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Old August 16, 2014, 03:17 PM   #51
Fisher
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I agree Gyvel. Give it time though, I am sure they will eventually spin it in their direction. The times are a changing.
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Old August 16, 2014, 08:42 PM   #52
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Correct me if I am wrong but isn’t assaulting a police officer and going for his gun both felonies?
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Old August 16, 2014, 09:09 PM   #53
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Quote:
Correct me if I am wrong but isn’t assaulting a police officer and going for his gun both felonies?
1) Yes.
2) Even so, that's one person's story. The investigation isn't completed.
3) Even so, once you put your hands up and surrender, it ends. Even in war, shooting surrendering troops is generally a war crime.
3a) Yes, that's another story. The investigation isn't completed.

It's still FAR too early for anybody to draw any conclusions about justified vs. murder.

Whether civilian, police, or military, once the threat is over due to surrender, the shooting should stop... any one of us would be thrown in jail if we kept shooting at that point. I'm eager to see what the conclusion of the investigation is regarding that.
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Old August 16, 2014, 09:25 PM   #54
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Let me ask another question. Assuming Brown did not put his hands up and was fleeing the LEO after he attacked him is that justification for shooting the suspect?
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Old August 16, 2014, 09:47 PM   #55
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"Watching from the UK, I am surprised at the use of tear gas its a indiscriminate weapon. They have had riots here that make the disorder in Ferguson, look like a stroll in the park. But I can't remember tear gas being used."
We don't get riots very often, here, and have had none in St. Louis, historically (I think that's right). So the local authorities are both unused to dealing with this new type of problem, and are overreacting because they assume such drastic unrest is due to some sort of new and uncontrollable animosity. I doubt the latter is the case, but it'd be hard to convince anyone involved of that.

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Old August 16, 2014, 11:41 PM   #56
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And here's another article about this.


According to the article,


Quote:
Ferguson and St. Louis County police teamed up to turn a tense aftermath into a disaster. They tear-gassed and shot rubber bullets at non-violent protestors.

More here: http://jpfo.org/articles-assd04/wolf...tarization.htm


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Old August 17, 2014, 06:46 AM   #57
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Who says he was surrendering? The accomplice to the robbery and friend of the dead guy? Other people? In a community with an obvious police bias? The officer was beaten. A shot was fired inside the car so the perp was in it. At BEST we have a cop suffering from head trauma and with his ears ringing off the hook from that enclosed shot, stumbling out disoriented. The felon who assaulted him is still there. Even IF he was surrendering ( and I don't believe he was) the officer had 2 seconds to determine that. All he knew was the guy who just tried to kill him is 30 feet from him. If the cop was such an executioner, why didn't he shoot the friend too?

As for the militarization, I'm fine with it. These rioters are shooting and throwing Molotov cocktails. Should we go back to 6 rounds in a revolver and 12 more in belt loops. And as for the reporters working this riot who are arrested or otherwise mistreated by police, I say tough. I've worked more the a few riots. Reporters get right into the thick of it. Have to to get the best story. Riots are confusing places. And they love it anyway. Makes for a better story. One reporter who I have never seen or read anything from had a story in today's Daily News. Had her picture in it and everything. Told a fabulous story of being stopped at gunpoint AFTER curfew. Cop pointed a rifle at her and put her on the pavement and cuffed her. She told him she was with the press and he asked for her press pass, which by her own admission was UNDER her poncho as opposed to outside it where it was supposed to be. He released her. What a story, huh?
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Old August 17, 2014, 09:09 AM   #58
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Another poster child incident in the argument for police wearing body cams ...
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Old August 17, 2014, 10:00 AM   #59
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Another poster child incident in the argument for police wearing body cams ...
Bingo!!!

BTW: Newsies are saying the Ferguson PD does not have dash cams.
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Old August 17, 2014, 10:28 AM   #60
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Most cops I know have no problem with body cams. In small departments I see them being standard. But big city? Amount of cash would be huge. And even if the patrol car had a camera they only run when the lights come on and I doubt this cop would put the lights on to tell 2 people to get out of the street.

And since these two were felons I would bet this cop knew them which is why he probably wouldn't tell 2 kids on their way to the library to move out of the middle of the street. Or do we not want cops to pay more attention to two known felons?

And even if the cop had a body cam that showed he acted right, the rabble rousers and those looting wouldn't care.
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Old August 17, 2014, 12:13 PM   #61
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And since these two were felons I would bet this cop knew them which is why he probably wouldn't tell 2 kids on their way to the library to move out of the middle of the street.
Did you assume this or do you have proof that he was?

Quote:
ST. LOUIS COUNTY – An 18-year-old shot and killed near a Ferguson apartment complex Saturday afternoon had no criminal record, according to the St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney's office
Quote:
St. Louis County Prosecutor's office confirmed that Brown had no prior misdemeanors or felonies against him.
I got these quotes from here
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Old August 17, 2014, 12:43 PM   #62
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Should we go back to 6 rounds in a revolver and 12 more in belt loops.
Nobody in this thread is saying that. Law enforcement needs the tools to defend themselves and do their jobs. But does that really include Bradleys and MRAPs?

You buy an organization enough expensive toys on the taxpayer dime, and they're going to feel compelled to use them. But are they really necessary?

Quote:
And as for the reporters working this riot who are arrested or otherwise mistreated by police, I say tough.
That's exactly the mindset that has caused this issue. The riot was confined to a rather small area centered around the Northwood and Oakmont apartment complexes. It's not as if the whole city was on fire and needed to be placed under martial law.

The police over-reacted, and they violated the civil rights of a great many people who weren't the problem.
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Old August 17, 2014, 01:22 PM   #63
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Bradleys
Who's got a Bradley?
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Old August 17, 2014, 03:33 PM   #64
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State of emergency

Seems the MO Highway Patrol singing Kumbaya with the rioters (whoops - "protesters") didn't hold the fort too long. Who'd have thunk it?

Governor Nixon has declared a state of emergency, but the good part is that firearms are not affected in any way:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Missouri Revised Statutes
Firearms and ammunition, state of emergency, no restrictions permitted.

44.101. The state, any political subdivision, or any person shall not prohibit or restrict the lawful possession, transfer, sale, transportation, storage, display, or use of firearms or ammunition during an emergency.
My wife grew up in Florissant (next door to Ferguson) and attended community college in Ferguson. A lot has changed...

Edit: Notice "display". You can carry your AR-15 if you want to. I don't advise it.
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Old August 17, 2014, 03:35 PM   #65
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The police over-reacted, and they violated the civil rights of a great many people who weren't the problem.
It's safer. People in their own backyards, journalists, and an alderman from St. Louis don't shoot back. Actual looters might.
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Old August 17, 2014, 03:58 PM   #66
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> Patriotic- yes, in some places, the use of lethal force to stop a fleeing felon is warranted.
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Old August 17, 2014, 04:44 PM   #67
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Tom Servo wrote; The police over-reacted, and they violated the civil rights of a great many people who weren't the problem.
Thank you for stating that.
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Old August 17, 2014, 04:54 PM   #68
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Homerboy wrote;
Quote:
And even if the patrol car had a camera they only run when the lights come on
This may be true in some places but, our city's dashcams run on a continuous loop and catalog both front and, rear views throughout the officers entire shift. They also capture audio both inside the car and, on a wireless mic the officer wears.
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Old August 17, 2014, 06:01 PM   #69
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I made the ground rules for this thread clear in post #20. If you found a post of yours has been deleted, it was for good reason.

This situation raises some very important civil-rights questions, and we won't see the discussion derailed by chest-beating and cop-bashing.
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Old August 17, 2014, 08:41 PM   #70
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Thanks Tom.... so back on track...

What are the legal restrictions/authority on the police when dealing with a violent mob?

If a large group of people are gathered, and some become violent, how violent does it have to get, and how many have to be part of the violence, before the police can treat the situation as a violent mob/riot?

It seems that the governor of a state can grant additional powers to the police in the situation of an ongoing violent mob, such as declaring a curfew. Is this power of the governor defined by statute, or by case law?

Jim.

BTW, I drove through the area yesterday afternoon... I would say the national media is blowing it way out of proportion. If I did not know there was a problem, I would have thought it was the school teachers on strike or something.
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Old August 17, 2014, 08:54 PM   #71
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Quote:
What are the legal restrictions/authority on the police when dealing with a violent mob?
What makes you think it's any different than any other violent suspect?

Quote:
If a large group of people are gathered, and some become violent, how violent does it have to get, and how many have to be part of the violence, before the police can treat the situation as a violent mob/riot?
Well I'd guess they can't target non-violent people, but they're probably not liable if a non-violent gets tagged by accident. Look at all the folks who were hit by ricochet in that NY shooting. The liability usually falls on the people who break the law creating the situation, not on the people trying to enforce the law. Being on the side of the people who make the law helps quite a bit in cases like that, I suspect.
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Old August 17, 2014, 09:25 PM   #72
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Massad Ayoob posted this today on his blog:
Quote:
...By the time the truth came out, most of America seemed to still believe that the deceased was a harmless, innocent victim of racism murdered by a monster who deserved to be lynched. That meme seems to be getting a repeat in Missouri.

Only days later, do we learn how savagely the officer was beaten by the physically huge man he shot. And that very shortly before the incident, the innocent college boy had performed a strong-arm robbery at a convenience store, caught on surveillance video. (This, of course, would not do, so last night looters ravaged that particular convenience store.) It has been reported that that Facebook images of Brown exist, flashing gang signs indicating membership in one of the nation’s most feared street gang, the Bloods....
There's a lot of information still missing and/or to be sorted out. As is often the case, things might not be as they initially seem.
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Old August 17, 2014, 10:09 PM   #73
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I think the issue of the alleged theft of cigars is irrelevant. He was accused but because he was unable to defend himself against that accusation, shouldn't he be assumed innocent?

Pictures of a person dressed in red colors does not make them a member of the Bloods. Nor does flashing gang signs gain you admittance to those gangs either. This kid may not have been a model student but he also had no criminal history. That's not a claim many (any?) violent gang members can make.
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Old August 17, 2014, 10:48 PM   #74
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I think the issue of the alleged theft of cigars is irrelevant. He was accused but because he was unable to defend himself against that accusation, shouldn't he be assumed innocent?
His family has admitted that was him on the store video.

So Brown knew he had just robbed the store, but the cop didn't -- but he didn't know that the cop didn't know. That could explain a lot.

What we still don't know -- at least I don't know; I haven't been keeping up this weekend -- is had he surrendered and the enraged cop murdered him? Or did he rush the cop and the cop defended himself? (I'm talking about the shots away from the car)

In either case, I doubt race had anything to do with it. I also don't give any credibility to the "gang" hand gestures thing.
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Old August 17, 2014, 11:19 PM   #75
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According to conflicting news reports Michael Brown was shot six times, i.e., hit with six bullets. FWIW that suggests very close range! However, the media reports conflict. See: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...0GI07D20140818 and http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...0GI07D20140818.

Mods: I apologize if it posting these links is improper and do not object to deletion to comply with FLF rules.
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