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Old August 13, 2014, 10:57 PM   #1
crane550
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My Quest for Better Marksmanship

Hi, as you might guess I'm new here. My goal is to shoot to shoot good groups at 1,000 yards. What is a good gun and scope to get? My budget is $450. What are some good guns that I can put a skin on like in Call of Duty : Black Ops?

Just kidding.

My name is Alex, I live in Boise, ID and have been shooting all my life, but have just recently taken more of an interest in it.

Hesitant to list my whole arsenal here online, but here is what I am shooting the most of these days:

*Remington 700 .270 ADL, I think. (no trap door.)
Nikon 12x scope. Not sure the model #, it was a $300 Walmart scope.
Boyds Thumbhole stock. Probably doesn't help grouping too much, but it's heavier, comfortable, and I like the look. This it sitting on the same stand I usually shoot with.



*Weatherby Vanguard .223
Old Leopold 9x Scope



The .223 was a Christmas gift this last year, and the one I am most excited about, mostly because the rounds are quite a bit cheaper, thus less guilt every trigger pull scattering my groupings. My theory anyways.

Here is my very first group at 100 with the .223. Pretty heavy wind that day, and about 20* out, so I think I might have a bit to improve right off the bat.

First 3 rounds (one I was finally on paper) are covered up, followed by the next 3 around the middle.



Next 6 after a little more dial tinkering.



Anyways, that is my intro. I started this thread to share my experiences and ask questions. To give you an idea of where I am going here are the next steps:

* Hand loading
* Improving bench setup
* Upgrade scope on .223 once my skill level is little enough of a factor that more gear is needed.

Thanks for tuning in!
Alex

Last edited by crane550; August 13, 2014 at 11:03 PM.
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Old August 14, 2014, 12:12 AM   #2
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First, welcome to TFL!

Second, get rid of those scope mounts on your .270. See-thru mounts are a horrible idea, even on rifles with iron sights. I tried them once and all I can say is never ever again.

Third, keep shooting the .223 and have fun with it. You'll get better with both rifles the more you shoot. Like you said the .223 is less painful on the wallet, but don't be afraid to try different ammunition even if it is a little expensive. Find what your rifle really likes and stick with it until you start hand loading.
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Old August 14, 2014, 12:17 AM   #3
crane550
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Thanks for the warm welcome. I have been thinking perhaps those scope mounts need to go. When I reef on them I swear I can feel a bit of movement. I have not looked into it yet, I'm sure the info isn't hard to find, but is there a consensus on a really good mount for a Remmy 700? Not needing anything fancy or flashy, just something that will keep the scope still. Probably the first thing I should change.

I am looking forward to spending more time with the .223.
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Old August 14, 2014, 08:54 AM   #4
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Welcome Alex, that first paragraph got a chuckle out of me this morning

There is some great information in the handloading section on this forum, start with "For the New Reloader: Equipment Basics - READ THIS FIRST" sticky. It is a great introduction and what your going to need.

Like Taylorce said, keep shooting the 223. Find out what ammo it likes and practice, practice, practice. Doing that is going to make you a better marksman with all rifles.
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Old August 14, 2014, 10:02 AM   #5
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Some of my reloading gear was not new when I acquired it in 1950. IOW, good used gear from a gun show or Craig's List will cost a lot less than the new stuff and will work just fine. Heck, I've made sub-MOA '06 ammo with an old Lyman 310 tong tool. About the only critical item is that the resizing die not be scratched from abuse.

IMO, given how many jackrabbits, coyotes, prairie dogs and deer I've killed with old Leupold Vari-X II 3-9x40 scopes, they work as well as the new stuff.

I've mostly loaded Sierra bullets. 50- and 55-grain in my .223. Done okay with the Noslers, as well. Don't know if they still do, but Sierra used to make a 52-grain HPBT that was 3/8 MOA out of my Swift and ruinacious on feral housecats at 300 to 400 yards.
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Old August 14, 2014, 11:53 PM   #6
crane550
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Made it out today and just shot the .223. I had switched my scope mounts around after last time I shot when I was up against a mechanical limit for the windage. I removed the scope, put the crosshairs right in the center and then use the coarse adjust to get it close.

First 3 shots were barely on paper at 50yd.



Then I moved it out to 100 and fine tuned. My final group of 6 is here.



What I learned:

* I need to improve flinching
* I need to remember to use breathing control
* Moving closer to the eye piece makes the target seem a lot bigger
* I am ready to move up to 200yd.

I am looking at ballistics charts. It would seem if I were sighted in at 100, I need to aim 3.5in high, according to this chart. I added in all the info based on what I know. This sound about right? I have noticed most of the pre made charts are designed for 200yd sight in. Any thoughts on this as well?



A couple pics of the setup.



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Old August 15, 2014, 10:27 AM   #7
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Quote:
I am looking at ballistics charts. It would seem if I were sighted in at 100, I need to aim 3.5in high, according to this chart. I added in all the info based on what I know. This sound about right? I have noticed most of the pre made charts are designed for 200yd sight in. Any thoughts on this as well
200 yards is generally a good hunting zero.

For a .308 150 gr SGK at 2800 FPS, with a 200 yard zero you will be just under 2 inches high at 100, and about 8 1/2 inches low at 300, so depending on where your target is, you hold appropriately.

The other alternative is using a ballistics program to calculate a Maximum Point Blank Range. With MPBR, you determine a vital zone radius, and the calculator will give you a zero that the bullet will always be within that radius.

For example, using that same .308 150 gr Sierra Gameking @ 2800 FPS and a 4 inch vital zone radius, your Maximum PBR is 308 yds, and your Maximum PBR Zero is 263 yd.

So with your rifle zeroed at 263 yards, if the target is anywhere between arms length and 308 yards, you hold dead on.

That is the idea anyway.
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Old August 15, 2014, 10:42 AM   #8
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Looking again, that ballistics chart may need some tuning.

Is your sight height really 1"? That is bore centerline to scope centerline.

Also, where you zero the rifle really depends on what you are trying to do. If you are target shooting, zero at the range you will be shooting. If you have a scope with target knobs, zero at whatever range you want, reset the knobs, and then base your come-ups off that.

On my LR Rig, I have it zeroed at 200, and I printed out my come-ups for each range and taped them to the side of the scope. So I know if my target is at 700 yards, I put 14 1/4 minutes up on the scope.
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Old August 15, 2014, 11:09 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crane550
* I am ready to move up to 200yd.
Get off that wobbly table and you'd probably cut those groups in half.

If you have a flinching problem, I would worry about fixing that before I worried about shooting at farther distances.
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Old August 15, 2014, 12:07 PM   #10
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Alex,

I have a couple of questions for you.

Do you have a chronograph?

My first question about owning a chronograph is pretty simple. If you don't know the speed of the bullet exiting the barrel of your rifle, then your going to have to figure things out a different way. If you're using the speed listed on the box of ammunition you bought it might be close, but usually what they list on the box is much different in the real world.

A chronograph isn't an expensive tool for your tool box, you can pick one up for around $100 new and sometimes much less used. Forget about the ballistics table now, without knowing your actual speed your just guessing with it. Work on small groups and finding the right ammunition for your rifle, then you can either work ballistics tables from a chronograph or shooting at different ranges.

Are you 100% sure you are flinching?

If your flinching you aren't ready to move to 200 yards. Do a lot of dry fire work with snap caps to work out your flinch. Always work on the basics sight picture, trigger, breath, and follow through, be it dry fire practice or with live rounds. Get smaller targets to work with at 100 yards "aim small, miss small".

On a huge target like that you should be aiming for the X, when you can place all six shots on the X not just inside the X-ring then go to 200 yards. The way you're grouping right now 200 yards will be a real humbling experience. Expect all six shots at 200 to at least be twice as far apart at 200 yards, with at least one shot not landing in the black on the target you're using.
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Old August 15, 2014, 12:13 PM   #11
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^^^Good advice there.^^^

You can work on 2 or 3 things at once. Dry-firing helps with trigger control, flinching and "how much" trigger finger you're using. Pay attention to the reticle when the trigger falls. For a right handed shooter, if the reticle jumps right, you're using too much finger. If it jumps left, you're not using enough. You need to center your finger on the trigger so that the force you're applying is straight back. Concentrate on slow but deliberate pressure and watching the reticle. You'll soon "forget" to flinch.
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Old August 15, 2014, 12:52 PM   #12
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In addition to the above advice, proper and consistent cheek weld and sight picture are important as well.
How you grip the rifle, how its positioned in your shoulder from shot to shot determine how it moves upon recoil.

All of these can lead to "flyers" or inconsistent groups.
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Old August 15, 2014, 12:56 PM   #13
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I didn't mean to sound cocky, what I meant to say was I'm ready to attempt 200 yards. There is a lot for me to improve for my 100yd game as well, I'm just looking forward to trying it.

The chronograph sounds like a good idea. I will see about picking one up in the next month or so.

I'm don't think I am flinching a ton, but I do notice myself tense up a bit. I'm not scared of the gun, I'm just still getting used to when it will fire. I am considering having someone look at the trigger to see if it can be lightened up just a bit. What I'm finding is I keep thinking "please go off already." The Vanguard I think has a decent trigger, but a bit of refinement might help.

As for the scope, it looks like it is a 7x, not a 9 like I thought. There is no "click" when you turn the knobs. I know a lot of scopes are designed for continual adjustment for every shot. Will I wear it out by adjusting for every shot, or is this kind of a "set it and leave it" type situation?

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Old August 15, 2014, 01:36 PM   #14
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You should never be adjusting "for every shot". Shooting at 100 and 200 yards, there is no scope adjustment necessary once you've got it zeroed. Get it sighted about an inch or inch and half high at 100 and leave it be. You'll be very close at 200. Shoot at least 3 shots and adjust your scope based on the center of that group.

The trigger on most factory guns pretty much sucks, especially for target work.

Get thyself a Timney and be done with it.
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Old August 15, 2014, 02:18 PM   #15
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Ah yes, the "Continuous Friction" windage and elevation adjustments. I have the same thing on my older Leupold VX-I. I knew about them when I bought the scope but they don't bother me since it's on my "deer rifle" where I sight it in, "set it and forget it".

For your shooting distances, like Brian said, no need for adjustments. If you get into medium to long range shooting where you have to dial in the elevation for changes in target distance, you will need to look into a different scope.
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Old August 16, 2014, 12:14 PM   #16
Bart B.
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Embarrasing Way to Learn How To Quit Flinching

Have a trusty friend hiding from your view either load or not load the rifle.

Then you shoot it from some position.

He'll be watching you very closely for two things when the chamber's empty and you think it's got a live round in it:

1. You jump and wiggle the rifle as the firing pin falls home on an empty chamber because you're anticipating the recoil shock from firing. Don't be afraid; the back end of the rifle's harmless to people.

2. Your trigger finger flies forward the instand the firing pin falls on an empty chamber wiggling the rifle a bit all by itself; a normal nervous condition that happens with so many folks. Concentrate on not doing it and it'll go away.

Both the above are hard to see when the rifle's loaded. Both of them also change the direction the muzzle's pointed from where you aimed it to when the bullet leaves.

This routine's been called "ball and dummy" for decades. I was told this a long time ago. The 'ball" is what the person loading/not-loading the rifle has when he watches the shooter flick fingers and flinch his whole body as the hammer falls on an empty. 'Dummy' is a friendly term for what the shooter who does it feels like when someone's watching. The shooter has a 'ball' after he's learned to not do those two things; hold still until the rifle stops moving from recoil and don't flick your trigger finger off the trigger when the rifle fires.

Take no offense, but it works. I won a 1000-yard match loading 42 rounds in my Garand but only 22 of them had powder in them; randomly. The real dummy in this instance was the guy in the Unit's loading room who didn't charge all the cases with powder, then issued them to our team.
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Old August 18, 2014, 06:51 AM   #17
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better

Practice. Practice. Perfect practice.
Dry fire....... you can do that in your living room.
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Old August 19, 2014, 10:25 AM   #18
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As was mentioned in the first reply those high see through rings could be factor also. It could make your cheekweld less than perfect. If your stretching to get a sight picture, then you're not as relaxed as you need to be. The scope will exaggerate any movements, heartbeat, ect. The older you get the less steady you are, at least in my experience.

The lowest rings that will allow you to cycle the bolt should be better, ergonomically. I have two rifles with high rings, but both are heavy barreled varmint type rifles and the scopes have 50mm objectives and 30mm tubes. There many makers of premium rings, but Leupold and Burris make useable bases and rings for not too much money.

Nothing substitutes for practice. One day it will all come together, your technique, ammo, rests, bench, optics, ect. It will feel natural and the target will show the results of your efforts.

Investigate reloading. Sometimes out west you can find used presses and accessories at garage and yard sales, sometimes they show up in classified adds.

Once you load your own, you can shoot as much as you like and the results will credited to your skill. Also you can make ammo you can't buy in any store. The chrono is very helpful also and like an earlier poster said a Pro-Crono is only about $100 and can be mounted on any tripod with camera adapters. Hey, good luck, and good shooting.

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Old August 20, 2014, 07:47 AM   #19
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First, welcome to the forum.

Here are a few things that I share with shooters are our range when they are trying to get the best accuracy from their rifles. I load for 7 different rifle calibers (over 21,000 rounds in the last 4 years) and have managed to get every one of them to shoot more accurately with my hand loads than with the even the best factory ammo. Maybe they'll help you, too.
My apologies in advance if you already know these things.

Having a scope mounted low enough that you don't have to raise your eye to see into the scope is critical to shooting accurately. You can't get a repeatable position unless you can get a repeatable cheek weld on the stock in the same place every time. I still have to work at this after 20 thousand rounds down range in order to shoot really small groups so I would not dismiss the need for it.

I would recommend that you check to see, especially with your .270 with the high rings, that your cheek is firmly on the stock when you are looking through the scope. If you don't change the rings, you could get a cheek pad. I have one on my Springfield Armory M1A because the rings for a M14/M1A keep the scope pretty high off the action making a cheek weld on the stock pretty difficult.

When you're trying to figure out what your rifle can do, not changing anything while shooting a group (even if they are not in the center of the bull) is important.

That means:
1. Don't mess with the scope settings until you are finished with a group - there'll be time enough to adjust the scope after you see 5 rounds in a pattern. Even if the group is off the bull, it still is telling you about the inherent repeatability of the powder-bullet combination that you are shooting.
2. Don't change your shooting position behind the scope within a group (no moving in or out or side to side because if changes the point of impact) - that also means that you'll have to learn to work the bolt without lifting your head off the stock.
3. Don't change the position of your finger on the trigger while shooting a group - several others have mentioned this too.

If you do those things, you will have a better chance to see what the rifle is doing - not what you are causing - with the bullet/powder combination you are shooting.
After you finish shooting the group, determine the center of that group and use that to center the scope on that point. The rifle should then shoot where you are aiming unless of course your scope is loose in the mounts or the reticle is not adjusting correctly or is loose.

Individual rifles are somewhat sensitive to bullet length (particularly how much of the bullet is actually touching the rifling), bullet weight, and powder.
Different load and different bullets not only vary the height of the point of impact but the variations in spin can move a group right or left depending on the differences in bullet length in the barrel.

Government surplus powder is fine for plinking but probably won't produce very good groups.
If you intend to shoot over 200 yards, it would be wise to find out what powders your rifle really likes.

My CZ 527 .223 with a 1:9 twist shoots best with the faster powders like CFE223, H335 and N133. I likes 52 and 53 grain bullets and Nosler 40 grain Ballistic Tips and averages in the 0.3 -0.4 range at 100 yards with 4 different bullet in those weights. But don't assume that the recipe will be the same for all bullets if you are interested in accuracy and don't presume that the point of impact will be the same when you change bullets or factory ammo of the same weight.

My CZ will shoot 69 grain SMKs around .6 inch groups with slower powders.
It doesn't like government surplus or Wolf steel case ammo and won't group those under 1 inch. Having an accurate rifle doesn't mean it will shoot everything accurately.

For testing loads, I use a 36X scope with a 1000 yard F-class bipod and a rear bag to take aiming and vibration out of the accuracy equation while shooting groups.
If I don't keep everything the same, I can't determine if the load is really good or if I messed up a group or got lucky and managed to jockey a bad shot into a small group.

Have fun getting used to your rifles and getting the best accuracy you can out of them.

Last edited by Rimfire5; August 20, 2014 at 07:55 AM.
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Old August 21, 2014, 08:48 PM   #20
crane550
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Thanks everyone for the advice. I will definitely be trying out these tips.

I am really looking forward to reloading. I saw this today at a pawn shop which is owned by a friend of mine. He wants $75ish for it. Good deal?



Also wondering is this scope is any good.

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Old August 21, 2014, 08:52 PM   #21
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Seems like an Okay Deal to me. Expectable pawnshop price for something like that. Id dtry to work him down to $60, I'm sure the functionality is fine, but it looks like it's in pretty rough shape.
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Old August 21, 2014, 10:33 PM   #22
emcon5
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Quote:
I saw this today at a pawn shop which is owned by a friend of mine. He wants $75ish for it. Good deal?
I don't think so. You can get a brand new RCBS press for that price.

For not much more, you can get a Lee kit with everything you need to get started.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/423...ProductFinding

Although my personal preference costs a little more, but they will last you your entire life (and then some).

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/937...ProductFinding
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Old August 22, 2014, 12:14 PM   #23
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I had the same press when I started reloading in 1975. I don't know How you could wear one out, but I guess if it fell out a truck going 75mph it could be broken.

$75 is kind of high for a press that scruffy. Pawn shop prices are more of a suggestion than carved in stone. If you could get it down to $50 I might do it. Look very closely at the threads where you screw in the dies. also be sure that it will accept a shell holder.

The press is just the 1st piece of it. You are going to need scales, dies, prep kit, shell holder, trim die or trimmer of some sort. You can dip powder until you get a powder measure. there are a gozillion accessories you are going to think you must have, but you can get started with the bare necessities.

RCBS, Hornaday, Redding, Forster, Lyman, and others make kits with everything you need except dies, shellholder and supplies, powder, primers, brass and bullets. A good reloading manual is necessary, I like the Lyman manual, it's not connected with a product, like Speer, Hornaday, Nosler, Barnes ect. There is electronic media available also. I use RCBS. load, which literally has hundreds of manuals included, but many are historical and you are warned that this data may be outdated.

If you do take up reloading there is wealth of advice available at this site and others. One more thing and very important! Always read the instructions included with the dies! The manuals don't always include the specific adjustments for the die operation. It isn't necessarily intuitive. Good luck and always look for signs of high pressure.

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Old August 22, 2014, 03:34 PM   #24
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That 4.5-14 Burris scope is definitely a good scope. Tough as nails, decent optics, and has a lifetime warranty as well. That said there is nothing wrong with the scopes you're currently using.

I don't have anything to add about the press, at $75 it's overpriced at a pawnshop.
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Old August 22, 2014, 05:24 PM   #25
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I don't think that that press is a good buy. First, it is very rough. Second, getting started is often best done with a 'kit' like the RCBS that an early post referenced. I started out with that same kit and though ultimately have swapped out/upgraded a number of pieces, was happy to have something complete to begin with.
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