarios. *Maybe* you'll save some time in the decision-making process. The obvious caveat goes back to Clausewitz: "No battle plan survives contact with the enemy."

, Art
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Old May 26, 2001, 09:25 AM   #9
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"Close ambush- charge. Far ambush- run." Hide as necessary. It's the same as hand-to-hand, just on a slightly larger scale: get in or out. If you're caught "in the bubble", you might as well fight, 'cuz you're in more danger if you try to leave (run).
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Old May 26, 2001, 11:42 AM   #10
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No battle plan may survive contact with the enemy, but not having a plan at all may create indecision such that you don't survive contact with the enemy either.

Check out the thread on the cop that survived getting shot three times, all in the vest, but one shot missed his head. He put distance between himself and the shooter because he was too far away to go for the shooter's gun that was already drawn on the cop. Even if you don't agree with the tactics, it is a great little story on survival and continued fighting to win...

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...threadid=67997
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Old May 26, 2001, 02:10 PM   #11
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The best idea is to wargame the situation before you're in it. We teach this to all the FNG's out of the academy. If you wait until it happens you already lost. Have a plan, Practice, and don't walk around with YHUYA. If you want to practice run and gun go to a local IPSC match. you'll learn more about gunhandling in a day than you will in a month on most public ranges. No it's not tactical but the skills can be easily adapted to the tactical relm. Plus it's`fun as hell.
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Old May 27, 2001, 08:50 PM   #12
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Bullets are much faster than people. Take cover if there is any and SHOOT!
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Old May 28, 2001, 09:58 AM   #13
Tim Burke
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In some of the advanced Rangemaster courses Jim Higginbotham has the students engage multiple targets at about 3 yards while at dead run. Hits were surprisingly good. If I can hit them while running, and make it harder for them to hit me at the same time, is this not a Good Thing™?

TB., NC
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Old May 28, 2001, 11:15 AM   #14
Quartus
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Quote:
Bullets are much faster than people. Take cover if there is any and SHOOT!
Quote:
If I can hit them while running, and make it harder for them to hit me at the same time, is this not a Good Thing™?
Exactly. Your speed is miniscule compared to the slowest bullet, therefore running straight away from or towards a shooter presents him with an effectively stationary target. Only if you are moving across his field of view are you harder to hit.

The experience of the Israelis in tank warfare might be realistically extrapolated to the handgun situation. They were very effective against Egyptian tanks ('73). Their tactic was to come from a full run to a full stop as quickly as possible, aim, fire, and boogie. This has a twofold advantage:
  1. Accuracy. Firing from a rest they could actually aim. They scored an impressive number of hits on the Egyptians. The Egyptians, in contrast, fired on the run and scored few hits.
  2. It messes up the BG's aim. If you are moving across his field of view, he may be tracking you, preparing to fire. If you suddenly stop you break his tracking. Of course, you are now a stationary target, but you have the advantage of surprise.

Charging straight at your opponent may provide a pshychological advantage, i.e., you may shake him up so bad he drops his gun!

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Old May 29, 2001, 01:27 AM   #15
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Double Naught Spy: Avoiding a problem works well. Simply running doesn't work well unless you can catch them flat footed. It only adds distance if they don't follow you. If they pursue it is far easier for them to attack you than it is for you to attack them or defend, since they are behind you. It is also of little value if you have children or others to protect or if your not in superior physical condition to the Goblin.

I would suggest something like a modified Tueller Drill to test some aspects of running as a defense technique. Have "good guy" wear normal casual or work attire and have Goblins attemp to mug them with a dummy knife. And see how often someone with a drawn weapon at conversational distance can stop you from running away. How does a woman in heels out run someone in Nikes?

The problem I have with running away from a Goblin is that you will usually have to turn around or some such to have clear line of flight [assuming nothing behind you]. Unless you have the skills to run thru or around them. So you decide you will run in a direction you can't see until you comitt to running. What happens if there is something or someone blocking your path to run? Say another Goblin?

If your the target of a well planned ambush your line of retreat will be blocked or covered. Now a lot of goblins won't be that skilled, but I try to plan for an opponent at least as skilled as myself when I consider or suggest defense techniques. And as Spetre mentions the correct response to a near ambush is to assault thru the kill zone. Because in a close ambush, which is where most real world problems for civilians occur IMHO, the Goblins are so close that you can't get behind true cover or out of range fast enough to avoid being hit multiple times.

I agree that Goblins will still often surprise people despite Color Code/situational awareness. What I was saying was the main benifit of the color code system is that it allows a shorter OODA loop. You have a streamlined If A then B set of responses to work with.

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Old May 29, 2001, 04:39 PM   #16
LASur5r
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You guys are right

Glamdring, Spectre, Hoeck and a lot of you guys are right...
Recently, I changed my mode of operation...I had been trained in the old days to appear meek and humble and I tried this approach for years..decades....I thought it was just that I didn't have the pattern down. So guess what? I got challenged to fight for years.
I am 53 years old now and up to recently...I hate to admit...I must have been putting out heavy "sucker!" and "victim!" vibes. ONly a lot of luck and having the Man upstairs protecting fools and idiots got me through all the confrontations.
Just last year I got tired of this meek and mild approach and changed more to a confident, fast stride, exhuding medium level "ch'i" and turn it to higher level when I see potential threats and I have actually seen guys pushing back their "weapons?" when I got within the danger area.
I believe like you guys from the martial arts training when you hit the danger zone you move in close and tight, hit and run, move quickly.
...and like you guys believe, I practice on moving in quickly and trying to do fast disarms or knockdowns while keeping their weapon away from wife or child. I've trained both people to back off and to my 7 as the safest place that way when I countermove the opponent, I try to keep his weapon away from that area.
Anyway, nice to hear that you guys confirm a lot of what I have learned through the years.
Thanks.
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Old May 29, 2001, 06:22 PM   #17
Art Eatman
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The Psychologists keep saying, "Don't walk like a victim." All predators seek the easiest prey, whether Goblin or wolf. Walking with an air of confidence is off-putting, apparently.

I have never in my fairly long life ever sought trouble. I was told, once upon a time, that I had a way of walking into a place that exuded the message, "Don't mess with this guy." I was startled; such a thing had never occurred to me. (Actually, I was probably just struttin' a bit for whatever cute sweeties might be hangin' out. )

I'll take luck over skill, any day.

, Art
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Old May 29, 2001, 06:56 PM   #18
Quartus
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LASur5r, that's good to hear. Uh, can you teach that to the Republican 'leadership' in D.C.?

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Old May 29, 2001, 07:42 PM   #19
LASur5r
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Republican leadership?

Captain Hoek,
Don't think they want to listen...LOL

Art Eatman,
I used to run aaround with this other guy who eminated that "don't mess with this guy air" because one night we went to this really good hole in the wall place...must have been right after a local karate tournament because there were about 20 guys talking loud about their "experiences."
All the other customers had already left because they were really loud. So my friend and I walk in, I stopped at the door and suggested we leave...he came to eat there and by God, he was going to eat there.
We walked in...me being meek, and him being "confident."
The owner was happy to see me because he knew me and I try to be a "peacemaker."
The instructor and some of their top guys got a wild hair about my friend and they came over...before they got to us, the owner said, "Don't mess with that guy."
The owner also has a tough guy reputation.
They stopped and slowly went back to their table, but they kept giving us hard looks.
My friend completely ignored them and enjoyed a nice dinner.
I learned that night.
On a one to one or even at a three to one I can dominate my friend in an unarmed situation, but he has that air.
Can any one else add to this thread?
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Old May 30, 2001, 12:01 AM   #20
Quartus
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Off the direct topic, but LASur5r, you got it! Here's a partial quote from Tony Snow (as quoted in The Federalist)

Quote:
"The congressional GOP isn't spineless, as some allege. It's headless. It has no ideological core.

As for 'that air' - there's a difference between projecting confidence and having an edge that says, "I'm looking for trouble." A confident man can smile genuinely, can speak respectfully, and show courtesy.

And shoot straight.



[Edited by captainHoek on 05-30-2001 at 02:05 PM]
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Old June 1, 2001, 09:58 AM   #21
Marty Hayes
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This thread keys in on one of our reasons for offering, andone of ther easons students take advanced training. We acknowledge that odds are slight that a student will need to use the material they learn in an advanced shooting/tactics class.

But, we also fully recognize the confidence one exudes when he/she knows that they can survive just about any attack. When one is confident, they show it, and become less a target on the street. We have thousands of graduates, only a few have been attacked or forced to defend themselves. We sincerely believe it is because our, (or any advanced student of the martial arts, including guns)students are not selected as victims.

Marty Hayes, Director
The Firearms Academy of Seattle, Inc.
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