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Old August 19, 2014, 05:00 PM   #1
tangolima
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Slinging up

I like history and l am into collecting old military arms. Certainly I shoot what I collect too. Naturally I would like to shoot accurately.

From time to time, people come suggest I should sling up. Wrap the sling around my left arm so that the rifle butt presses against my shoulder. It helps. I never have served in any armed force, but I am not sure how often any soldier would sling up in battle. It is so clumsy that one may just get himself killed before he can hit anybody.

Your input and comments are welcome. Thanks.

-TL
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Old August 19, 2014, 05:06 PM   #2
AK103K
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Slinging up in the respect youre referring to, generally isnt a close range thing, and with distance, comes time.

You also have a couple of different methods of getting slung up, and using it as a hasty sling, is still pretty quick. Its usually not as stable as using it as a "cuff" type sling though.

The above Im referring to, are the military type carry slings, either web or leather, usually seen on US military rifles from the turn of the last century, up to the M16's.
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Old August 19, 2014, 06:08 PM   #3
kraigwy
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Quote:
It is so clumsy that one may just get himself killed before he can hit anybody.
Once one learns to property use the sling, and practices a bit, its not clumsy. It's comfortable and fast. Fast in and out of the sling.

Not always practical or useful in combat. If the soldier is spraying enemy in the wood line, enemy he cant see, there probably is no reason for using the sling. But if precision rifle fire is called for, it works.

The same thing can be said for the bipod, but extending a bipod is slower the "slinging up" and its not as flexible or adjustable to the environment.

I've always used the sling. Even when conditions called for it in combat. I still use it in hunting. I don't use bipods.

I was on a guided bear hunt where one of the assistant guides lectured me on the bipod vs sling. I didn't argue, but I didn't give up my sling either.

We were hunting the Bitterroot Wilderness area of Idaho. If you know the country its straight up and straight down. I was put on a stand 100 yards across a draw from the bail. Again straight up and straight down.

I had to dig out a spot to park my butt and two more spots to lock my heals to keep from sliding down the mountain. The sling was perfect in this situation. I measured the angles of the line of sight to the target and the slope of the hill I was setting on. I would have to have bipod legs about 6-8 ft long.

Ive never seen a place I couldn't use a sling. Seen several places I couldn't use a bipod.

I also use it in 3-gun. It is fast, in and out of.

Again, it takes learning to use the sling properly and practice.
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Old August 19, 2014, 08:04 PM   #4
imp
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Again, it takes learning to use the sling properly and practice.
Unfortunatly, its seldom taught anymore.
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Old August 19, 2014, 08:22 PM   #5
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Historical Thread

Reference previous thread;

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=547634

Be Safe !!!
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Old August 19, 2014, 10:03 PM   #6
tangolima
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My impression is that slinging up is fancy move people would do when they are being fired upon. There is no safe distance in combat, and battle field is always dynamic. Slinging basically ties the rifle to your left arm. You can't use your left arm and the rifle for anything else when the situation suddenly changes. Hasty sling is a bit better. But I haven't seen any photos and documentary clips showing any soldier slinging when they firing their rifles in combat.

I don't sling when I shoot. I pretty much shoot my old guns to experience what the soldiers, on either side of the line, were doing when they were fighting during the great wars.

Thank you gentlemen for your input.

-TL
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Old August 19, 2014, 10:07 PM   #7
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Quote:
Unfortunatly, its seldom taught anymore.
True there. I probably never would have been taught to sling up in sitting & prone if it wasn't for getting into Highpower NRA/TSRA matches. My dad, uncle, and a few other folks older than me tell me they were taught to sling up in the standing position with the M1 rifle. Now, that kinda makes my NRA/TSRA friends go cross eyed and foam at the mouth- but to tell you the truth- I kinda like the feel of it when I'm not in a sanctioned match.
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Old August 20, 2014, 10:03 AM   #8
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In combat I can see either using the sling or not depending on circumstances.

When hunting it's essential. Unlike bipods it can be used in positions other than prone and makes the rifle easier to carry, something that can't be said for bipods.

We spend hours and billions of electrons debating the finer points of bedding schemes, handload development and bullet seating depths. In the field the proper use of a sling will improve your practical accuracy more than all of those put together.
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Old August 20, 2014, 10:44 AM   #9
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My dad, uncle, and a few other folks older than me tell me they were taught to sling up in the standing position with the M1 rifle.
I am a poor shot with a rifle, but to get any sort of stability standing I require a sling.
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Old August 20, 2014, 01:24 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by natman
We spend hours and billions of electrons debating the finer points of bedding schemes, handload development and bullet seating depths. In the field the proper use of a sling will improve your practical accuracy more than all of those put together.
This.
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Old August 20, 2014, 02:56 PM   #11
T. O'Heir
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"...Slinging basically ties the rifle to your left arm..." Nope. It's not in any way tied to your arm. Your arm comes out of the sling immediately. It's mostly a long range shooting aid. Most combat video is staged.
"...Unlike bipods..." Nobody uses a bipod except MG'ers and maybe snipers. For the PBI, every ounce matters and bipods add unnecessary weight.
"...the proper use of a sling will improve..." Absolutely.
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Old August 21, 2014, 01:43 AM   #12
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I have read a very detailed account of two Marine Corps rifleman "slinging up" and shooting at Japanese in WWII, I think on Guadalcanal, at the mouth of the Tenaru River.

( the enemy was actually out in the ocean at some distance) . Sorry I cannot recall the text or author.

Jeff Cooper was an advocate of the military and later "ching" sling and claimed sources for rifleman slinging up, it may be in his book "The art of the rifle", which btw is a very good basic rifle book and discusses the '03 and ching sling in detail.
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Old August 22, 2014, 04:40 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bamaranger
( the enemy was actually out in the ocean at some distance) . Sorry I cannot recall the text or author.
It's from Cooper's Art of the Rifle (pages 35-36):
Quote:
After the First Marines, under Col. Clifton B Cates, ground up the Ichiki Battalion at the Tenaru River on Guadalcanal in 1942, a number of the surviving Japanese attempted to flee by swimming seaward through the shallow surf beyond the sandbar. The Marines who had the task of accounting for them found that the sand sloped down to the water's edge in such a way that the prone position was unsuitable. They looped up and hit sitting, using the '03 rifle (this was just before we adopted the M1 Garand. From the open-legged sitting position, solidly looped up, they were hitting heads out there in the water with almost every single shot. An eyewitness told me that the gunnery sergeant with that detail was meticulous in making sure that every rifleman kept his left elbow directly under the piece.
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Old August 22, 2014, 06:36 PM   #14
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The marines in the incident were apparently not in danger of any sort. The Japs were not returning fire. It was a turkey shoot. Seems it was an unusual event that the author took effort to describe the details. The Sergeant was serious about the guys were doing it right just as in boot camp and all that. If it was their usual practice in the field he probably wouldn't need to make the point.

I don't know, I still don't think people would go full slinging up in combat. Hasty sling may be more likely. Looping the fat leather sling around your left arm and keeping it tight with the keeper. I don't see how you can get the arm out of their when a jap jumps you.

-TL
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Old August 23, 2014, 11:00 AM   #15
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Quote:
In the above photo, a USMC marksman poses for a photo in the prone shooting position. He is using his sling, double wrapped and the sling is set to optimum tension. The marksman’s fore hand is supporting the forend of the 1903 Springfield rifle as far forwards as he can comfortably hold it without losing the stable triangle his elbows have formed. The forehand will also be locked in place once he settles for his shot. In this example, the marksman is actually cycling the bolt and not fully locked into position. One last and important aspect to note is that the marksman does not use any rest/aid under the forend. Although he could have used his pack, marksmen around the world were trained to shoot off their elbows, demanding an incredibly high level of skill and discipline.


http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Know...at+Forend.html
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Old August 23, 2014, 11:31 AM   #16
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I have a fine German made , 1930s ,22 that has three sling studs ! I could never find out how that worked . Finally , many years later, there was a discussion started by Col Cooper as mentioned above. Now I understand ! A long forgotten type of sling using three studs !
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Old August 23, 2014, 11:55 AM   #17
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For a fast "working" sling, the Ching slings work great. No fiddle or fuss, just thrust your arm through the loop, and youre slung up.

Ive used them on a number of rifles and they always worked well.

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Old August 23, 2014, 03:21 PM   #18
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Nothing "forgotten" about it at all. I've been using one all along (& been told it didn't exist, or wasn't used) all along.
Surprise!
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Old August 23, 2014, 03:41 PM   #19
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How do you like the "web" version?

Ive used both leather and web varieties, and found for me, the leather worked better. The webbing was to soft/flexible, and tended to foul on my arm as I tried to quickly get it in the sling.

The leather holds the "loop" open better, allowing you to get your arm in quicker and with less trouble. Seemed more firm and with less stretch too.
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Old August 24, 2014, 07:16 AM   #20
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I had a leather one on my Rem 700.

It was definitely "stiffer", but once I got used to the webbing one I was hooked.

It depends on the quality of the web strap as well, they vary from "limp & floppy" to "fairly stiff", it seems to be related to both the material & the weave. This particular web material is fairly stiff & has almost zero stretch. It was originally meant for a divers weight belt so rigidity & lack of stretch were important in the design & manufacture. You're right though many weaves have a lot of spring to them.

Also the position of the center swivel makes a difference. The 700 had its mounted offset because of the position & shape of the magazine floor-plate & bottom metal. With the No4 its a part of the floor-plate & bottom-center mounted with a canted swivel bar for the sling material. It makes a big difference.
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Old August 27, 2014, 11:31 PM   #21
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Guadalcanal

I checked in Robert Leckie's book, "Strong Men Armed" (the Marine Corps in the south Pacific) and he loosely mentions the Tenaru shooting at long range.

But I have read an even more detailed account, describing the shooters as "old school", with campaign hats and various marksman accessorries. The rank and file were missing alot, and they called these old boys up it seems.

Can't find the book/reference though.
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